Warhammer 40k: It's the end of the game as we know it (and I feel fine)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Warhammer 40k: It's the end of the game as we know it (and I feel fine)

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PierreTheMime: Dec 9, 2004; Hero of hormagaunts everywhere!; Buglord

xtothez posted:

How do Carnifexes get a damage table re-roll?

The same way all Monstrous Creatures do. Smash allows you to reroll failed armor penetration rolls.

Edit: I see what you mean. I didn't mean on the table, I meant reroll armor pen. I have no idea why I typed that.

xtothez posted:

It's 165pts for a full unit, and while they're no longer a must-take like in 5th Hive Guard are still a solid choice. Impaler Cannons ignore all cover and line of sight still; which is not only rather powerful in itself, but also means you can completely hide your unit and keep it safe. That can help create a large no-go zone for your opponent in the middle of the table.

You are correct, I somehow misremembered the 15pt point increase on a full unit of three (5pts each) as 15pts each, which it is not. They're 55pts, up from 50pts. As I mentioned, Hive Guard are useful, but they're still a bit of a tossup because of their reduced BS which makes them less reliable. There are "better" options, but they are certainly not the worst thing to go with.

PierreTheMime fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Aug 12, 2014

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:00

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# ? May 14, 2024 22:17

Cataphract: Sep 10, 2004; Fun Shoe

HiveCommander posted:

5th edition Carnifexes doubling in points cost competing with the new Trygon kit. Your move.

Texas sharpshooter.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:05

HiveCommander: Jun 19, 2012

xtothez posted:

A good counterpart to Flyrants is to take a decent-sized unit of gaunts with a few devourers, and Outflank them with Hive Commander.

You rang?

xtothez posted:

It's very easy to underestimate Warriors. For 100pts you get an Objective Secured scoring unit that provides synapse, isn't hard to keep in cover, and has a large blast Pinning attack with a decent range. I'm using them much more often since 7E to fulfill my minimum troops requirement, hold backfield objectives and provide backup synapse for advancing units.

Seconding this: I don't use 'gaunts all that much anymore, but I do love fielding 3-strong broods of Warriors with a Barbed Strangler as well. They're fairly cheap, sturdy when camping cover and can lay down some damage from a reasonable distance.

PierreTheMime posted:

The same way all Monstrous Creatures do. Smash allows you to reroll failed armor penetration rolls.

Although that's only when they forfeit their attacks for the Smash (unless I've misunderstood the funky wording), which only gives them +1S and a reroll to pen (not hit) in exchange got losing 2-3 attacks.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:08

Naramyth: Jan 22, 2009; Australia cares about cunts. Including this one.

Thundercracker posted:

GK release is looking to be the laziest by far.

The new Sisters of Battle, bro.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:13

serious gaylord: Sep 16, 2007; what.

HiveCommander posted:

5th edition Carnifexes doubling in points cost competing with the new Trygon kit. Your move.

Isn't this one a bit of an outlier though? Dual Wielding Carnifex's were ridiculously good and incredibly cheap for what they did. They were going to go up in points irregardless of the Trygon kit.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:16

HiveCommander: Jun 19, 2012

Cataphract posted:

Texas sharpshooter.

Killa Kans in the new Ork 'dex, because the Orkanauts exist.
Shoota boyz going up a point to make the new Flash Gitz more viable (they still aren't but at least the models look cool, also the Loota points drop works against them there).
Battlewagons nerfed because every Ork player has a ton of them, Tervigons nerfed hard because every Tyranid player has a ton of them, Carnifexes dropping in points costs in 6th when they re-boxed them in pairs...

GW apologists have said it numerous times in this very thread that GW make miniatures first and foremost. It's not beneath them to alter the rules in a way that encourages people to buy a whole lot of new stuff (Getting Trygons because Carnifexes were nerfed in 5th, getting Exocrines because Hive Guard were nerfed in 6th, etc.)

serious gaylord posted:

Isn't this one a bit of an outlier though? Dual Wielding Carnifex's were ridiculously good and incredibly cheap for what they did. They were going to go up in points irregardless of the Trygon kit.

We knew they were undercosted in 4th, but not by 80 points. At least 6th remedied the issue by reigning then in with a 45pt drop to where they should've been.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:22

xtothez: Jan 4, 2004; College Slice

PierreTheMime posted:

The same way all Monstrous Creatures do. Smash allows you to reroll failed armor penetration rolls.

I think in the case of melee Carnifexes, you're always* better off using your five S9 attacks from a charge than a single Smash attack. I really don't get why they didn't just make the Smash attack automatically hit. It's pretty dumb you still have to roll it.

*unless you really need S10 to ID something

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:24

HiveCommander: Jun 19, 2012

Almost anything you'll be able to ID has an Invuln already so you'd be better off swinging with 4-5 attacks instead of hoping for a single strike. Or you could pay the ~10pts Adrenal Glands and have 5 almost-Smash attacks on the charge.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:30

Safety Factor: Oct 31, 2009; Grimey Drawer

HiveCommander posted:

We knew they were undercosted in 4th, but not by 80 points. At least 6th remedied the issue by reigning then in with a 45pt drop to where they should've been.

To be fair, 4th edition carnifexes didn't come with any weapons. Not even scything talons. So it was really more of a 50-60 point increase. Not that that made it any better, carnifexes were pretty much unusable despite the new ability to take them in squads. I like where they are now though.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:31

PierreTheMime: Dec 9, 2004; Hero of hormagaunts everywhere!; Buglord

HiveCommander posted:

Almost anything you'll be able to ID has an Invuln already so you'd be better off swinging with 4-5 attacks instead of hoping for a single strike. Or you could pay the ~10pts Adrenal Glands and have 5 almost-Smash attacks on the charge.

Honestly you want Adrenal Glands anyway for the rerolls on Run and Assault, S10 is just the icing on Carnicake.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:37

xtothez: Jan 4, 2004; College Slice

HiveCommander posted:

Killa Kans in the new Ork 'dex, because the Orkanauts exist.
Shoota boyz going up a point to make the new Flash Gitz more viable (they still aren't but at least the models look cool, also the Loota points drop works against them there).
Battlewagons nerfed because every Ork player has a ton of them, Tervigons nerfed hard because every Tyranid player has a ton of them, Carnifexes dropping in points costs in 6th when they re-boxed them in pairs...

Counterpoint: Pyrovores in the 5th AND 6th codexes
Counterpoint: Warriors and especially goddamn 125 point Primes
Counterpoint: any Dark Angel unit ever

I don't buy into this nerf-some-rules-to-sell-new-models thing. GW want to push all the models, as often as they can. It's obvious there's a very random correlation between units with good rules and new models. If that was the case, why is the Wave Serpent kit (over a decade old) the star of the last Eldar codex? Why didn't we see squadrons of undercosted Crimson Hunters instead? How come the Dark Angels fighter and over-sized land speeder were mediocre at best? Why did Daemons have a brand new kit that was virtually useless for ages because they forgot to put (or FAQ) the Relentless rule onto it? Hive/Tyrant Guard got a brand new kit, but didn't really improve at all rule-wise. The Pyrovore was a brand new kit for the 5E codex, yet the rules were an utter abortion then too.

The explanation is much simpler. GW just don't know how to write balanced units, and don't care enough to try. The rules team go with the rules that sound the coolest, and what made for the best narratives during their limited play-testing. The process is very simple...

1) The marketing department (many with no understanding of the game) crunch their spreadsheets, see that unit X for army Y is selling well, and order the design studio to design a similar model for army Z.
2) The design studio does some sketches, then design a model kit around them. The spare space on the sprue determines what optional extras they get.
3) The rules team then writes a codex around all these new models, plus reviews the old ones to some extent. Rather than cross-compare between codexes with various statistics and math-hammer, they play the game. If a certain unit or unit combo happens to do a little too well, it gets toned down (even if that was down to lucky dice). If a unit is especially entertaining ("Hey this Pyrovore just EXPLODED! How cool is that?!"), then it's probably fine in their minds.
After over 25 years of 40k, we're at the point where some races have a lot of units and upgrade combinations. Loads. Not all options are going to make their way into this play-testing, and often some won't receive the full attention they deserve. When the rules guys are under pressure from above to develop the next codex or expansion, they simply aren't going to be able to devote hundreds of games into making sure everything works as it should. Their bosses certainly aren't telling them to develop the most balanced game since Chess. Their brief is just to make a document that ties all these models together to be sold.

Any models. All the models.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:37

HiveCommander: Jun 19, 2012

PierreTheMime posted:

Honestly you want Adrenal Glands anyway for the rerolls on Run and Assault, S10 is just the icing on Carnicake.

Carnicake sounds like something that'd get you arrested. I was fond of Adrenal Exocrines for Onslaught move+BS4 tricks in 6th, which was fun to pull off but kind of a waste of points. Run rerolls are still pretty handy.

Safety Factor posted:

To be fair, 4th edition carnifexes didn't come with any weapons. Not even scything talons. So it was really more of a 50-60 point increase. Not that that made it any better, carnifexes were pretty much unusable despite the new ability to take them in squads. I like where they are now though.

There was always the tightass configuration: Carnifex w/ 2x Rending Claws. It did absolutely nothing beneficial aside from allowing you to have a 91pt MC. 120pts is a good spot for them, and realistically where they should've been last codex, I heard of a few people online who house-ruled a 35pt price break on them in the last book but not many people in my meta aren't that open to house-ruling.

Speaking of houserules, has anyone ever thought up any cool unit ideas? back when GKs were still operating out of C:DH I imagined up a unit of GKTs who used explosive-tipped lances. Operated similar to Burnas, in that if you don't shoot the weapon that turn (S8, AP3, assault 1, 24") it counts as a power weapon. Pretty much GKT statline, same cost as GKTs in the old book (61 for BC, 46 for each Terminator) and swapped power sword and Storm Bolter for it. Idea was definitely not inspired by Valkyria Chronicles :ninja:

xtothez posted:

Counterpoint: Pyrovores in the 5th AND 6th codexes
Counterpoint: Warriors and especially goddamn 125 point Primes
Counterpoint: any Dark Angel unit ever

I don't buy into this nerf-some-rules-to-sell-new-models thing. GW want to push all the models, as often as they can. It's obvious there's a very random correlation between units with good rules and new models. If that was the case, why is the Wave Serpent kit (over a decade old) the star of the last Eldar codex? Why didn't we see squadrons of undercosted Crimson Hunters instead? How come the Dark Angels fighter and over-sized land speeder were mediocre at best? Why did Daemons have a brand new kit that was virtually useless for ages because they forgot to put (or FAQ) the Relentless rule onto it? Hive/Tyrant Guard got a brand new kit, but didn't really improve at all rule-wise. The Pyrovore was a brand new kit for the 5E codex, yet the rules were an utter abortion then too.

Dark Angels have bad flyers, but most everything else was the same as C:SM until the SM codex dropped and they got a few points reductions. The other two options are likely just GW's gently caress-up. They tried to do something different with Pyrovores, but removing Spores alone eliminated any chance of them being useable. Warriors are fine, as per mine and your posts half an hour ago, but Primes suck hard so I'll concede that one.

Nerfing some models to make others look comparatively better is a way to get people to stop using [insert unit here] they already own 3+ of and buy a bunch of [insert new kit here]. It's not out of the realm of possibility, especially for GW who flat-out state that they are a company that sells models, not a company that makes rules, and has publicly stated that they honestly believe that their fans' favourite passtime is "purchasing Games Workshop products".

EDIT: Using the "GW wants to sell all the models equally" point you made, then I'll ask you why Pyrovores suck 2 codexes in a row, since it applies equally to your point as it does to mine.

HiveCommander fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Aug 12, 2014

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:54

AbusePuppy: Nov 1, 2012; BEST DAY OF MY LIFE!!!!!! so far.

Esser-Z posted:

But Orks... what would they bring? A fuckton of lovely boyz? Nobz? I just don't know what'd be useful in smaller numbers. I'd say meganobz, but IIRC a lot of KT rulesets ban 2+ saves, and they're slow and expensive.

Flooding the table with Boyz is actually a really strong strategy in Kill Team, to the point of being almost unfair. when you can Go to Ground with each individual model as they shoot at it and outnumber the enemy by 2-3 to one, you're in a very strong position and the hailstorm of fire Shoota Boyz put out is something that can be rough even in normal games. Add in some heavier shooting for dealing with vehicles (Lootas, Tankbustas, Buggies, Koptas, etc) and you're good to go.

Boon posted:

I'm thinking of buying my first ever FW unit. A Lynx... (also an Avatar).

I think it's toned down enough and evenly costed for a LoW to actually be used in a normal tournament setting without being 'that rear end in a top hat'.

The Lynx isn't too unkind these days; the Pulsar is still a beast against vehicles, but it's no longer a "murder everything" vehicle. The Sonic Lance is pretty nasty, but its short range is a lot more relevant on the fragile Lynx, so while it's a mean trick, it's not unbeatable.

HiveCommander posted:

5th edition Carnifexes doubling in points cost competing with the new Trygon kit. Your move.

The Trygon wasn't a game-winner even in 5E. It was better than a Carnifex, but so was a sharp poke in the eye with a stick.

HiveCommander posted:

Killa Kans in the new Ork 'dex, because the Orkanauts exist.
Shoota boyz going up a point to make the new Flash Gitz more viable (they still aren't but at least the models look cool, also the Loota points drop works against them there).
Battlewagons nerfed because every Ork player has a ton of them, Tervigons nerfed hard because every Tyranid player has a ton of them, Carnifexes dropping in points costs in 6th when they re-boxed them in pairs...

Killa Kans weren't good in 6E, either, so that's not really "nerfing a good unit to make you buy something else."
I have no idea how you think Shoota Boyz getting more expensive somehow makes Flash Gitz worthwhile. They're not in the same slot, they don't have the same role, the only thing vaguely similar is that they are both Ork units with decent shooting.
Battlewagons didn't get nerfed, check out the formation for them. Scouting five AV14 transports forward is kinda amazingly badass.
Tervigons got nerfed because they were too powerful, not because everyone had them. Correlation is not causation.

HiveCommander posted:

EDIT: Using the "GW wants to sell all the models equally" point you made, then I'll ask you why Pyrovores suck 2 codexes in a row, since it applies equally to your point as it does to mine.

It actually doesn't. His point was that unit strength is not tied to newness in any meaningful way because new units are bad as often as they are good. Pyrovores continuing to suck fits perfectly with that, because if unit power level is essentially random, some units should go up, others should go down, and others should stay the same.

AbusePuppy fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Aug 12, 2014

# ? Aug 12, 2014 16:00

Sulecrist: Apr 5, 2007; Better tear off this bar association logo.

There is a correlation between models that people own a lot of and models that are comparatively overpowered. Just saying. GW might be terrible at implementing corrections but I don't think it's pure fantasy to suggest that if it were another company nerfing Battlewagons and Deffrollas and Shoota Boyz, we would likely assume it was because they were knee-jerking. Similarly, it seems like Grey Knight Dreads are losing psyrifle ammo, and I'm going to go out on a limb here and saying the primary motivation might not be because they want to unload more Dreadknights. Even though a lot of GK players own multiple psyrifle dreads and thus might feel pressure to buy new garbage as a result.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 16:04

HiveCommander: Jun 19, 2012

AbusePuppy posted:

Tervigons got nerfed because they were too powerful, not because everyone had them. Correlation is not causation.

It actually does in this case.
Tervigons were too powerful --> Tyranid players bought lots of Tervigons. Do you think that GW, who tell us that they only make the rules as a way of selling models, pays attention to tournament winning lists? Given the type of company they are, they decide what is powerful by sales figures. They'd be more likely to look at what kit has been selling a lot in a certain timeframe than "Oh, x army just won at Adepticon. Let's have a look at the models this person was using".

# ? Aug 12, 2014 16:15

SRM: Jul 10, 2009; ~*FeElIn' AweS0mE*~

HiveCommander posted:

Don't forget that they're putting Purifiers and Paladins in separate boxes for no real reason. Looks like a sprue shuffle to me, probably going to only have half the options in each box.
I did like how many options the PAGK and GKT kits had though. A GK venerable Dread kit debunks previous rumours of no new models, and I'm surprised by no shoehorned floating throne chariot a'la Logan Claus.

They can't halve the contents of the boxes. Right now each box has 5 dudes, and the parts for all 5 are spread out around both sprues in each box The only way they could halve the options in each box was if they had someone go in there with a pair of clippers beforehand, which is an incredibly silly idea. The $60 strike squad (if it's legit) is just two GK boxes in one larger box.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 16:24

serious gaylord: Sep 16, 2007; what.

HiveCommander posted:

Don't forget that they're putting Purifiers and Paladins in separate boxes for no real reason. Looks like a sprue shuffle to me, probably going to only have half the options in each box.
I did like how many options the PAGK and GKT kits had though. A GK venerable Dread kit debunks previous rumours of no new models, and I'm surprised by no shoehorned floating throne chariot a'la Logan Claus.

Well Purifiers are in Power Armour, and Paladins are in Terminator Armour. They've always been in separate boxes. As previously pointed out, they cant halve the contents of the box since its only ever had 5 guys in there.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 16:26

Indolent Bastard: Oct 26, 2007; I WON THIS AMAZING AVATAR! I'M A WINNER! WOOOOO!

Lord Twisted posted:

Losing a ton of units and jacking the price up by a tenner is absolutely standard for GW ~~wank~~.

I guess no new Ork Buggy kits then? Oh well.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 16:30

Lord Hypnostache: Nov 6, 2009; OATHBREAKER

ghetto wormhole posted:

Other than losing some units the IG/AM codex is WAAAAAY better than it was before. Vendettas are still a really good unit, they were one of the most undercosted things in the game in the last codex and one of the few things keeping it from actually seeming like the poor codex it was.

What else is there? Manticores went up 10 points but they don't lose all their missiles to a single weapon destroyed result so that alone is easily worth the extra cost. Chimeras were frankly pretty silly letting 5 guys shoot out the back. It didn't make any sense from the model's perspective and it just encouraged a shitload of boring vetspam. Harker got worse but he sucked in the first place.

In exchange literally everything else got better/cheaper or at absolute worst stayed exactly the same. The 5th ed codex was a lovely codex held up entirely by a couple really good units. The 6th edition codex is closer to the Necron codex in that it's generally quite good all around except for a few subpar units which really aren't even all that terrible when you look at the stinkers in a lot of the other codexes.

I wasn't really referring to their effectiveness in game, I was referring to their players. Every time a new codex is announced Blood Angels, Dark Eldar and up until recently Ork players would announce their great disappointment that their army would be pushed back yet again. But I don't recall any Necron or IG players ever complaining about the age of their codex.

What I'm saying is some codexes are old, some are old and outdated.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 16:41

xtothez: Jan 4, 2004; College Slice

HiveCommander posted:

EDIT: Using the "GW wants to sell all the models equally" point you made, then I'll ask you why Pyrovores suck 2 codexes in a row, since it applies equally to your point as it does to mine.

My full point was "GW wants to sell all the models equally, but don't understand the game well enough to manipulate rules to do so". They don't think with the same attitude of tournament players, hunting for broken combinations of units or min-maxed lists. GW don't even put much thought into whether or not a unit is performing it's intended role well.
For this the Pyrovore is a perfect example. It did get slightly better with the new codex, but is still fundamentally broken. It's a close-range unit without the speed or durability to get anywhere damaging, nor is it cheap enough to compensate for that... that's a clear indication they don't understand how to make it effective.

HiveCommander posted:

It actually does in this case.
Tervigons were too powerful --> Tyranid players bought lots of Tervigons. Do you think that GW, who tell us that they only make the rules as a way of selling models, pays attention to tournament winning lists? Given the type of company they are, they decide what is powerful by sales figures. They'd be more likely to look at what kit has been selling a lot in a certain timeframe than "Oh, x army just won at Adepticon. Let's have a look at the models this person was using".

I'm genuinely curious as to how many Tervigons were actually sold. The kit came out a long while after people had started converting their own (or buying Chapterhouse) to win tournaments, which is bound to put a dent in those sales. The dual-kit thing throws off sales figures too - how do they know people weren't just buying the set to make lots of T-Fexes?

The main nerf for the Tervigon (random psychic powers) wasn't even directed at it per se, but was merely bringing it in line with the 6E standard. It's the same nerf practically every other psyker in every other codex received, it just hurt the Tervigon most because being able to buy Catalyst was a very strong ability. That fact it received a points hike after losing it's main strength helps to demonstrate GW don't really notice these sweeping changes or pay much attention to the macro-level of the game.

xtothez fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Aug 12, 2014

# ? Aug 12, 2014 16:59

Greyish Orange: Apr 1, 2010

So I used an awesome paint scheme earlier in the thread, I'm just wondering where to go next. I put one of them as close to "together" as I could since I haven't glued any of the main bits yet.

Are my options to pull a Non-metallic bronze style for the inquisition stuff and bleached bone for the books/skulls?

I also don't own a drill, for the barrels

I'm not quite sure how to go about it. These paladins are going to be my killteam (slightly modified rules FLGS) for my first game in the new ruleset.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 17:03

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Would you guys mind if I asked you some questions about the dice you use and if you'd be interested in custom ones? I've been making custom dice for HeroClix players and it just dawned on me that I'm ignoring a potential goldmine, but I don't know the WH40k scene at all, so... wanna be low-rent market research? :shobon:

# ? Aug 12, 2014 17:16

A 50S RAYGUN: Aug 22, 2011

you use the dice you've accumulated over years of whatever

# ? Aug 12, 2014 17:17

PierreTheMime: Dec 9, 2004; Hero of hormagaunts everywhere!; Buglord

CapnAndy posted:

Would you guys mind if I asked you some questions about the dice you use and if you'd be interested in custom ones? I've been making custom dice for HeroClix players and it just dawned on me that I'm ignoring a potential goldmine, but I don't know the WH40k scene at all, so... wanna be low-rent market research?

I'd totally be down with this. If you want/need help feel free to post here or PM me and we can discuss.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 17:36

Safety Factor: Oct 31, 2009; Grimey Drawer

CapnAndy posted:

Would you guys mind if I asked you some questions about the dice you use and if you'd be interested in custom ones? I've been making custom dice for HeroClix players and it just dawned on me that I'm ignoring a potential goldmine, but I don't know the WH40k scene at all, so... wanna be low-rent market research?

A lot of people get color-themed or even custom dice for their armies. On the other hand, I've been using the same set of green dice since I started as a kid. I'll admit I thought about getting those blue and gold Tzeentch dice GW put out a while back for my Night Lords, but those are long gone.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 17:40

Lord Twisted: Apr 3, 2010; In the Emperor's name, let none survive.

Seems to be a bit of Tyranid chat going on - why are warriors considered so godawful? I'm toying with some Tyranid lists and want to have like 3+ carnifexes in 1500 pts as theyre iconic, but that means my troops is like 60 gaunts which will probably evaporate. Are warriors really that terribad? Don't they get decent shooting?

I just like the idea of a mainly monstrous creature tyranid army with some medium guys as support.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 17:50

Naramyth: Jan 22, 2009; Australia cares about cunts. Including this one.

SUPER NEAT TOY posted:

you use the dice you've accumulated over years of whatever

In my dice pouch I have dice from literally 20 different Chessex sets of 36 dice. I have purchased two.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 17:50

ANAmal.net: Mar 2, 2002; 100% digital native web developer

I was rolling with the random collection of dice, but then last week I bought 400 dice off of Amazon for thirty bucks, so I think I'm good on dice for a while.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:01

PierreTheMime: Dec 9, 2004; Hero of hormagaunts everywhere!; Buglord

Lord Twisted posted:

Seems to be a bit of Tyranid chat going on - why are warriors considered so godawful? I'm toying with some Tyranid lists and want to have like 3+ carnifexes in 1500 pts as theyre iconic, but that means my troops is like 60 gaunts which will probably evaporate. Are warriors really that terribad? Don't they get decent shooting?

I just like the idea of a mainly monstrous creature tyranid army with some medium guys as support.

They're not godawful, they just happen to have an Achilles' heel the size of a barn than every army can pretty reliably hit. In a perfect world where your opponent doesn't have access to S8+ guns they're decent for their points, but the problem is that you need to stick to cover constantly and most of their weapons are of such a limited range that it forces you to move forward or languish in the backfield.

Shooting-wise, they're okay but not great. The default gun (Devourer) is 18" S4 AP-. One model can upgrade to either a 36" S6 AP4 small blast or a 36" S4 AP6 large pinning blast for 10pts. Both of these options are decent and allow you to let your models sit comfortably in cover and plink things at a distance, but it means that's all they're good for. They're good for support, but won't really achieve much offensively unless you pump enough points into them that you'll feel the loss of each casualty much more.

I've been using Warriors lately as a part of Living Artillery and aside from them being the center of the bonus, I've never seen them accomplish much on their own, even in games where they've survived the entire fight.

Edit: Dice chat: I've had one blue Chessex set I've used since Shadowrun 3rd Edition back in the late 90s. I later received a new GW set of green dice around 2010 and purchased a set of Chaos GW dice when they got their short release about a year ago.

Edit edit: I would totally pay money for a set with :negative:

as ones, mostly because that so expresses my thoughts when I roll five dice and get four ones and a two.

PierreTheMime fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Aug 12, 2014

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:15

NTRabbit: Aug 15, 2012; i wear this armour to protect myself from the histrionics of hysterical women

bitches

I have two cubes of small chessex dice, one orange and one grey to match the colours of my Eldar. No idea if I need more.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:16

SRM: Jul 10, 2009; ~*FeElIn' AweS0mE*~

My Valhallans (styled like WW2 Russians) have these tiny dice where the numbers are in a Soviet-looking font and have a hammer and sickle for sixes. There was a kickstarter for custom dice a while ago and I chipped in because I want blue dice with white pips and omegas for sixes for my Ultramarines. My Iron Warriors (and my Necromunda gang and my Ultramarines until they get their dice) use gold and silver Koplow dice, and my Orks and old IG army used this mass of green dice I have. Matching dice to an army is just one of those things you do.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:17

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; Ultra Carp

SRM posted:

My Valhallans (styled like WW2 Russians) have these tiny dice where the numbers are in a Soviet-looking font and have a hammer and sickle for sixes. There was a kickstarter for custom dice a while ago and I chipped in because I want blue dice with white pips and omegas for sixes for my Ultramarines. My Iron Warriors (and my Necromunda gang and my Ultramarines until they get their dice) use gold and silver Koplow dice, and my Orks and old IG army used this mass of green dice I have. Matching dice to an army is just one of those things you do.

I play Flames of War, so in a similar vein I often use my American dice with the allied star for the 6 whenever I need to make an important roll. Sadly, they don't usually help. :negative:

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:26

SRM: Jul 10, 2009; ~*FeElIn' AweS0mE*~

My obnoxious Russian dice actually do roll pretty well, but they're a pain in the butt to read. Then again, when nobody can really read what you're rolling, you could always be rolling well :v:

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:27

Foul Ole Ron: Jan 6, 2005; All of you, please don't rush, everyone do the Guybrush!; Fun Shoe

Sulecrist posted:

There is a correlation between models that people own a lot of and models that are comparatively overpowerd.

Defilers and Daemons princes for CSM are another example of GW nerfing models to promite sales.

With defilers, they received a big points increase to encourage players to buy the newer daemon engins (a nid vet into my FLGS predicted this citing carnifixs from 5th edition codex as an example).

Daemon princes are a blatent example of this, their entry even highlights how (the rose expensive they are BEFORE upgrades (and already expensive unit which has a simple armour upgrade costing 40pts!).

Make no mistake, GW have designed rules around selling models, or discouraging players from using existing ones.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:44

Cataphract: Sep 10, 2004; Fun Shoe

HiveCommander posted:

It actually does in this case.
Tervigons were too powerful --> Tyranid players bought lots of Tervigons. Do you think that GW, who tell us that they only make the rules as a way of selling models, pays attention to tournament winning lists? Given the type of company they are, they decide what is powerful by sales figures. They'd be more likely to look at what kit has been selling a lot in a certain timeframe than "Oh, x army just won at Adepticon. Let's have a look at the models this person was using".

I find it much easier to beleive that GW tweak their rules in an attempt to balance the game rather than force peoples collections to become redundant in order to force them onto new kits. If the latter really was the case the evidence would be a lot more consistent. New units would have consistently better rules and old units would be consistently nerfed. As it stands, some of the new stuff is pretty good, some of the old stuff gets nerfed, some of the new stuff is utter trash and some of the old stuff gets a boost. The evidence is just not consistent enough to make the case.

The orkanauts, which you brought up, are trash. If they really nerfed Kanz to sell orkanauts they would have made them superheavies and assault vehicles. One of the real winners of the update to the ork book seem to be buggies; models that were popular in the old book and have models from 2nd edition. Shoota boys, were hands down better than slugga boys in the previous edition and it makes sense for them to make an adjustment there; not to invalidate players' collections but to make both options viable. And, in that example, it seems to have worked. I now run a bunch of shootas in a wagon and a bunch of bunch of footslogging choppas.

Like I said before, You're texas sharpshooting. You're only drawing conclusions from evidence that supports your hypothesis and ignoring the evidence that points otherwise.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:48

serious gaylord: Sep 16, 2007; what.

Again, you're citing examples of models people thought were clearly undercosted again.

Clearly they upped the points on the Guard Valkyrie to sell the new flying transport unit they just released.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:49

PierreTheMime: Dec 9, 2004; Hero of hormagaunts everywhere!; Buglord

Can't wait for the points increase on Pyrovores so they can sell me on something else.

GW! :argh:

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:54

Safety Factor: Oct 31, 2009; Grimey Drawer

Foul Ole Ron posted:

Defilers and Daemons princes for CSM are another example of GW nerfing models to promite sales.

With defilers, they received a big points increase to encourage players to buy the newer daemon engins (a nid vet into my FLGS predicted this citing carnifixs from 5th edition codex as an example).

Daemon princes are a blatent example of this, their entry even highlights how (the rose expensive they are BEFORE upgrades (and already expensive unit which has a simple armour upgrade costing 40pts!).

Make no mistake, GW have designed rules around selling models, or discouraging players from using existing ones.

I'm not sure I follow. Demon princes were amazing in 6th and are still good/great with the changes to flying monstrous creatures. The Chaos Demons version is arguably better than the Chaos Marine one, but it still has its place. The defiler has always been bad and probably will continue to be. It's huge, expensive, weirdly fragile at AV 12, and can't even fire most of its weapons thanks to its ordnance. It even got a bunch of new rules for being a demon engine and it still sucks.

Edit: In hindsight, this post is a little antagonistic. I didn't mean it that way. :ohdear:

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:54

Cooked Auto: Aug 4, 2007

For dice I use the old Bombardment dice cube I managed to get hold of, so I've got 125ish red and black die with the Adeptus Munitorium as ones which I think fit really well but I wouldn't say no to a custom set of regular 40k dice since I don't actually have any scatter die and such and keep borrowing from others.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:58

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# ? May 14, 2024 22:17

Cataphract: Sep 10, 2004; Fun Shoe

Foul Ole Ron posted:

Defilers and Daemons princes for CSM are another example of GW nerfing models to promite sales.

With defilers, they received a big points increase to encourage players to buy the newer daemon engins (a nid vet into my FLGS predicted this citing carnifixs from 5th edition codex as an example).

Daemon princes are a blatent example of this, their entry even highlights how (the rose expensive they are BEFORE upgrades (and already expensive unit which has a simple armour upgrade costing 40pts!).

Make no mistake, GW have designed rules around selling models, or discouraging players from using existing ones.

Is it? Or is it an example of GW nerfing models that were too powerful or undercosted?

Daemon princes were an auto include in the previous book but now they are still loving excellent but they're pretty well balanced against other HQ choices.

The defiler on the other hand has a high points cost because of its perceived versatility. It's got a lot of guns but it's also fast and its good in combat. The other daemon engines aren't as versatile. They fill either a combat or shooting role. The problem is that, quite often, the points premium you pay for versatility is generally not worth it as it doesn't make you any tougher. There's plenty of other units, like dreadnoughts, who fit the same profile. Why spend 125 points on a dreadnought with a twin linked lascannon when I can get a predator with better armour and an additional two lascannons for 15 extra points.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 19:02

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