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That's why you do what I did and play the SS guys who weren't actually Nazis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Estonian)
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Aug 14, 2014 08:15
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I'm planning to do SS-Totenkopf at some point because lol if you still believe the clean Wehrmacht myth. Might as well go whole hog and model the literal cartoon villains and admit you're terrible
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Aug 14, 2014 11:35
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No way, the German people TOTALLY didn't know what Hitler was up to, and they were all innocent even though they all voted for the Nazis.
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Aug 14, 2014 12:34
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Finland and some of the minor powers are probably much better choices for "clean Axis." I thought the Charlemagne SS might be an option for players who don't want to paint up tiny genocide fanatics, but those guys were actually pretty douche too.
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Aug 14, 2014 12:46
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Also Italy, who were only as assholish as the Brits
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Aug 14, 2014 12:49
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But to be fair, playing the Red Army marching in to Berlin isn't exactly pure and wholesome either. They raped everything. Literally everything. E: Basically, remember it's a game and that the history it represents had some really bad poo poo, but it's still a game.
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Aug 14, 2014 12:56
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Numlock posted:*quickly throws blanket over 15mm diorama of auschwitz* I showed up at my LGS one Saturday to find one of the new guys had set up the board. It looked alright, and I saw a village in the corner. "That's a concentration camp," he said. My mind just about broke. Mind you, he's a purely American player, and is lacking in social graces, but that was the first time I've ever had to take a "grown" man aside and explain the facts of life to him, and why that is A Bad ThingTM Otherwise, I run HG Panzers and FJ. I know who Goring was, but I want to push around PIIIs in Italy. FJs just have a good rating and I'd just as soon go back to Italians. Though now that Buffalo Soldiers are now officially in Late War... Forums Terrorist posted:Also Italy, who were only as assholish as the Brits Fun fact: despite being a Fascist, Mussolini actually gave Libyans more or less full rights as Italian citizens. Something the previous government failed to do. Still a wannabe Caesar.
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Aug 14, 2014 12:56
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Italians look great and if I actually knew people who played mid/early war I'd be playing nothing but Italians.
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Aug 14, 2014 13:52
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I've seen a guy playing FoW in an SS t-shirt. I still cringe remembering it. On the one hand, yeah they're game pieces - but it's definitely a YMMV issue and everybody has their own comfort lines. Here in Pennsylvania we have a ton of hate groups, and they're more pervasive than you'd expect. The Holocaust is not as historically remote as I'd like it to be, so I'm always wary of gaming the more extreme stuff. There's just too much baggage for me to have any fun with it.
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Aug 14, 2014 14:11
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I'm mostly playing in a basement shared with, among others, an autonomous anti-fascist group. Which has riot shields, helmets and trophy neo-nazi t-shirts in the storage room. The risk of running into someone who has an unhealthy attachment to a SS army feels.... small.
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Aug 14, 2014 14:18
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YF19pilot posted:Fun fact: despite being a Fascist, Mussolini actually gave Libyans more or less full rights as Italian citizens. Something the previous government failed to do. Still a wannabe Caesar. Probably because the whole racial superiority thing was specific to Nazi-ism, and not really a part of fascism as invented in Italy until Mussolini had to take an anti-semitic line to appease Hitler, because it was pretty clear by then who the bitch was. Colonial Air Force posted:No way, the German people TOTALLY didn't know what Hitler was up to, and they were all innocent even though they all voted for the Nazis. Also all the war crimes were committed by the foreign volunteer SS divisions in violation of orders, and against their own people no less, the true German SS divisions would never do something so dishonourable
NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 14:27
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I think the only way I could play an SS unit would be to run an absolute poo poo list and just lose every game. I'd probably still feel bad. Regular German army, whatever, no issue. I don't fault others for it though, and I'd play against it no problem, assuming they're not some awful racist, it just makes me feel weird to think about doing it myself.
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Aug 14, 2014 14:32
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El Estrago Bonito posted:That's why you do what I did and play the SS guys who weren't actually Nazis. If you think the Baltic SS divisions were innocent of war crimes, then boy are you ever mistaken. Colonial Air Force posted:But to be fair, playing the Red Army marching in to Berlin isn't exactly pure and wholesome either. They raped everything. Literally everything. A Red Armyman caught raping/pillaging got a firing squad. moths posted:Finland and some of the minor powers are probably much better choices for "clean Axis." I thought the Charlemagne SS might be an option for players who don't want to paint up tiny genocide fanatics, but those guys were actually pretty douche too. If I were to play an Axis power, I'd probably choose Finland, if only to field ridiculous armoured units like a Vickers 6-ton, a Renault FT, a T-28 and a T-50. The Gate posted:I think the only way I could play an SS unit would be to run an absolute poo poo list and just lose every game. I'd probably still feel bad. Regular German army, whatever, no issue. For additional historical accuracy, after you lose, you should brag about the 50 other guys you totally demolished. At the same time. No, you don't know them, they are from Canada.
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Aug 14, 2014 14:37
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Ensign Expendable posted:A Red Armyman caught raping/pillaging got a firing squad. Most of the time, no they didn't. Source.
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Aug 14, 2014 14:48
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Is it really that big an issue in Historical War Games? Play whatever faction you want but save your philosophical waxing about how the Khmer Rouge wasn't that bad for your horrible blog. If you can't stop prattling on about how the Cambodian genocide is being over stated by historians and how Pol Pot was just misunderstood, I will just never play you again, you deviant. Shunning is a real thing, and it works!
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Aug 14, 2014 14:57
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That's kind of what I was getting at, certainly what I think is the right way to go. I mean, poo poo, I have an entire "terrorist" army for FoF/AA!
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Aug 14, 2014 14:59
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Colonial Air Force posted:That's kind of what I was getting at, certainly what I think is the right way to go. You MONSTER!
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Aug 14, 2014 15:02
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Colonial Air Force is literally supporting ISIS in this thread. Mods!?!?
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Aug 14, 2014 15:08
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Colonial Air Force posted:Most of the time, no they didn't. I can dig you up some execution orders if you want. Maybe the "caught" part didn't happen so often, but the point is that in the Red Army such conduct was discouraged and illegal, and in the SS it was not.
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Aug 14, 2014 15:41
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The Kremlin had fits over that famous photo of a soldier waving a flag over the captured Reichstag. He appeared to be wearing a watch on both wrists, and the photo had to be retouched by propagandists to avoid the appearance of looting. The funny part is that he was most likely wearing a watch and wrist compass anyway.
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Aug 14, 2014 16:15
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Ensign Expendable posted:I can dig you up some execution orders if you want. Maybe the "caught" part didn't happen so often, but the point is that in the Red Army such conduct was discouraged and illegal, and in the SS it was not. This isn't really the thread to argue about it, but seriously, there were countless rapes, plenty of looting, and most officers turned a blind eye (including the NKVD).
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Aug 14, 2014 16:32
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It isn't but I want to watch Ensign take you apart. Historicals: That's not the proper reprisal for Russian looting in April of 1945
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Aug 14, 2014 16:37
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Forums Terrorist posted:It isn't but I want to watch Ensign take you apart. I posted my source. That there were executions doe snot mean it was not widespread and, frankly, endemic. I say these things as a Russophile, I play Sovs on the table, and I reenact the Red Army in WW2. It's not like I hate the Russians or something, but the fact is they raped a lot of women, and not just Germans either. Edit: Here are some more. 3 Action Economist fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 16:42
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Colonial Air Force posted:This isn't really the thread to argue about it, but seriously, there were countless rapes, plenty of looting, and most officers turned a blind eye (including the NKVD). The NKVD had other things to worry about. This didn't fall under their jurisdiction. The fact that political instruction took a turn for "these people aren't fascists, don't rape and pillage your way to Berlin" in mid-1944 illustrates that as an organization, the Red Army was unambiguously against collateral damage and willing to take extreme measures to discourage it.
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Aug 14, 2014 16:55
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They may have instructed that, but it sure didn't take. E: Stalin didn't order them to stop until January of '45. Prior to that, he said things like he understood it "if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle" and, "We lecture our soldiers too much; let them have their initiative." 3 Action Economist fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 16:56
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Colonial Air Force posted:That's kind of what I was getting at, certainly what I think is the right way to go. We need to get more imaginative the next time someone murders a bunch of civilians here. Maybe have it on a Tuesday to shake things up a bit.
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Aug 14, 2014 17:10
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This is all the Spanish Inquisition's fault. If during the reconquista they hadn't fomented antijewish and muslim sentiment until the marranos and mariscos were perpetually suspected of capital crimes and ejected from Castile and Aragon, the nazis would have had to find some other convenient target for their idiotic rhetoric, and then the russians might have had nobody to rape! Bottom line, when I'm playing El Cid, if I see someone put an inquisitorial dungeon on the table, I get pretty upset. We can just call that a 'local government building' without having to get all specific and creepy. I also don't play muppet-league wars between the Pigs in Space and 'It's not Easy Being Green Berets' with a french restaurant on the board. Because how much of a sick gently caress do you have to be? TheCosmicMuffet fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 17:20
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TheCosmicMuffet posted:This is all the Spanish Inquisition's fault. If during the reconquista they hadn't fomented antijewish and muslim sentiment until the marranos and mariscos were perpetually suspected of capital crimes and ejected from Castile and Aragon, the nazis would have had to find some other convenient target for their idiotic rhetoric, and then the russians might have had nobody to rape! Where are your sources 
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Aug 14, 2014 17:34
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NTRabbit posted:Where are your sources My Jewish Grandparents  
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Aug 14, 2014 17:56
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Chinese uniform question: nobody makes 28mm Chinese, so would Russians work with German headswaps and US weapons?
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Aug 14, 2014 18:52
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MohawkSatan posted:And thus, one of the two things that is still keeping me out of historical tabletop games: my overwhelming hatred of Nazis and Nazi apologists. Modeling after an SS Division because of how they were equipped and the battles they fought? Okay, fine, whatever, as long as it's accepted that they were the goddamned SS and about as irredeemable as it gets. The instant someone starts apologizing for them,or saying poo poo like 'they weren't all bad', then someone needs the stupid smacked out of them. This comes back to my earlier post. Historical wargaming does not start and end with WW2. 
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Aug 14, 2014 19:05
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moths posted:Chinese uniform question: nobody makes 28mm Chinese, so would Russians work with German headswaps and US weapons? I found some things. http://brigadegames.3dcartstores.com/China-at-War_c_33.html Serotonin posted:This comes back to my earlier post. Historical wargaming does not start and end with WW2. Keep fighting the good fight. By which I mean the one we fought in WW2. Against evil.
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Aug 14, 2014 19:13
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moths posted:I've seen a guy playing FoW in an SS t-shirt. I still cringe remembering it. Hah, at a tournament I recently went to, some of the prizes you could get were these t-shirts that were laying flat on the table. One t-shirt looked was very cool looking, had a Panther and the words "PANZER COMMANDER" on the front. Anyway naturally I didn't do that well and others got the t-shirts before me. Turns out on the back of that shirt I wanted was a huge picture of notorious war criminal Joachim Peiper. There apparently was another shirt of a similar theme showing his "tour dates" with the names of towns and villages that he had some of his more famous actions in. No doubt a few of them were also the locations of war crimes.
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Aug 14, 2014 19:13
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moths posted:Chinese uniform question: nobody makes 28mm Chinese, so would Russians work with German headswaps and US weapons? Warlord recently put out a free Chinese Army list for Bolt Action, and they're working on a full version. I assume this means they will also come out with miniatures, as that's what they do.
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Aug 14, 2014 19:24
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That's their usual MO, so I might be better off waiting. Those metal ones look good, but $10USD for four riflemen is going to add up quickly!
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Aug 14, 2014 19:30
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Numlock posted:Hah, at a tournament I recently went to, some of the prizes you could get were these t-shirts that were laying flat on the table. Ugh, those shirts, why do they exist? Made it down to my FLGS in MD to check out the Flames of War crowd this past Monday. A friend and I just got the rulebooks and some minis to start armies with (US for me, Germans for him). There were about 10 people playing on their game night, which was nice to see. Everyone was super welcoming and offered to lend us armies the next time we went so we could try some full games while getting our own armies up and running. One of the nicest guys was wearing a black polo with the SS Totenkopf skull and shield right there like a little logo. So incongruous.
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Aug 14, 2014 19:38
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I'd like to make a respectful request that we stop commenting on the fact that the SS (or whoever) were responsible for war crimes, and that nerds can be tone deaf. Also, and this is only sort of related, if you're going to talk about some historical figure, skim the wikipedia article. Who knows, it might be interesting. And finally, regarding how to square the fact that sometimes, while playing historical wargames, you might be reminded of the darker sides of history; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFbvobO2NIQ
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Aug 14, 2014 19:46
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Yeah, that's probably better general chat or industry discussion. Although a quick look at the Bolt Action China list should be a good reminder that nerds really could use some remedial cultural tone training. 
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Aug 14, 2014 19:58
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In actual game chat - for Flames of War I'm going with a US infantry company from Devil's Charge for my first list. So far I've picked up the Winter Infantry company box, a blister of mortars, some 57mm AT guns, and a box of PSC M4A3 Late Shermans. Where should I go from there? More tanks, some bigger artillery?
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Aug 14, 2014 20:01
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I think you're good to get a game or two in before you commit to other stuff, but the only thing you seem to be missing in terms of major troop classes is some big gun artillery.
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Aug 14, 2014 20:16
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