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JR, what is your educational background?
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Aug 13, 2014 01:46
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DrProsek posted:Presumably, when you sign up for health insurance/membership with a Healthcare Resolution Organization (which you have to do to be able to go to the only hospital in town), it would include an article where in the event of a highly contagious outbreak, you will submit to quarantine as directed by that local hospital or else you will be dropped from the organization. Isn't the bolded an initiation of force against the rest of the society? Krotera posted:Let's say I shoot your dog. What exactly stops your DRO from contacting the my DRO and agreeing to do nothing to help you out? It's so hard to read this and not make a weed joke.
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Aug 13, 2014 01:50
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. Bask in the glory of the voluntarist, freedom of association friendly future!
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No, the HRO's other customers would voluntarily cast-out and shun the coverage-dropper from society and commerce because the alternative is losing their own coverage and facing a slow death by starvation. See how easily voluntary associations can arise in the absence of a state? When the alternative is death, you'll voluntarily agree to just about anything a megacorp with enough market power demands, ushering in a utopia where no one is ever forced to do anything against their will. 
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Aug 13, 2014 01:54
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If my DRO decides that the cost of resolving things in my favor is too great when measured against potential loss from dealing with my enemy's DRO, and all the DRO's use the same industry standard calculations to reach the same conclusion, what are my alternatives?
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Aug 13, 2014 01:59
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paragon1 posted:If my DRO decides that the cost of resolving things in my favor is too great when measured against potential loss from dealing with my enemy's DRO, and all the DRO's use the same industry standard calculations to reach the same conclusion, what are my alternatives? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLCmcV4gC_0
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Aug 13, 2014 02:13
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paragon1 posted:If my DRO decides that the cost of resolving things in my favor is too great when measured against potential loss from dealing with my enemy's DRO, and all the DRO's use the same industry standard calculations to reach the same conclusion, what are my alternatives? Suicide
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Aug 13, 2014 02:20
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Seems legit.
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Aug 13, 2014 02:21
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paragon1 posted:If my DRO decides that the cost of resolving things in my favor is too great when measured against potential loss from dealing with my enemy's DRO, and all the DRO's use the same industry standard calculations to reach the same conclusion, what are my alternatives? Sounds like this situation is all your fault. Maybe you should take some personal responsibility! (kill yourself)
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Aug 13, 2014 03:22
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You know that you've messed up when you start longing for the friendly, humane, laissez-faire leadership of Josef Stalin in comparison to your 'nonviolent' utopia.
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Aug 13, 2014 03:24
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I'm really glad there's a political movement to create the world of Snowcrash, I've always wanted to have a nuclear-powered cybernetic dog like Fido 
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Aug 13, 2014 03:59
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 Something for the op?
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Aug 13, 2014 04:03
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platedlizard posted:I'm really glad there's a political movement to create the world of Snowcrash, I've always wanted to have a nuclear-powered cybernetic dog like Fido I don't have the article handy but apparently in Phoenix you can pay extra to go to Scottsdale Jails instead of Tent City for a small fee.
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Aug 13, 2014 04:08
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I don't have the article handy but apparently in Phoenix you can pay extra to go to Scottsdale Jails instead of Tent City for a small fee. Niiiice. Really looking forward to the Mafia running the entire pizza industry and &
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Aug 13, 2014 04:24
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That reminds me, jhoder, how would a libertarian society deal with organized crime? You know, extortion, theft, kidnapping, human trafficking etc would all still exist probably. How would a libertarian society enforce the few rules it has? Especially since w/ organized crime you are dealing with large conglomerates intent on violating libertarian "rules", not just individuals.
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Aug 13, 2014 04:36
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platedlizard posted:That reminds me, jhoder, how would a libertarian society deal with organized crime? You know, extortion, theft, kidnapping, human trafficking etc would all still exist probably. These organizations are called DRO's, and as has already been explained to you, such activities would be unprofitable because in a free market, the
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Aug 13, 2014 04:46
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Wait, I thought the DROs were the good guys in libertarian society?
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Aug 13, 2014 04:49
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But guys, a hideous dystopia run by unaccountable concentrations of capital would be so much better because... ...holy poo poo
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Aug 13, 2014 04:51
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quote:The anarcho-capitalist book written by Linda and Morris Tannehill, The Market for Liberty, notes that contracts could provide for appeals courts, if the parties were willing to take on the risk of extra expense occasioned by appeals. Murray Rothbard's For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto also cites appeals courts as a means of settling disputes among people who subscribe to different dispute resolution organizations. Thus, if Brown, a subscriber to Metropolitan Court Company is accused of a crime against Jones, a subscriber to Prudential Court, then the case may be heard in both courts; if the courts agree on Brown's guilt or innocence, then that judgment will stand; but if they disagree, then an appeals court agreed to by Metropolitan and Prudential will decide the case. ^^^^ poo poo libertarians believe would not only work, but be preferable to a state society.
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Aug 13, 2014 04:54
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Typical Pubbie posted:Wait, I thought the DROs were the good guys in libertarian society? They are. Because they are the truly free marketeers. They own the court system and the enforcement system, and would naturally partner with security systems for a fully vertically-integrated justice industry. If you want justice, you pay for it, and if you want someone else's justice, you can pay for that too. That's assuming that these DROs don't just take over entire cities or slices of the country because if they tried that you could start your own with the assurance that you WOULDN'T take over entire cities or slices of the country, and the competition would be completely fair because all of a sudden the previous DRO wouldn't have a complete monopoly on force, just a massive advantage. But don't worry, people would patronise yours. They totally would, because it wouldn't be in the existing DRO's interest to either force you out or undercut your prices in any way. That would be against the spirit of the truly free market, which would make the existing DROs heretics. And heretics, like cartels and cronyism, don't exist in the glorious free market.
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Aug 13, 2014 05:01
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Guys, I don't think this libertarian stuff makes a lick of sense!
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Aug 13, 2014 05:05
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Dyz posted:Isn't the bolded an initiation of force against the rest of the society? There is no society in libertopia. There are only individual straight white men.
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Aug 13, 2014 05:25
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Typical Pubbie posted:Guys, I don't think this libertarian stuff makes a lick of sense! Picture a world without any people in it and it works perfectly.
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Aug 13, 2014 05:30
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VitalSigns posted:These organizations are called DRO's, and as has already been explained to you, such activities would be unprofitable because in a free market, the  I better buy stock in the Russian Mafia then.
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Aug 13, 2014 05:37
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Sadly they're a closely held corporation.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:06
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I can't be the only one amused by the concept that Libertarians ideal world includes battling DRO Corporation Pokemon.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:20
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RuanGacho posted:I can't be the only one amused by the concept that Libertarians ideal world includes battling DRO Corporation Pokemon. It would be amusing as hell to me were it not for all the endless horrors and nightmares attached to it, the complete psychosis that all humanity would be forced to live in until it finally succeeded in destroying itself off either through open neglect or greed or just plain old bloodshed. I can actually envision the world they want to construct and let me tell you, it's a frightening and hollow existence that they propose.
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Aug 13, 2014 08:36
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Not necessarily directed at JR but if he wants to answer, great. There was a great reply by a poster earlier (I'm sorry, I didn't record the name) about the disproportionate cost of labour borne by women who choose to have children, pointing out that only labour policies and a strong social safety net could insulate them from this cost. Extending that, and being unfamiliar with the philosophy, have any of the great thinkers of libertarianism written anything about what systems of support would assist the disabled in a libertarian society? I can imagine what the answer would be a child born with a disability (I presume a libertarian society would expect the parents to outlay the money?) but what about someone who lost some ability through an accident? Someone who lost an arm in an animal attack or received a traumatic brain injury through flying debris during a storm? I guess this argument is a natural outflow from health care in general but libertarianism seems to be premised on this idea that anyone has an equal capacity to compete and seize resources and I'm wondering how they account for the fact that, though no fault of their own, some people are rendered unable to. Maybe directed at JR but, if you did suddenly lose the use of your legs through no fault of your own and through no-one else's specific fault (such that there wasn't anyone available to provide you with redress), what would <you> expect to happen under your ideal system of government? Actually, scratch that, what if you <were> injured through someone else's negligence but they happened to be poor and destitute themselves and had no capacity to pay anyway, even if you did approach them for redress. What happens then? It really concerns me that this whole system is posited on the idea of rational actors going about their business when the capacity to act in a rational (and competitive) way can be taken from you in the blink of an eye... Owing to the fact that any one of us could have calamity occur, wouldn't a strong social safety net be some comfort to you so that you're assured that, even if the worst were to happen, you wouldn't just starve on the street?
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Aug 13, 2014 09:08
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platedlizard posted:That reminds me, jhoder, how would a libertarian society deal with organized crime? You know, extortion, theft, kidnapping, human trafficking etc would all still exist probably. How would a libertarian society enforce the few rules it has? Especially since w/ organized crime you are dealing with large conglomerates intent on violating libertarian "rules", not just individuals. The initial DRO world salad claims that organized crime only exists because it gets incentives from the state, such as an easily bribed police force. Since Libertarians believe the state is directly responsible for organized crime, it won't exist in a stateless society, because DROs with only the oversight of...rational actors (  )probably won't be interested in taking large amounts of money to look the other way.
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Aug 13, 2014 10:59
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Serrath posted:It really concerns me that this whole system is posited on the idea of rational actors going about their business when the capacity to act in a rational (and competitive) way can be taken from you in the blink of an eye... Owing to the fact that any one of us could have calamity occur, wouldn't a strong social safety net be some comfort to you so that you're assured that, even if the worst were to happen, you wouldn't just starve on the street? The simple and realistic answer to this is "well sucks to be you, stop getting in my way you waste of flesh, just die quickly." We've seen libertarian sorts actually say this before (I'm not trawling through Reddit and Freep just to prove it you can do that yourself) but, we're talking fantasy worlds so let's talk fantasies. In the libertarian utopia fantasy world such people are taken care of by the ubiquitous "free market." Presumably natural generosity handled by rational actors (maybe the families of those afflicted or the rare actually altruistic people who in this somehow have tons of money to do it despite libertarian philosophy frequently relying heavily on selfish objectivism) or possibly companies who rationally enact safety policies for their employees (presuming that for some reason without regulations or requirements to do so they would actually take care of their employees and not simply abandon them when they stop being profitable dispensable human resources). And that's pretty much the best answer that I or indeed anyone I think could give you, at least in such simplistic terms. The answer from libertarians will always be "the free market will do everything and save everyone no matter what." Regardless of how blatantly unrealistic this is.
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Aug 13, 2014 11:47
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Reverend Catharsis posted:
I assumed this would be the answer... disability rights and social safety nets for people unable to care for themselves is one of my particular interests (full disclosure, I'm a psychologist and working with disadvantaged groups is virtually 100% of my practice) so I guess I'm looking for specifics. Like, I get that the free market will step in and MAGIC but I'm interested to know if any libertarian thinkers have really taken the effort to articulate clearly how they imagine the most vulnerable populations will be cared for in their utopia... even if unrealistic, I'm curious to know what mechanics they'd generate (short of allowing the disabled to die in the street, of course). I'm not trying to frame this as a gotcha type question, I'm just really curious. I live in Australia and we recently elected a conservative government. Even the most conservative conservatives here don't make an attempt to eliminate the social safety nets afforded to the disabled because, even among a conservative population, there's some acknowledgement that the cruelty required to eliminate such programs from such a vulnerable group is unimaginable. Sure, take away funding from the unemployed, the aged, university students, and require additional tests to qualify for disability but it seems that, for those who have proven their disability, there is a (sometimes reluctant) admission that, without some mechanism to care for these people, society itself has failed.
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Aug 13, 2014 12:19
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Typical Pubbie posted:Wait, I thought the DROs were the good guys in libertarian society? Oh they are. They're so good they won't let you sign up with one of those other rinky-dink outfits, see?
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Aug 13, 2014 13:36
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Well, it's been almost two whole days since jrod posted in his own thread. Who wants to start taking bets on when/if he'll be back?
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Aug 13, 2014 13:43
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Who What Now posted:Well, it's been almost two whole days since jrod posted in his own thread. Who wants to start taking bets on when/if he'll be back? Yeah, how hard is it to type out posts that are basically "You are wrong. Here is a link to Von Mises."?
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Aug 13, 2014 13:44
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Obdicut posted:Yeah, how hard is it to type out posts that are basically "You are wrong. Here is a link to Von Mises."? Pretty hard when you're trying to pull a magical rabbit out of your digital rear end-fingers in an effort to prove to the unwashed masses that your beliefs are superior to theirs.
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Aug 13, 2014 13:50
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Reverend Catharsis posted:Pretty hard when you're trying to pull a magical rabbit out of your digital rear end-fingers in an effort to prove to the unwashed masses that your beliefs are superior to theirs. Yeah, but usually he can keep it up for at least a week before he slinks away reeking of shame and failure.
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Aug 13, 2014 13:58
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Serrath posted:I assumed this would be the answer... disability rights and social safety nets for people unable to care for themselves is one of my particular interests (full disclosure, I'm a psychologist and working with disadvantaged groups is virtually 100% of my practice) so I guess I'm looking for specifics. Like, I get that the free market will step in and MAGIC but I'm interested to know if any libertarian thinkers have really taken the effort to articulate clearly how they imagine the most vulnerable populations will be cared for in their utopia... even if unrealistic, I'm curious to know what mechanics they'd generate (short of allowing the disabled to die in the street, of course). As ridiculously conservative as Australia has become, you are nowhere near the US in that regard. Most libertarians, and hell, many Americans conservatives, believe the disabled should gently caress off and die, full stop, since they're not able to contribute economically in the same way (the only way that matters). It's actually a good way to get people to question the idiocy of that ideology, reminding them that the minute you become disabled in a libertarian society it is your duty to starve to death for the greater good.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:09
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Psykmoe posted:The initial DRO world salad claims that organized crime only exists because it gets incentives from the state, such as an easily bribed police force. Since Libertarians believe the state is directly responsible for organized crime, it won't exist in a stateless society, because DROs with only the oversight of...rational actors ( Really looking forward it buying stock in the Somali Pirate Stock Exchange when it goes international. Fun times 
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Aug 13, 2014 14:10
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Psykmoe posted:The initial DRO world salad claims that organized crime only exists because it gets incentives from the state, such as an easily bribed police force. Since Libertarians believe the state is directly responsible for organized crime, it won't exist in a stateless society, because DROs with only the oversight of...rational actors ( Whoever wrote that has obviously never studied organized crime. Holy poo poo, it has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of police. There is almost no difference between the mafia and a DRO. For that matter, there is virtually no difference between a common street gang- many if which provide their communities with protection, dispute resolution, jobs, limited safety net payments, and basic public goods- and a DRO.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:19
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Lol Hamas is a literal DRO
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Aug 13, 2014 14:22
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Any minute now another DRO is going to arise in the free marketplace of force in Northern Iraq, promising not to loot banks, extort money from towns, or behead Shias, and their superior customer service will lure away customers and bankrupt ISIS
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Aug 13, 2014 14:30
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