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Cryohazard posted:Might be a bit late to bring this up, but I felt like Mordin becoming consumed by guilt and looking to undo his questionable legacy was a natural progression for his character. Which in turn made me finally like his character. I liked how my conversations with him in ME2 had helped him realize that sometimes the "greater good" isn't all that great. Of course I got the felling that he changes his PoV regardless of you chastising the genophage or not.
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Aug 11, 2014 16:57
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Which in turn made me finally like his character. I liked how my conversations with him in ME2 had helped him realize that sometimes the "greater good" isn't all that great. Of course I got the felling that he changes his PoV regardless of you chastising the genophage or not. If I remember correctly, I think he says his main motivation for changing viewpoints, if you agreed the genophage was right, was his old age. Like, as he was getting older and closer to death, he was having more and more trouble feeling comfortable with what he did. Perhaps he didn't want to be remembered as the one who helped kill an entire species?
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Aug 11, 2014 17:09
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Covok posted:If I remember correctly, I think he says his main motivation for changing viewpoints, if you agreed the genophage was right, was his old age. Like, as he was getting older and closer to death, he was having more and more trouble feeling comfortable with what he did. Perhaps he didn't want to be remembered as the one who helped kill an entire species? I agree. He's near the end of his life (late 30's in a species that rarely makes it to 40) and re-evaluating a lot of things. Updating the genophage was his one big regret in life, despite how often he re-assured himself that it was necessary. Traveling with Shepard and gaining new perspective on the krogan through Eve and Wrex (as well as the knowledge that the Reapers will almost certainly never allow another chance) inspired him to undo it with what little time he has left. There are a lot of things I can say this series' story got wrong, but Mordin's arc was always done right.
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Aug 11, 2014 17:31
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Yeah, that is another thing to remember. He didn't just help make the genophage. When the krogan began to cure themselves of it, he updated it to overcome this. The first time he did it, he could rationalize it as a necessity to end a war. What need was there for him to do it a second time to a krogan populous that was already in decline other than bigotry and fear?
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Aug 11, 2014 17:45
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Covok posted:Yeah, that is another thing to remember. He didn't just help make the genophage. When the krogan began to cure themselves of it, he updated it to overcome this. The first time he did it, he could rationalize it as a necessity to end a war. What need was there for him to do it a second time to a krogan populous that was already in decline other than bigotry and fear?
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Aug 11, 2014 18:02
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Covok posted:Yeah, that is another thing to remember. He didn't just help make the genophage. When the krogan began to cure themselves of it, he updated it to overcome this. The first time he did it, he could rationalize it as a necessity to end a war. What need was there for him to do it a second time to a krogan populous that was already in decline other than bigotry and fear? He mentions multiple times that the genophage isn't about eradicating the krogan population, but simply curtailing their breeding numbers to sustainable levels so they don't overrun everything again.
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Aug 11, 2014 18:04
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Cryohazard posted:Might be a bit late to bring this up, but I felt like Mordin becoming consumed by guilt and looking to undo his questionable legacy was a natural progression for his character. Yeah, I don't see why it would be hard to see he felt genuinely guilty about it and was partly only arguing with himself when he argued for it so vehemently in ME2. The biggest clue to how he was feeling was his advice to Maelon if you let him live: "Try Omega. Can always use another clinic." That felt like a moment of expressing kinship with his students' doubts and suggesting the course of action he'd taken to soothe his own guilt about what he'd done. Mordin is seriously the best character in Mass Effect. I goddamn love Mordin for having a real dramatic arc and raising real questions of ethics and morality.
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Aug 11, 2014 18:19
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Has anyone actually said that they think Mordin's progression is unnatural? The closest I've heard to that is that Lt. Danger's preference for Mordin as a character before that shift.
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Aug 11, 2014 18:30
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Having played through it again, I think the From Ashes mission ended up about half as big as it was supposed to be. It looks like they finished the first half of the level and some of the assets for the Prothean bunker, but then ended up not finishing it. I think they removed most of the objectives related to the Cerberus attack and replaced them with the objectives for the Prothean bunker, which is why you have to wander around the prefab settlement pushing buttons that make ancient Prothean things go. There's a prominent elevator in the center of the map that really doesn't make sense as just a platform for Javik's pod. I would bet the original concept was that that elevator would take you down into the Prothean bunker, and the settlement area involved activating the elevator and trying to figure out what Cerberus was up to. Also, now that I've reinstalled the game and played through a few hours of it, I'm already sick of Cerberus. They are really overused. That other LP that was linked has a couple very annoying nerds getting really smug about the most superficial complaints imaginable, but one of the smarter couple of people did say something that I think is correct: Mass Effects 2 and 3 are very bad about introducing villains and conflicts that don't go anywhere. Cerberus in general in ME3 is the most egregious example. Kai Leng is another.
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Aug 11, 2014 18:35
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Arglebargle III posted:Also, now that I've reinstalled the game and played through a few hours of it, I'm already sick of Cerberus. They are really overused. The alternative is to fight Reaper forces the entire game which would be even more bland. Although you could argue that good game designers would put you in conflicts where other races show up but that's more armchair game design. Lt. Danger: love your analysis of the Crucible. Unfortunately, the execution of the concept is awful. I love some things in Mass Effect 3 dearly: the music, the updated engine, the combat, Mordin/tuchanka, and Rannoch. Great to retouch on this game after being so turned off after the first playthrough.
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Aug 12, 2014 22:01
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Thwomp posted:The alternative is to fight Reaper forces the entire game which would be even more bland. So presumably there's a thematic reason why the writers decided to make Cerberus pull a huge army out of a hat instead.
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Aug 12, 2014 22:40
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Cerberus have spent the entire series since game 1 pulling unlimited funds and manpower out of a magical hat, why should things be any different after the Reapers show up? Cerberus has never made sense, even in ME2 they didn't make sense.
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Aug 12, 2014 23:48
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Okay, this is going to be just "how the game could have been better" but it's still within the confines of the Crucible ending: The Kid is unnecessary as a stand-in for the Reapers as a whole. Sovereign said "each of us is a nation," a concept woefully unexplored in the dead reaper level of Mass Effect 2. In the Synthesis ending it's pretty clear that the Reapers hold the knowledge of the last cycles. In my mind, this is because their bodies house the consciousness of the harvested races. They do after all liquify people and shlurk them up, and it's probably not to make all those metal parts. So what does this have to do with the ending -- well, there are a lot of dead humans lying around. More if Shepard hasn't been doing her sidequests. Why have The Kid stand in for both those lost on Earth and the Reapers? Why not just have someone, or someones, who you actually knew stand in for them? The Crucible already has you interface with the Core Mind of the Reapers, or whatever. Why not have Vermire Sacrifice hanging out there in Crystal Toga Holodeck (or something like that) along with other dead humans? Why brutishly insert a symbol for the dead when you've got Kaidan and Ashley and a bunch of other potentially dead characters sitting on the game disk? The Crucible is also notable for having no "bad end." If you go into the endgame with low enough warscore, it might be nice to have Shepard lose his argument with the Reapers. You know like "hey I wanna control you" and "NO SHEPARD THAT WOULD BE WORSE THAN THE ALTERNATIVE FOR SEVERAL REASONS" and "oh okay I kinda see your point, immortal machines with the wisdom of gods." That brings us to the Crucible's magic. That the Crucible's function isn't even addressed at all throughout the game is a bit of a problem. Things like that need some sort of justification to maintain a sense of internal consistency in the story, especially in science fiction. At its worst that can devolve into technobabble where the writers do want to use a wizard to end the story but don't want to admit it. But in Mass Effect, we actually have an appropriate explanation for what the Crucible does: indoctrination. From ME3 itself we know that indoctrination predates the Reapers. Why not have it work both ways? Normally the Reapers with brains the size of a skyscraper wouldn't have to worry, but with an organic brain, a "catalyst," amplified by the Crucible, "a space for smelting and purifying the essence of substances" indoctrination could be reversed, and the Reapers could be forced to submit to a new will. Forced by, say, a conversation. That's just me though.
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Aug 12, 2014 23:48
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Neruz posted:Cerberus have spent the entire series since game 1 pulling unlimited funds and manpower out of a magical hat, why should things be any different after the Reapers show up? To be fair, the game eventually gives us a fig leaf explanation for where Cerberus is getting their hoards of faceless grunts this time around. I'd say that Bioware uses lots of Cerberus mobs to give The Illusive Man some narrative presence without actually putting him on screen. It's the same way they used Saren and the Geth in Mass Effect 1. Excluding the final boss fights, the only time Shepard and Saren interact is when they taunt each other over the space radio at the beginning of the game. For the rest of ME1 you're always foiling Saren's plans, killing Saren's lieutenants, defeating Saren's army, storming Saren's base, and so on. The narrative is focused around stopping Saren even though you never actually stop Saren himself until the end of the game. To steal a point from Lt. Danger's Neverwinter Nights 2 LP, it's nearly impossible to have a video game villain and player character meet without the PC just straight murdering the bad guy. It's one of the unavoidable consequences when you make violence a primary way of interfacing with the game world. Saren and The Illusive Man can't directly interact with the player, so instead we interact with their proxies. Cerberus makes for good fodder enemies because they allow Admiral Hackett to ask “What's The Illusive Man up to?” at the end of every mission. It keeps TIM relevant and involved with the story while still being safely out of the player's reach.
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Aug 13, 2014 00:20
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I'm pretty sure that the finalized Cruicible weapon you employ in the endgame is indeed supposed to be similar to indoctrination, just on a galactic scale and with a different goal from Reaper indoctrination. The superior Green ending at least I originally interpreted as basically taking the indoctrination process and reapplying it to the entire galaxy with the end goal of unifying both forms of life, rather than the end goal of creating new slaves. Indoctrination is more than just some kind of mind control; it appears throughout the series to have a physical component as well making it more like a process by which the essence of a being can be modified. The Green ending then turns this factor up to 11 in order to break free of the whole "Organic intelligence evolves, develops, builds synthetic intelligence, both types of intelligence then come into conflict and are destroyed." (Basically the exact same process the Quarians and the Geth are going through) which is of course literally the entire point of both the Reapers and the story.
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Aug 13, 2014 00:27
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Arglebargle III posted:Okay, this is going to be just "how the game could have been better" but it's still within the confines of the Crucible ending: Obviously Bioware spent a lot of time investing Shepard and the player into connecting this innocent child with all the innocents on Earth being slurped up by the Reapers. Is it the best symbol to use at that moment? No. Why? The child isn't enough and/or Bioware didn't do enough to make him a representative symbol. He isn't rooted enough in the player's experience to conjure up enough emotion. I do think someone at Bioware was on the to real ticket though: the dead characters. You already have them speaking up during the dream sequences (depending on how many have died). Then you can have the Reaper Hive Mind take each dead character's form to express different emotions in an attempt to dissuade you from activating the tool of their destruction. Perhaps manipulative but also with each contributing their own spin on what's happening. Then you've got instant connection. Also, I always thought the game missed a huge opportunity by making TIM's new lieutenant the no-name Kai Leng instead of the Virmire Casualty. quote:That brings us to the Crucible's magic. That the Crucible's function isn't even addressed at all throughout the game is a bit of a problem. Things like that need some sort of justification to maintain a sense of internal consistency in the story, especially in science fiction. At its worst that can devolve into technobabble where the writers do want to use a wizard to end the story but don't want to admit it. But in Mass Effect, we actually have an appropriate explanation for what the Crucible does: indoctrination. From ME3 itself we know that indoctrination predates the Reapers. Why not have it work both ways? Normally the Reapers with brains the size of a skyscraper wouldn't have to worry, but with an organic brain, a "catalyst," amplified by the Crucible, "a space for smelting and purifying the essence of substances" indoctrination could be reversed, and the Reapers could be forced to submit to a new will. Forced by, say, a conversation. I think if the Crucible was consistent with the themes presented, it would've worked better. As Lt. Danger is pointing out, the central conflict is of creator vs created. This supersedes the Organic vs Synthetic motif often presented more front and center (Grunt/Miranda and their battle to be more than a genetic perfection, Samara and her children, the Salarians and the Korgan, etc). For the races of the galaxy, brought up unknowingly on Reaper tech for Reaper goals, to take Reaper tech and transform it into the instrument of their liberation is a narratively coherent plot and would make the Crucible quite appropriate. It doesn't matter exactly how, only that the Reapers are brought down by the collective work of cycles of civilizations (and in a way they never anticipated expressly as they are the collective experience of previous cycles). However, the Crucible is presented as another tool of the Reapers for a conflict that's only partially related to the overall themes of the series. That's where its purpose and abilities fall apart. You could even keep the original three choices if the purpose of the tool is consistent. You've constructed a way to stop the Reapers and break the cycle. You can control them, destroy them, or 'X' third choice because Sythnesis is really dumb and so is the early leaked "Merge with them" option. What would Merging with them even mean? Somehow restoring the knowledge of the previous cycles? But the Crucible still remains this weapon that uses the Reaper's own tech (the mass relays to spread the signal) against them.
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Aug 13, 2014 04:01
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Oh drat TIM's new lieutenant being a reanimated huskified Virmire Casualty could have been a really good storyline.
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Aug 13, 2014 04:14
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Neruz posted:Oh drat TIM's new lieutenant being a reanimated huskified Virmire Casualty could have been a really good storyline. If you were willing to write off having nuked them, then yes. It'd kind of be pushing it to say that the geth killed them all and stole the bodies that fast though. VVVVVVVVVVV fair enough to that. FoolyCharged fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 04:27
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FoolyCharged posted:If you were willing to write off having nuked them, then yes. It'd kind of be pushing it to say that the geth killed them all and stole the bodies that fast though. I'd be much more willing to go with it than a lame 90s comic reject who shows up without much introduction and never goes anywhere.
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Aug 13, 2014 04:31
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FoolyCharged posted:If you were willing to write off having nuked them, then yes. It'd kind of be pushing it to say that the geth killed them all and stole the bodies that fast though. More than Shepard's dead frozen corpse being brought back to life?
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Aug 13, 2014 04:34
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Yeah we put Shepard back together after he suffocated in space and then went through reentry to fall onto a planet in a spacesuit, I can believe that there was enough of the Virmire Casualty left to Huskify.
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Aug 13, 2014 04:59
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I think the obvious missing option is telling them to leave. If they're so concerned about preserving organic life, they can go do it in some other galaxy. They've got the genetic templates to seed thousands of galaxies with intelligent life. You might accidentally cause an alien invasion for someone else millions of light years away and millions of years later but who cares.
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Aug 13, 2014 05:15
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Arglebargle III posted:
Not for nothing, but if you go in with a low enough war score the Crucible blows everything up. I'd call that a bad ending.
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Aug 13, 2014 05:47
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Arglebargle III posted:I think the obvious missing option is telling them to leave. If they're so concerned about preserving organic life, they can go do it in some other galaxy. They've got the genetic templates to seed thousands of galaxies with intelligent life. You might accidentally cause an alien invasion for someone else millions of light years away and millions of years later but who cares. There's no point in doing that; the organic life will just evolve, build synthetic intelligence and then go to war with the synthetic intelligence. The Reapers are just a holding pattern; the Cruicible\Reaper\Leviathan AI was unable to come up with a way to solve the cycle of Organic - Synthetic - Destruction so it came up with a way to 'preserve' various lifeforms that arose, both organic and synthetic, until such time in the future as a solution could be determined. The Reapers aren't a solution to anything, they're just the Cruicible's way of buying itself more time.
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Aug 13, 2014 05:56
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Neruz posted:Oh drat TIM's new lieutenant being a reanimated huskified Virmire Casualty could have been a really good storyline. Instead of the cereal killer we got. God I hate that guy.
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Aug 13, 2014 06:13
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Instead of the cereal killer we got. God I hate that guy. It's funny how the more you know about his character, the worse he gets.
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Aug 13, 2014 06:57
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Neruz posted:Yeah we put Shepard back together after he suffocated in space and then went through reentry to fall onto a planet in a spacesuit, I can believe that there was enough of the Virmire Casualty left to Huskify. Maybe the planet's atmosphere is thin and falling objects don't burn up as much as they do in Earth's atmosphere. I can believe that the body was intact enough to fix. However, this is what happened to the Virmire Casualty:  This, compounded with the actual concussive shock of the bomb shattering the bones, means that it's ridiculously unlikely that there's any piece of the Casualty left that is larger than a quarter. The subsequent radiation would further destroy or mutate any possible remaining biological matter beyond the point of genetic recovery for cloning purposes.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:17
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Inco posted:Maybe the planet's atmosphere is thin and falling objects don't burn up as much as they do in Earth's atmosphere. I can believe that the body was intact enough to fix. Depends, only one of them was actually near the bomb. I forget which one was where but it was possible to have the Virmire Casualty be in the control tower rather than next to the bomb. Also you get a pretty good look at the planet in the opening cinematic and it has some pretty dense cloud cover as well as a pretty pronounced atmosphere 'fuzz' on the edges and you see flames beginning to appear around his body as he drops away so no the planet's atmosphere isn't thin at all. Its magic, the reason Shepard was able to be brought back is magic, plain and simple. The people writing the story did not understand space at all.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:24
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The truth is that Shepard is a Reaper.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:50
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The Prothean mission was really interesting, and it's a shame it's DLC. I know one person who bought ME3, and that was from a sale after all the negative press, so no Javik for them. I didn't get any DLC for the second game but I don't think I missed anything important. I think I get the basic idea of the Crucible being a anti-Reaper weapon based on Reaper-guided technology constructed by successive species, but I don't understand how it works. What information do successive builders actually bring into it? Does it exist as a physical construct somewhere, or is it always built from scratch? Why don't the Reapers reset its progress? If the Reapers aren't aware of it, how has it been kept secret? What if a species never finds out about the Crucible and doesn't add any meaningful progress to the thing? Also, doesn't the construct cheapen the player's role? I mean, aren't the people who came up with the idea in the first place the real heroes of the story? Of course, it might be entirely intentional and a logical extreme of the 'problem and solution both inherited from the past' theme that was there already in the first game, where Shepard used the preparations of the Protheans to win. Yet the player is not just another link in the chain (which might've been an interesting take) but gets to actually use the thing and decide things. It's in a weird place. It does create another parallel between Shepard and Javik, though, with both being heroes (commanders  ) of their time but irrelevant in the Reaper cycle.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:53
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The idea is that each cycle the species involved dig up the plans for the crucible that were hidden somewhere by members of the previous cycle and add to the design, each cycle they solve another problem here, another problem there, but always fail to finish the device so they hide the plans somewhere for the next cycle. Finally by the time its reached us there is only one more problem to solve (the Catalyst). Given what you learn in the Leviathan DLC about the origins of the Reapers odds are the plans were originally set in motion by a Leviathan which explains why it uses indoctrination techniques. The Reapers not preventing this does actually make sense too, the Reaper AI wants to find a solution to the cycle and the Crucible is potentially exactly that so it has no reason to want to prevent it from being developed. Assuming that the Reaper AI ever even noticed this was happening since the Reapers aren't really good at details. Plus the Reaper AI is sort of part of the Crucible and its possible that in fact the Catalyst has been the only missing part this whole time so 
Neruz fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 08:56
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Yeah as that other guy said the game introduces two origins for the crucible and it's confusing. If the reapers want the crucible completed, why keep killing the people working on it? Also the information you need to make any sense of the ending are in two DLCs which only adds to the sense that it was all pulled out of someone's rear end.
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Aug 13, 2014 09:37
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Arglebargle III posted:Yeah as that other guy said the game introduces two origins for the crucible and it's confusing. If the reapers want the crucible completed, why keep killing the people working on it? Also the information you need to make any sense of the ending are in two DLCs which only adds to the sense that it was all pulled out of someone's rear end. They have to keep turning life into Reapers because if they leave the organic life alone it does like the Quarians did, makes the Geth and then ends up being destroyed. From the Reaper's perspective they are actually saving the organic life they Reaperize, literally saving it, as in computer like saving it in the form of a Reaper so that in the future when the problem is fixed they can 'download' all the important parts about each form of life from their Reaper form and everything can be wonderful. The Reapers biggest failure is in not recognising Shepard as being the solution to the cycle until the cycle has already started again.
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Aug 13, 2014 10:14
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But this is piecing together the core issues from information mostly provided in the DLC and mostly introduced in the last ten minutes of the game. Yes the themes have been there for a while but they were just themes until being transformed into plot points in a big asterisk on the back end of ME3*.
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Aug 13, 2014 10:56
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"just themes"
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Aug 13, 2014 11:26
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Hey man, in my mind thematic appropriateness doesn't excuse other store a problem. Having a theme is great, but it's not enough to carry a story.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:24
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Neruz posted:They have to keep turning life into Reapers because if they leave the organic life alone it does like the Quarians did, makes the Geth and then ends up being destroyed. From the Reaper's perspective they are actually saving the organic life they Reaperize, literally saving it, as in computer like saving it in the form of a Reaper so that in the future when the problem is fixed they can 'download' all the important parts about each form of life from their Reaper form and everything can be wonderful. The issue being that the second and third games sabotage this premise by failing to prove the Geth as a relevant threat to the player's objectives, and allowing the player to (seemingly) diffuse the overall AI conflict in this cycle while making AI buddies. It's not that the Geth don't represent a part of the setting that illustrates the series themes, or that the Reapers goals don't make sense in a vacuum. It's just easy for players to dismiss because the series treats it's character conflicts and non-Reaper plots so shallowly, and they've been lead to believe that they've solved that problem multiple times. At the end of this game more lip service will be given to the Krogan ending all life in the galaxy than AIs, which is also thematically appropriate as well as hilarious. That's a real issue with the events of the game though, and it's the muddy execution of the various plots that causes the ending to not resonate despite being appropriate in concept.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:46
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I think if they had done more to sell the Catalyst as a fundamentally broken AI people might have accepted it more. Because you're right, making peace with the geth and the quarians proves that organics and synthetics can live together in peace. But all the Catalyst can think of is what if the humans build an AI that rebels, or what if the asari do, or what if some race on the other side of the galaxy that the Citadel races have never encountered builds a hostile AI. What if what if what if. The Catalyst is stuck, but the big conversation at the end shows no real sign of this. You can't call it out, not really, and they don't really show that it's stuck. It just makes big declarative statements about how your opinions don't matter whenever you point something out to it. Which is weird, considering how often Shepard got to call people out on their bullshit ways of thinking before.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:06
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I don't disagree that there's a possible solution there, and it's interesting, but the logical conclusion to that is probably not going to be blowing up the relays and causing massive change to the galaxy in order to remove dependence on past structures, which I don't think would be right for the story either. Proving the Catalyst wrong and protecting status quo would be a soft "good" ending that's ultimately unchallenging. It's not like the ending overall doesn't work from an academic point of view, it's the stated in-game rationale which feels unearned and causes players to reject the premise.
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Aug 13, 2014 17:01
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Polaron posted:I think if they had done more to sell the Catalyst as a fundamentally broken AI people might have accepted it more. Because you're right, making peace with the geth and the quarians proves that organics and synthetics can live together in peace. But all the Catalyst can think of is what if the humans build an AI that rebels, or what if the asari do, or what if some race on the other side of the galaxy that the Citadel races have never encountered builds a hostile AI. What if what if what if. The Catalyst is stuck, but the big conversation at the end shows no real sign of this. You can't call it out, not really, and they don't really show that it's stuck. It just makes big declarative statements about how your opinions don't matter whenever you point something out to it. It might have been a bit more interesting if the Catalyst knew the problem he was solving is nonsense, but had to keep at it because that's what he was created to do. It would explain why he just kind of gives up with some silly excuse. "One half-dead human made it to the control room (with my help)? Welp, this isn't working afterall, here's how to kill me". Unfortunately you are supposed to take his motivations at face value.
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