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That doesn't mean they don't spy on other countries. Edit: also malevolence doesn't imply competence.
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Aug 11, 2014 20:40
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Of course France is spying on the U.S. Everyone is spying on everyone. Israel has shown several times that it's willing to take the practice well beyond just observation and reporting and actively work to steal poo poo from the Americans, so yeah they're a pretty good No. 1 threat.
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Aug 11, 2014 20:48
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Israel has literally murdered Americans in cold blood. Spying isn't going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back
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Aug 11, 2014 20:51
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senae posted:Isn't their [France's] intelligence agency pretty highly regarded? Remember they're the idiots who blew up Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior ship in New Zealand and got caught doing it. Cat Mattress posted:A country whose military commissions their computer servers from the Chinese isn't a country whose intelligence services should be considered as being halfway competent, or even existing at all. Yeah, the French are really cutting out the middle man, the Chinese need to pay the Israelis for US military secrets.
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Aug 11, 2014 20:55
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Ddraig posted:Israel has literally murdered Americans in cold blood. Spying isn't going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back Every time this comes back up I just cannot believe that the US ignores the classic comic villain behaviour. I mean, they machine gunned the life boats!
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Aug 11, 2014 20:58
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Ddraig posted:Zionism was literally a supremacist movement. Ashkenazi Jews are the ideal in Israel, naturally. . Are you Israeli? I'd like to hear more about this from an Israeli goon because my understanding from the Israelis that I've encountered is that Mizrahi is the ideal, since it's the True Jewishness of The Land of Israel. Like Israel has done a pretty good job of promoting the Mizrahi Hebrew variant, Mizrahi liturgy and of course discouraging Yiddish use. I've only ever spoken English with Israelis because they never speak Yiddish and my Hebrew is limited to the liturgical kind (and classic New York Ashkenazi liturgical Hebrew at that). Also they eat hummus. And couscous. And look down on my huge sandwiches and obesity. #NoTrueAshkenazi
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Aug 11, 2014 21:01
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HortonNash posted:Every time this comes back up I just cannot believe that the US ignores the classic comic villain behaviour. I mean, they machine gunned the life boats! Wait, I thought we're talking about Rachel Corrie and such. Is this the Liberty? I thought repeated inquiries found it to be an escalation from mistaken identity. What's your source for them machine-gunning the life boats? ETA: Bloodnose posted:Are you Israeli? I'd like to hear more about this from an Israeli goon because my understanding from the Israelis that I've encountered is that Mizrahi is the ideal, since it's the True Jewishness of The Land of Israel. It's been kind of a complicated development. There was a lot of noble savage sentiment, first to the Arab natives of Palestine, then to Middle Eastern Jews, but it was always mixed with paternalism, and their treatment by the government throughout the 1950's especially was horrible. This is what led to the strong Mizrahi base for Likud. The various Arab countries really lost a few good chances to gut Israel. Had they not forced Jews to relinquish their Arab citizenships in order to leave, or denied entry to anyone with an Israeli passport, they may have been able to recoup those Jews, and it would have made Israel's position much harder. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Aug 11, 2014 |
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Aug 11, 2014 21:02
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HortonNash posted:Every time this comes back up I just cannot believe that the US ignores the classic comic villain behaviour. I mean, they machine gunned the life boats! I think the worst part of this is the secret ceremony to honor the incident. Talk about your own government loving you over to maintain relations. Israel sinks a US vessel, fires machine guns at the lifeboats and the US 'honors' the survivors/deceased with a ceremony that is swept under the carpet to not annoy Israel.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:04
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Wait, I thought we're talking about Rachel Corrie and such. Is this the Liberty? I thought repeated inquiries found it to be an escalation from mistaken identity. What's your source for them machine-gunning the life boats? Survivor accounts. It's discussed on the Wikipedia page ("Israeli ships' actions after the torpedo hit").
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Aug 11, 2014 21:07
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Bloodnose posted:Are you Israeli? I'd like to hear more about this from an Israeli goon because my understanding from the Israelis that I've encountered is that Mizrahi is the ideal, since it's the True Jewishness of The Land of Israel. Not Israeli, but I spent time there. If someone better informed wants to gainsay me I'll concede. Mizrahi are often considered merely 'Arabs' by white Israelis, who formed the majority of the pre-48 Zionist movement and form the majority of the government. Remember that the majority of Mizrahi are descendants of people who fled nations like Yemen, Iran and Iraq when they became seen as 'fifth columnists', and the rest were indigenous inhabitants of Palestine. It's also amongst the Ashkenazi and Sephardi (white, Northern and Southern European respectively) that you see the majority of 'Torah Studies' and literal 'refuse to recognise the legitimacy of the state of Israel' guys. As such Mizrahi are overrepresented in the army and spend a lot of time defending settlements comprised of people who refuse to serve with them (Hebron being the worst). Even the term itself is something that has been 'reclaimed', as thirty years or so back it was usually an insult. Yiddish is discouraged because it's not Hebrew. Ladino and Arabic (the main Sephardi and Mizrahi languages respectively) aren't popular either although at least Arabic is technically recognised unlike the others. e: correction: it's a bit inaccurate to say Mizrahim mainly spoke Arabic as theoretically it includes groups for as far away as Georgia. Apologies. Obliterati fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Aug 11, 2014 |
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Aug 11, 2014 21:10
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I'd kind of like someone on Fox News to bring up the Liberty incident, framing it as "which do you support more, are troops or Israel?".
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Aug 11, 2014 21:11
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computer parts posted:It's probably because I don't drink coffee actually. Why are you such a bigot? Coffee drinkers unite!
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Aug 11, 2014 21:14
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Obliterati posted:It's also amongst the Ashkenazi and Sephardi (white, Northern and Southern European respectively) that you see the majority of 'Torah Studies' and literal 'refuse to recognise the legitimacy of the state of Israel' guys.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:15
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GrumpyDoctor posted:Survivor accounts. It's discussed on the Wikipedia page ("Israeli ships' actions after the torpedo hit"). Unlike Hilary's usage above, this seems to be an incident with literal fog, or rather smoke, of war. I don't think it's appropriate to just cite the most negative interpretation by the legitimately aggravated survivors as absolute truth. Radbot posted:I'd kind of like someone on Fox News to bring up the Liberty incident, framing it as "which do you support more, are troops or Israel?". Except that it seems that a lot of the support for the hostile intent interpretation leaks towards the conspiracy theory crowd, and that may have negative consequences in the long run for American Jews. It'll be kind of darkly amusing to start with, sure.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:16
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Ddraig posted:Israel has literally murdered Americans in cold blood. Spying isn't going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back Whenever i hear this conspiracy theory bruited about, I have to wonder: What was the motivation for Israel to attempt to wantonly murder hundreds of Americans? You must have one in mind.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:19
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Unlike Hilary's usage above, this seems to be an incident with literal fog, or rather smoke, of war. I don't think it's appropriate to just cite the most negative interpretation by the legitimately aggravated survivors as absolute truth. I don't either, but that's where the allegations come from.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:20
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The Insect Court posted:Whenever i hear this conspiracy theory bruited about, I have to wonder: What was the motivation for Israel to attempt to wantonly murder hundreds of Americans? You must have one in mind. Actual historical events are now conspiracy theories? You're not even trying now, shut the gently caress up.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:22
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The Insect Court posted:Whenever i hear this conspiracy theory bruited about, I have to wonder: What was the motivation for Israel to attempt to wantonly murder hundreds of Americans? You must have one in mind. The Wikipedia article provides several reasons why Israel might not want American sigint to be aware of some of its movements, but that assumes that Israel would be confident enough that this is the only American sigint asset in the area to be worth the potential ramifications. Israeli policymakers and diplomats had been spending the last 10 years recovering from the embarrassment of not playing nice with US interests in the Suez War, it doesn't seem to me like it makes sense for anyone in the chain of command to make such a decision.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:23
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The Insect Court posted:Whenever i hear this conspiracy theory bruited about, I have to wonder: What was the motivation for Israel to attempt to wantonly murder hundreds of Americans? You must have one in mind. Again you attribute everything to conspiracy theories to try and discredit posts. You are extremely lame. Your posts are super poo poo and your logic, or lack thereof, when posting what you think is an opposing viewpoint is terrible. What's your next rebuttal, anti-cementitisms? Agrajag fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Aug 11, 2014 |
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Aug 11, 2014 21:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It's been kind of a complicated development. There was a lot of noble savage sentiment, first to the Arab natives of Palestine, then to Middle Eastern Jews, but it was always mixed with paternalism, and their treatment by the government throughout the 1950's especially was horrible. This is what led to the strong Mizrahi base for Likud. When I'd expect a running class of European Zionists to get all the savage Mizrahis eating kreplach and speaking the proper Mama Loshyn (what we call Yiddish in Yiddish).
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Aug 11, 2014 21:24
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What difference does it make, whether the Liberty was a ~~conspiracy~~ or whether it was a truly epic fuckup with American deaths brushed under the rug (the last part is indisputable, objective history btw)?
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Aug 11, 2014 21:26
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Incase the sinking of the USS liberty isn't sufficient to prove that Israel doesn't give a gently caress about its allies and that America doesn't give a gently caress about its own citizens when it comes to Israel, there's always the pleasant incident that happened around the start of the conflict. A Palestinian teenager was forced to drink gasoline and then burned alive. His American cousin that came to attend his funeral was detained by the IDF, beaten brutally and was told to lie about the cause of his cousin's death by saying it was a family dispute.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:28
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Are we really discussing the validity of the USS Liberty attacks in 2014 now. 
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Aug 11, 2014 21:29
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The Insect Court posted:Whenever i hear this conspiracy theory bruited about, I have to wonder: What was the motivation for Israel to attempt to wantonly murder hundreds of Americans? You must have one in mind. Jesus, I've never seen anyone with a more apt giant red-text avatar. Essentially every one of your posts is you putting words in someone's mouth and then attacking them for your erroneous interpretation.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:29
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Bloodnose posted:Why do those guys even immigrate though? Like my family has always been against going to Israel because of the firm belief that only the Moshiach can bring the Jews to Zion and found a Jewish state. My father always joked that our true ancestral homeland is a barren scrap of dirt in Poland that now hosts a backhoe factory. If you think Israel is illegitimate and anti-Jewish, why go there and pay taxes and stuff? Well we're getting a little beyond my knowledge but a lot of those guys were fleeing the Soviet Union, and given the anti-Semitic nature of the Soviets in many cases it's hard to blame them. It's also not uncommon for taxes to just be evaded, and if you're not working then you're definitely not paying any. The Israeli state has real difficulty with some of these guys: here's an absolutely terrible video I filmed a few years ago in Jerusalem's main ultra-Orthodox neighbourhood. Apologies for whatever the processing button did to it (also for the commenter who wants to talk about how the ancient Romans were all paedophiles  ). I'm standing in the midst of the counter-protest led by what appeared to be Greens.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkuN_6nNGMI They're shouting at the cars for driving on Shabbat (that is of course the shouting you hear). It's a weekly protest out there that requires the police and IDF to physically hold them back, although the worst assault I witnessed was kids spitting on the vehicles. I only have the word of an anti-Zionist Jewish Australian friend for the chant that went up later, and I don't think it's in this video so take it with a pinch of salt, but apparently what gets shouted at the police keeping them off the road is 'Nazis'. (the video also misses them asking me why I don't keep Shabbat, so again just my word for it) e: basically the strangest thing about Israel other than its relationship with Palestine is that this is the first time in two millennia all these very different strands of Judaic theology have had to share the same space: I once described it as like moving all strains of Protestantism to southern Germany. How well do Jehovah's Witnesses and Quakers get on? Obliterati fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Aug 11, 2014 |
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Aug 11, 2014 21:30
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Bloodnose posted:But do you think the ultimate result of it was Ashkenazi melting into Mizrahi culture? Because that's what I feel like when I meet an Israeli named Lev Goldstein (like the Ashkenaziest name, for the uninitiated goyim) and he can't speak Yiddish and pronounces final tavs as 't' sounds and eats weird Araby food. Well, I think you're reading too much into this change of pronunciation. Several prominent linguists of the group who revamped Hebrew into a modern language were influenced by some aspects of Sefardi and Mizrahi pronunciation, but that didn't translate into respect for Mizrahi Jews. You will also note that upper-class Ashkenazi Jews pronounce soft Kaf and Het in the same way, as in the Ashkenazi pronunciation, and the Sefardi/Mizrahi/Arab distinction between the two is a sign of a lower class affectation that up-and-comers try to suppress. Yes, Ashkenazi Zionists were rejecting the Ashkenazi Diaspora, and acclimated into some Middle Eastern cultural and culinary aspects, but while many of them would love to go to an Arab-owned restaurant for authentic cuisine, they are not as happy about Arabs or Palestinians with political power that might threaten their hegemony.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:31
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Bloodnose posted:But do you think the ultimate result of it was Ashkenazi melting into Mizrahi culture? Because that's what I feel like when I meet an Israeli named Lev Goldstein (like the Ashkenaziest name, for the uninitiated goyim) and he can't speak Yiddish and pronounces final tavs as 't' sounds and eats weird Araby food. You seem to be confusing Tsabar culture with Mizrahi culture, the Tsabar identity has always considered itself superior to the the diaspora jewish identity, The original Tsabar's were for all intents and purposes the russian zionists of the first Aliyah circa 1880s, over time naturally their own identity diverged and became unique and naturally it integrated elements of both the Palestinian culture and over time (after the establishment of Israel mostly) of the Mizrahi immigrants.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:31
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Ddraig posted:Incase the sinking of the USS liberty isn't sufficient to prove that Israel doesn't give a gently caress about its allies and that America doesn't give a gently caress about its own citizens when it comes to Israel, there's always the pleasant incident that happened around the start of the conflict. Israel also killed an American in the attack on the Mavi Marmara, and the U.S. didn't do poo poo about it.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:32
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The Insect Court posted:Whenever i hear this conspiracy theory bruited about, I have to wonder: What was the motivation for Israel to attempt to wantonly murder hundreds of Americans? You must have one in mind. Um, duh, it was because they're psychotic bloodthirsty Jews who can't control their savagery and must murder everything they see.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:37
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Thump! posted:Um, duh, it was because they're psychotic bloodthirsty Jews who can't control their savagery and must murder everything they see. You think you're being obvious, but he will quote you 20 pages from now as evidence of the rampant anti-semetism in this thread.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:40
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Does Israel have mostly middle eastern/Mediterranean cuisine or does it have a strong nyc jewish immigrant neighborhood deli type scene as well?
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Aug 11, 2014 21:42
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Ytlaya posted:What the gently caress is your problem? Almost every time I see you post in D&D, it's making some snide comment about how dumb you think "social justice warriors" are. While dumb teenagers who think they're transethnic or whatever do exist, they aren't the posters on this forum. If you look at current/past threads on topics like nuclear power or GMOs, you'll find that the forum's general consensus is not that of the dumber, anti-science leftists you seem to generalize this forum's posters as. Fun fact: Those who whine about "SJW/Tumblr" stuff generally are just bigots. This is just the modern way of saying "it's Political Correctness gone mad I tell you!" when somebody tells you that talking about how black people are always late is racist. So yeah unsurprisingly the people who think being a warrior for social justice is a problem, also have problems with the idea of social justice.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:42
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The Insect Court posted:Whenever i hear this conspiracy theory bruited about, I have to wonder: What was the motivation for Israel to attempt to wantonly murder hundreds of Americans? You must have one in mind. See this? This whole "everyone else here believes in conspiracies" thing? Stop it. Just stop. They linked the source of what they are referring to. The USS Liberty being shelled by Israelis during the 6 Day War. What motivation do they have for it? I don't know, the Israelis said they thought it was an Egyptian ship, so they fired on it. But they never denied that it happened, in fact, they paid money to the victim's families. So please, if you're going to post in this thread, stop conflating facts for conspiracy theories. This stuff happened and they can talk about it if they like without you chiming in every page to make it sound like they're quoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:47
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Real hurthling! posted:Does Israel have mostly middle eastern/Mediterranean cuisine or does it have a strong nyc jewish immigrant neighborhood deli type scene as well? The NY deli stuff would be pretty unusual in Israel. As far as eating outside, I don't remember eating a lot of lox growing up, while hummus, shwarma, kebabs, falafel, were much more common, aside from Chinese, Indian, Thai, American, Japanese, and other non-local foods. In people's houses it generally depends on where the family came from. A Yemenite house would have Yemenite food like jahnoon, which you can also get frozen to make at home, a Moroccan ones will have couscous, which you can also buy dried out to cook like pasta, my late grandmother made gefilte fisch, and a lot of people will make fusion cuisine as well. Yeah, people get the impression that Israel is this big group of New York Jews in the Middle East, it's really not. You can find lox, knish, etc, but you'd have to look around carefully. And I haven't even gotten to the Russian-speaking, Russian-script delis with their own types of food.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:58
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The Insect Court posted:Whenever i hear this conspiracy theory bruited about, I have to wonder: What was the motivation for Israel to attempt to wantonly murder hundreds of Americans? You must have one in mind. You have your answer, come back and talk about it now. I don't know how you get away with this.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:59
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The real question is if you can find Montreal-style bagels (so much better than NY bagels).
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Aug 11, 2014 22:00
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JohnnyCanuck posted:The real question is if you can find Montreal-style bagels (so much better than NY bagels). I have no idea. Bagels just aren't a big deal in Israel. Pitas, on the other hand...
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Aug 11, 2014 22:01
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JohnnyCanuck posted:The real question is if you can find Montreal-style bagels (so much better than NY bagels). Explain why they are better in a way that doesn't sound like french fart sniffing
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Aug 11, 2014 22:05
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Real hurthling! posted:Explain why they are better in a way that doesn't sound like french fart sniffing No, don't, go to the chat thread.
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Aug 11, 2014 22:07
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oldswitcheroo posted:See this? This whole "everyone else here believes in conspiracies" thing? Stop it. Just stop. They linked the source of what they are referring to. The USS Liberty being shelled by Israelis during the 6 Day War. What motivation do they have for it? I don't know, the Israelis said they thought it was an Egyptian ship, so they fired on it. But they never denied that it happened, in fact, they paid money to the victim's families. So please, if you're going to post in this thread, stop conflating facts for conspiracy theories. This stuff happened and they can talk about it if they like without you chiming in every page to make it sound like they're quoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The suggestion that the attack was "cold blooded murder"', a planned attack on an ally by Israel for some nebulous motive, is not supported by any direct evidence. Nobody disputes that the liberty was sunk by the Israelis. Conspiracy theorists allege the attack on a US vessel was intentional.
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Aug 11, 2014 22:19
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