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Karnegal posted:So read something abstract and experimental. I'm on a film kick, so to make a film analogy, it's like slapping a tripy abstract sequence in the middle of an otherwise straight action movie. It's not constantly applied, doesn't mesh, and feels like the creator is trying to pretend they're deep. It seems there's two alternatives:
Pick whichever you like, I'm going with #2.
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Aug 14, 2014 01:20
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Even as someone who thought the books were pretty crappy I did like the "cut-flower" sound line
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Aug 14, 2014 01:33
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The best thing that these books have going for them is that they are a tangled knot of meta-stories about a guy telling a story about looking for the truth behind a story to a guy who is looking for the truth about the story of the guy who is telling the story to him. The depth of the concepts of how language and stories change over time and depending on who is telling them in amazing, and far more interesting than the minutia of Kvothe's finances. The mystery behind the Lackless/Lochees/Lockless family name, and Kvothe's sword Saicere/Caesura/Kaysera are two great examples.
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Aug 14, 2014 04:23
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:It seems there's two alternatives: It is #2 and I find it hilarious how much time he spends posting about his loathing for these books.
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Aug 14, 2014 10:25
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Kadath posted:The best thing that these books have going for them is that they are a tangled knot of meta-stories about a guy telling a story about looking for the truth behind a story to a guy who is looking for the truth about the story of the guy who is telling the story to him. Absolutely this. I love stories within stories. Does anyone know other good examples? I loved Princess Bride and House of Leaves, but surely there are other great meta-stories. Your comment gave me a thought. There are a lot of tantalizing, mysterious truths hidden within stories within stories within stories. Similarly, there are several tantalizing, mysterious treasures located within boxes within boxes. I could be massively misremembering, but isn't the Lackless box implied to contain the box which contains the moon's name? If so, there is the truth of the war which basically formed the world, and it is contained within the story the lady tells Kvothe inside the story Kvothe tells the chronicler. Then there is the stolen treasure that sparked the war locked in a box which is sealed inside a different box. I like the parallel layering. Then there is whatever is in Kvothe's chest. That chest is in the tavern which feels a bit like a container. The of course there are the mysterious doors within the library within the academy.
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Aug 14, 2014 11:20
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Wittgen posted:Absolutely this. I love stories within stories. Does anyone know other good examples? I loved Princess Bride and House of Leaves, but surely there are other great meta-stories. Ugh, the more I remember this stuff the more I realize there isn't going to be just one more book. This is gonna spiral into a new ASoIaF isn't it?
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Aug 14, 2014 13:20
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Wittgen posted:Absolutely this. I love stories within stories. Does anyone know other good examples? I loved Princess Bride and House of Leaves, but surely there are other great meta-stories. If only the second book would have been about those interesting things instead of fairy sex.
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Aug 14, 2014 13:22
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Wittgen posted:Absolutely this. I love stories within stories. Does anyone know other good examples? I loved Princess Bride and House of Leaves, but surely there are other great meta-stories. I think Bridge of Birds sorta counts. But even if it doesn't, read it anyways because it's good! And it's fairly short too so it's not like it will take up a lot of your time.
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Aug 14, 2014 16:54
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Srice posted:I think Bridge of Birds sorta counts. Thank you for the recommendation. Fantasy ancient China? Definitely on my list.
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Aug 14, 2014 17:04
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Wittgen posted:Absolutely this. I love stories within stories. Does anyone know other good examples? I loved Princess Bride and House of Leaves, but surely there are other great meta-stories. Book of the New Sun has stories within stories within stories. I cannot hype this series enough.
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Aug 14, 2014 17:48
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Benson Cunningham posted:Book of the New Sun has stories within stories within stories. I cannot hype this series enough. Word. It is Gene Wolfe translating the autobiography of an old man who frequently lies about his past and in this man's story there are dozens of other plays, dreams, and fables that all have meaning relating to the greater story as a whole. BotNS is meta as gently caress.
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Aug 14, 2014 19:30
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Can't resist hyping Gene Wolfe - go read Book of the new sun. It's an incredibly dense text, you'll find something new even at the 3rd re-read. And Gene Wolfe is smarter than you (or me)!
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Aug 14, 2014 20:42
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Maybe it's just me, and has to do with how far I got in, but I didn't find Book of the New Sun very good. Wolfe sacrifices clarity for tone, and it doesn't really feel like anything is happening, at least in the beginning. Maybe things actually are happening, but the particular style he uses makes the narrative so incredibly opaque. Maybe I'm just dumb, though. Rothfuss, for as little as happens in his gigantic books, at least has transparent prose. You know what is happening when it happens.
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Aug 14, 2014 22:50
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I've never understood that criticism about BotNS. Even if you only look at the very surface of the story, a lot of poo poo happens in Shadow of the Torturer.
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Aug 15, 2014 03:00
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They're not saying nothing at all happens, they're saying that at least at the start its difficult to follow what's going on, which I agree with. I stopped reading Book of The New Sun a couple times cause of that.
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Aug 15, 2014 03:24
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China Mieville's Kraken is very much about storytelling and tropes as well. It doesn't have as many stories within stories, but it does break down the idea of storytelling and address it in several ways. A lot of people didn't dig it but I think it's good stuff.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:15
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Andrast posted:If only the second book would have been about those interesting things instead of fairy sex. Like finally acquiring a level of financial independence, leveling up his melee and unarmed stats, meeting a malicious oracle which may lead to great tragedy and chaos, acquiring his famous cloak, becoming more adept at naming and so on? Truly a shame that sex was had in a book.
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Aug 15, 2014 20:30
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While stuff definitely happened in the second book, it's rather disingenuous to say that people bitched about the Felurian section because they think sex is icky!
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Aug 15, 2014 21:05
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snooman posted:Like finally acquiring a level of financial independence, leveling up his melee and unarmed stats, meeting a malicious oracle which may lead to great tragedy and chaos, acquiring his famous cloak, becoming more adept at naming and so on? No one has complained about the hate tree. Everyone loves the hate tree. We all wish the book was just about the hate tree.
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Aug 15, 2014 22:02
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Srice posted:While stuff definitely happened in the second book, it's rather disingenuous to say that people bitched about the Felurian section because they think sex is icky! Although, if I recall correctly, that's exactly how Patrick Rothfuss himself responds to complaints about the Felurian section.
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Aug 15, 2014 22:07
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My problem with the sex fairy portion was it was hundreds of pages long and exactly one interesting thing happened during it. And that interesting thing was like 4 paragraphs long. Same with the Adem.
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Aug 16, 2014 06:00
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I don't have my copy of the book on hand, but I highly doubt that the Felurian portion was "hundreds" of pages long.
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Aug 16, 2014 06:34
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jivjov posted:I don't have my copy of the book on hand, but I highly doubt that the Felurian portion was "hundreds" of pages long.
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Aug 16, 2014 07:02
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Solice Kirsk posted:My problem with the sex fairy portion was it was hundreds of pages long and exactly one interesting thing happened during it. And that interesting thing was like 4 paragraphs long.
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Aug 16, 2014 07:05
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The content makes a huge difference. I could easily read 100 pages of an interesting book in no time, but one dull page could take hours. For me that section was what finally made me put the book down, I just couldn't bear to finish reading through it. I don't remember the tree, I must have skimmed over it. As much as I hate skim-reading, I don't feel like I've really missed anything.
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Aug 16, 2014 10:32
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If you don't remember the tree, you missed at least one huge something. I agree it's a bit weird that he choose to write sex scenes the same way Robert Jordan wrote sword fights in Wheel of Time, but I don't get how so many people found it so unbearable. Maybe I just read too many fantasy novels growing up.
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Aug 16, 2014 11:42
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Wittgen posted:If you don't remember the tree, you missed at least one huge something. I didn't find it unbearable - and I didn't skip it when I reread or anything - but I did feel like it dragged on longer than it needed to. I think a more involved editor could have said 'can you cut this section (before the tree) in half?' and we wouldn't really have lost anything.
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Aug 16, 2014 11:52
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Wittgen posted:If you don't remember the tree, you missed at least one huge something. It goes on way longer than it should and it's so awkward I almost died from secondhand embarrassment while reading that part because goddamn, the way it was written was awful. The tree stuff is fascinating! But it's a pity that it's only a few pages whereas fairy sex keeps on going and going and
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Aug 16, 2014 14:52
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Laverna posted:The content makes a huge difference. I could easily read 100 pages of an interesting book in no time, but one dull page could take hours. For me that section was what finally made me put the book down, I just couldn't bear to finish reading through it.
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Aug 16, 2014 15:20
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I remember an interview somewhere where he didn't have the fairy sex stuff in the original draft as much as he does in the final. His editor was like "there isn't enough sex in this book fantasy books have sex put more sex in this book". Not sure if that's true or not or if I'm remembering correctly.
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Aug 16, 2014 15:37
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Star War Sex Parrot posted:The Somewhat Interesting Trees Chronicles. Well there have been 2 somewhat interesting trees and 0 king killing so I'd say that is an apt description so far.
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Aug 16, 2014 15:47
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Wittgen posted:If you don't remember the tree, you missed at least one huge something. For me at least it was just because the ridiculousness reached its peak. Until then I'd been reading the books with the thought that nobody could possibly be writing it while taking themselves seriously and when I came to the point with the sex goddess it was sort of like a final straw - whether they were serious or not became irrelevant as it was just too stupid and I felt like I was wasting my time that could have been better spent doing something productive, like staring at a wall. (Yes it's been over a year and I'm still very cynical about it) I would have probably been able to take the tree part a bit more seriously if I hadn't stopped paying attention around then. Does anyone have a summary of the important tree things that happen?
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Aug 16, 2014 16:44
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Laverna posted:I would have probably been able to take the tree part a bit more seriously if I hadn't stopped paying attention around then. Tree tl;dr: the tree is evil, has perfect precognition and will only talk to you to gently caress you up. If the tree appears in a play, it's always a sign of horrible tragedy. There is an entire fairy group dedicated to killing anyone who has seen the tree. Or just look at the reread comments on chapters 102 and 103 here: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/02/rothfuss-reread-the-wise-mans-fear-part-19-all-their-choices-will-be-the-wrong-ones Also Jesus loving Christ, that reread is from February 2012 and we still don't have the third book. What the gently caress has Rothfuss been doing for the last 3 years? ulmont fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Aug 16, 2014 |
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Aug 16, 2014 16:52
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It's supposedly coming out next year right? With the Auri novella coming out this fall.
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Aug 16, 2014 18:17
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My pet theory is that the tree is not actually evil but rather knows that the world is so hosed that the best possible long term outcome involves some truly heinous poo poo going down, which has driven it slightly mad.
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Aug 16, 2014 18:33
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Flattened Spoon posted:I remember an interview somewhere where he didn't have the fairy sex stuff in the original draft as much as he does in the final. His editor was like "there isn't enough sex in this book fantasy books have sex put more sex in this book". Not sure if that's true or not or if I'm remembering correctly. It happens a lot actually. My cousin just pushed out her second novel (which is impressive in this market! Pretty generic mystery/thriller stuff but still) and went on about how she was told to sex it up a bit. Not much of an excuse, I sat for the fairy sexing because I give most authors a freebie and it paid off. Sex ninjas were dumb and could have 100% been done without the stupid sex thing. As for recommendations, all you prose haters will love the Black Company by Glen Cook, also most of his sci-fi and the Instrumentalities of the Night too. THe Black Company is sort of a 'what a fantasy world looks like from the point of view of the average joe,' mostly centered on a doctor working for a mercenary company working for the regional evil overlord-ess. Bleak and realistic without being pointlessly grim, our protagonists show heroics and competence without ever stretching credulity, it's quite fun. Real good stuff, I can recommend it without caveats.
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Aug 17, 2014 04:52
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The first time I read through the felurian part I really thought it was tedious and skimmed through quite a bit of it. I read it again recently and really made a point not to skip and it honestly wasnt as bad as I remembered, the actual sex was not interesting and kinda cringe inducing but there was still some really interesting parts while kvothe was in the fae. The hate tree is definitely number one on the list, and felurian telling the story about iax was pretty good as well. It was interesting to note that even the fae dont like to speak about the chandrian. Then it was also really interesting to read about the process of the shaed being created, and if you can forgive some of the mary sue-ness of it kvothe naming felurian was actually pretty bad rear end. I'm not saying that section didnt have its issues but there were some interesting things happening there, they just get over shadowed by the bad stuff.
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Aug 17, 2014 05:42
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I agree that the fae part is generally interesting, even if it only serves to juxtapose with the more "earthy" feel the rest of the world has. The problem with the sex parts is that it reads like fanfic written by a virgin who was really into anime.
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Aug 17, 2014 05:50
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Above Our Own posted:fanfic written by a virgin who was really into anime. This describes almost all of the Kvothe/female interests interactions. As fun as many other sections of the books are to read, any male/female romance scenes between Kvothe and whoever is just painful.
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Aug 17, 2014 14:05
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snooman posted:Like finally acquiring a level of financial independence, leveling up his melee and unarmed stats, meeting a malicious oracle which may lead to great tragedy and chaos, acquiring his famous cloak, becoming more adept at naming and so on? Didn't all of that happen in the last few hundred pages of the book? That doesn't really refute complaints about not much happening in the book. I just got done reading a fantastic 300 page YA novel where like, a huge amount more stuff happened in those three hundred pages then happened in like what? 1500 pages? That's the real problem. Though to be fair, while the oracle tree is a great idea, I don't remember it telling him anything he literally did not know or hadn't decided to go deal with already. It seemed wasted to me.
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Aug 19, 2014 11:53
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