BlitzkriegOfColour posted:

I would ask "What happened to the Liberals to make them this way? What forces of otherisation are preventing them from integrating?"

quote:

It is true that British Muslims are themselves frequently the victims of bigotry — just as in the US and across most of the Western world, especially since 9/11. They are often harassed by the police, denied jobs, and abused in the street, and they are forced to watch as our government senselessly incinerates many Muslims abroad. (I have written many articles detailing and deploring these ugly facts.) So gay people are naturally reluctant to pile in onto minority who are being oppressed. We are rightly sympathetic. We know what it is like to be treated like this. We instinctively respond with solidarity, not suspicion.

But this can easily morph into excuse-making. When there was a wave of vicious gay-bashings in Amsterdam by Morroccan immigrants — ending the city’s easy, hand-holding culture — the gay spokesman for Human Rights Watch, Scott Long, said: “There’s still an extraordinary degree of racism in Dutch society. Gays often becomes victims of this when immigrants retaliate for the inequities they have had to suffer.” What? How is it a “retaliation” to beat up a gay couple? What have they done to Muslims? What other human rights abuse would Human Rights Watch make excuses for? Would they say the Burmese junta beats dissidents in order to “retaliate for the inequities they have had to suffer”?

When gay people were cruelly oppressed, we didn’t form gangs to beat up other minorities. We organized democratically and appealed to our fellow citizens’ sense of decency. It’s patronizing — and authentically racist — to treat Muslims as if they are children, or animals, who can only react to their oppression by jeering at or attacking people who have done them no harm, and who they object to because of a book written in the sixth century. Muslims are human beings who can choose not to do this. The vast majority, of course, do not attack anyone. But they should go further. They should choose instead to see us as equal human beings, who live and love just like them, and do not deserve scorn and prejudice.

open24hours posted:

Of all the people to take a hardline stance against Islam I never expected it to be TOML.

BlitzkriegOfColour posted:

It's the troll post that made me internet famous. You found it!*

MysticalMachineGun posted:

What's the stats on devout Christians/Catholics being homophobic? I'm guessing we'd see a similarly high number as compared to the general population.

Those On My Left posted:

What planet are you living on where what I'm taking is a hardline stance?

IWC made a post saying that often lefty progressives are super reluctant to criticise Islam and unthinkingly swallow the "Islam is a religion of peace" line. I said this is correct, and linked to a Johaan Hari piece in which it is shown that, in Britain, 58% of the general population thinks that homosexuality is acceptable, but literally ZERO PERCENT of Muslims do.

The piece was about the fact that the oppression of Muslims doesn't mean we shouldn't criticise the obviously terrible aspects of British Muslim culture (like the fact that LITERALLY ZERO PERCENT of British Muslims think homosexuality is acceptable).

It is kind of perfect that you are now turning around and responding to the suggestion that we should criticise the rampant homophobia of British Muslim culture by saying this is me "taking a hardline stance against Islam". I could hardly have asked for a better proof of Johaan Hari's point.

open24hours posted:

Well, considering homosexuality is a sin and a crime under Islamic law it's hardly surprising that they aren't OK with it. What did you expect them to say? It's no coincidence the acceptance of homosexuality has increased in the west as the influence of religion has declined.

Soag posted:

which is kind of his point, muslim's shouldnt be beyond reproach but often are in lefty discourses

Quantum Mechanic posted:

lotta neat avatars popping up round these parts

open24hours posted:

Religions ought to be criticised, I'm just surprised to see it happening this way.

open24hours posted:

Of course they shouldn't be, but a criticism of their homophobia is a criticism of the religion itself.

Religions ought to be criticised, I'm just surprised to see it happening this way.

quote:

Treasurer Joe Hockey has warned Australians he may be forced to take "emergency action" and deliver Queensland-style austerity if structural budget reforms are not made.

And Mr Hockey has also suggested the proposed increase in fuel excise will not affect the less well off as much as high and middle income earners because "the poorest people either don't have cars or actually don't drive very far in many cases”.

And despite criticism over the government’s proposed changes over the pension, the Treasurer has also suggested "in net terms out of the budget, it is strongly arguable that pensioners are going to be better off" because the inflation rate is higher than average male weekly earnings at present.

Jumpingmanjim posted:

Another successful IWC troll

Freudian Slip posted:

This is the point that IWC brought up in the first place and what TOML was agreeing with. Often we are quite happy to maul Christians and Jews for abhorrent views but feel weird about applying the same standards to Muslims.

Edit: I guess the reason is that there is already so much over-the-top negativity coming from bigots that we don't want to be dog piling on top - even for valid criticisms.

Those On My Left posted:

If I posted a study that said "In Australia, 58% of people think homosexuality is acceptable, but 0% of Liberal Party candidates do", you wouldn't say "Wow, that's pretty damning of Australia". You'd ask exactly what the gently caress is wrong with the culture of the Liberal Party in Australia.

adamantium|wang posted:

Jumpingmanjim posted:

Another successful IWC troll

rudatron posted:

They're actually the same problem though. If the people who are bigots about islam were running Australia, Australia would just be a christian version of ISIS (ethnic cleansing, death squads, the whole shebang). There's a lot of support for reaction within the muslim community, but your goal is to confront reaction and not 'islam' as a community or identity or whatever.

Soag posted:

not really, i dont know that most of the anti-islamic left actually want to kill them, they just want them to get out of australia


isis want to actually irl kill you

open24hours posted:

What is 'wrong' with them is that they believe in a religion under which homosexuality is a sin. So, what is wrong with them is that their religion is wrong? Where can you go from there?

adamantium|wang posted:

Soag posted:

not really, i dont know that most of the anti-islamic left actually want to kill them, they just want them to get out of australia


isis want to actually irl kill you

MysticalMachineGun posted:

Good question! As BB was saying (and even though it's anecdotal) all the Australian Muslims he knows have no problem with homosexuals. Even religions can shift with culture so if we continue to work on having homosexuality accepted in society at large, hopefully it will sway those whose religion says otherwise.

Freudian Slip posted:

Edit: I guess the reason is that there is already so much over-the-top negativity coming from bigots that we don't want to be dog piling on top - even for valid criticisms.

rudatron posted:

They're actually the same problem though. If the people who are bigots about islam were running Australia, Australia would just be a christian version of ISIS (ethnic cleansing, death squads, the whole shebang). There's a lot of support for reaction within the muslim community, but your goal is to confront reaction and not 'islam' as a community or identity or whatever.

MysticalMachineGun posted:

Good question! As BB was saying (and even though it's anecdotal) all the Australian Muslims he knows have no problem with homosexuals. Even religions can shift with culture so if we continue to work on having homosexuality accepted in society at large, hopefully it will sway those whose religion says otherwise.

MysticalMachineGun posted:

Good question! As BB was saying (and even though it's anecdotal) all the Australian Muslims he knows have no problem with homosexuals. Even religions can shift with culture so if we continue to work on having homosexuality accepted in society at large, hopefully it will sway those whose religion says otherwise.

adamantium|wang posted:

Treasurer Joe Hockey has warned Australians he may be forced to take "emergency action" and deliver Queensland-style austerity if structural budget reforms are not made.

And Mr Hockey has also suggested the proposed increase in fuel excise will not affect the less well off as much as high and middle income earners because "the poorest people either don't have cars or actually don't drive very far in many cases”.

And despite criticism over the government’s proposed changes over the pension, the Treasurer has also suggested "in net terms out of the budget, it is strongly arguable that pensioners are going to be better off" because the inflation rate is higher than average male weekly earnings at present.

MysticalMachineGun posted:

Good question! As BB was saying (and even though it's anecdotal) all the Australian Muslims he knows have no problem with homosexuals. Even religions can shift with culture so if we continue to work on having homosexuality accepted in society at large, hopefully it will sway those whose religion says otherwise.

Newcastle Herald posted:

The Newcastle area recorded the greatest number of personal insolvencies (58) in the state for the three-month period, but it should be noted that it’s the most highly populated area surveyed by the authority.

The Upper Hunter, including Muswellbrook and Singleton, recorded the highest proportion of debtors in the state with one person entering insolvency for every 1147 residents in just three months.

The overall number of insolvencies for the broader Hunter region climbed slightly despite a 5.3 per cent fall across Regional NSW, a 13.6 per cent fall in the Sydney metropolitan area and a 10.1 per cent fall nationally.

open24hours posted:

Maybe it will, but it's not the case now.

Is it is more important for our society to be accepting of Islam or to condemn homophobia? If we allow people to move here with the full knowledge that they are or are very likely to be homophobic it would seem that we are currently erring on the side of religious freedom. If we introduced some sort of 'homophobia test' that would presumably count as a form of religious persecution?