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Holy_Zarquon posted:Okay, I need some clarification I think. (Mid-Bonehunters right now) It was offered to him, but Rhulad was there first/a better candidate/crazy enough to take the role. Kallor filled the role of Reaver for a time instead.
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Aug 11, 2014 22:29
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Oh, interesting. I didn't realize that the ICE books were intermingled within the Malazan Book of the Fallen storyline/timeline. I think that I'll reread the main series and follow that wertzone link reading order, then.
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Aug 11, 2014 22:50
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Holy_Zarquon posted:Okay, I need some clarification I think. (Mid-Bonehunters right now) ICE spoilers - At that point, it's Skinner, aka 2nd in command of the Crimson Guard. Kallor is Reaver with ambitions.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:05
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Baudin posted:Don't take any of those positions too literally - they also shift rather dramatically, which I believe is what you're seeing there. I'm seeing this more and more now in Bonehunters, specifically the switching around of the Consort role so that makes sense.
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Aug 12, 2014 14:15
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Torrent's a pretty cool guy with a good character arc. I was a bit surprised he never got any powers or ascended but still kicked rear end. Not super whiny like Cutter either. Wish there were more dudes like him.
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Aug 12, 2014 16:03
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Torrent ended up being one of my favorites by the end of TCG, though this may be a biased outlook born from him 360 no-scope headshotting Olar Ethil with his dying breath.
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Aug 12, 2014 19:26
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Finished Assail. Without spoiling anything, I felt it delivered on the hype of Assail as a very dangerous place and overall liked it quite a lot as the resolution to a few MBotF side plots. It was better than Blood and Bone and it managed to make Kyle into an actually interesting character. Some nice setup for the Karsa trilogy too.
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Aug 13, 2014 21:28
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About halfway done Assail and I have to say that I am enjoying it. The mystery-man doesn't show up for a while, so it's a refreshing change from the "here is a mystery person for 200 pages when you all knew who it was on page 1" thing he does. The writing continues to improve, the storyline is interesting except for the crimson guard again. So far anyway; maybe they will step up and stop being so boring. This is not a spoiler: I really enjoyed the 4-warships all hanging out with each other and the adventure through the narrows. The best of all the nations.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:09
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I wandered into a bookshop today and read the first chapter. Kyle has stopped being crap.  Also some pretty good writing there, other than "The Dread Sea or, as some called it, the Sea of Dread" which I am convinced is a joke reference.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:31
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Similarly enjoying Assail, though I'm surprised ICE eschewed the short quotes before chapters. Maybe I'm misremembering, but I'm pretty confident all his other Malazan books have had 'em.
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Aug 14, 2014 00:21
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rejutka posted:I wandered into a bookshop today and read the first chapter. Kyle has stopped being crap. It's a running joke. This time around Kyle is pretty badass.
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Aug 14, 2014 04:19
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Yeah but he's still called Kyle and his actual name makes him sound like a cheap '70s TV show space robot that befriends a kid who is not allowed to have a dog or something.
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Aug 14, 2014 04:25
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I, too, just finished Assail, and...I don't know. I enjoyed the story (though the quality of individual ones varied), but thought the prose a step back from B&B and OST. Specifically, I enjoyed most of Orman (though the whole saga with losing the spear came off super contrived), virtually all of the invader plotlines, and Kyle once he actually got going (his initial adventures were painful). Less impressive were the Crimson Guard, who have all of the personality and charm of the lower intestine. As much as I was interested and driven to discover the origins of the vow itself, I cared nothing for the fates of the actual Guardsmen. This was, to me anyway, a marked contrast even from Stonewielder, which gave Bars and Shimmer (and everyone else) some dimension. "Now I see why they call you Iron Bars"  Other than that, I was not a fan of the fight scenes. At all. Almost uniformly terrible. And finally, Jethiss. The character himself was fine, probably one of the most consistent ones. But urrggggggh it was so obviously set up to make it seem like Anomander, that when it actually was Anomander it felt like a huge letdown.
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Aug 14, 2014 05:24
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The more I read about the ICE books, the less I want to read them.
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Aug 14, 2014 14:36
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ChickenWing posted:The more I read about the ICE books, the less I want to read them. ICE books aren't great. They're okay. But they're mostly read for the additional Malazan stories and loose ends, not his writing of them. Still, his last three have been decent, and the writing has been improving, but I thought this one was clunky.
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Aug 14, 2014 14:51
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That's pretty much it. You read them in order to take a peek at the places Erikson only mentions and the ideas and setting are usually solid enough to get you over the writing. Well, if you can stomach the "liberties" ICE takes with the characters - I can't stand the way he writes Kruppe, for example. All in all, we're probably lucky he only did six books and they don't have much of an overarching plotline without much effect on the world.
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Aug 14, 2014 15:41
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I really dislike the odd things Esselmont does. A Crimson Guardsman didn't eat for a week and the leader says "It's inhuman!" What? No it's not, you didn't eat for about a month in the previous book you stupid gently caress.
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Aug 14, 2014 16:29
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ChickenWing posted:The more I read about the ICE books, the less I want to read them. ICE books are standard genre fantasy. If you've slogged through a lot of that it's pretty decent. He just suffers compared to Erickson, because Erickson is a more gifted writer that elevates his genre fiction to well above average for the type. I give him credit for the world building, though, as apparently that was joint between the two.
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Aug 14, 2014 21:01
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Zeitgueist posted:I give him credit for the world building, though, as apparently that was joint between the two. It's unfortunate that the incredible world building behind the series barely even comes through in ICEs novels. At times, the guy reminds me of Glen Cook in terms of his inability to provide you with a good 'zoomed out' view of what's going on in a broader sense - even when they try.
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Aug 14, 2014 21:05
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Habibi posted:It's unfortunate that the incredible world building behind the series barely even comes through in ICEs novels. At times, the guy reminds me of Glen Cook in terms of his inability to provide you with a good 'zoomed out' view of what's going on in a broader sense - even when they try. Yeah, on Assail: The ending is pretty anticlimatic, we have a new peace struck between the 4 races and the big set piece is tossing cussers at a glacier. The continent is barely characterized other than a bunch of lovely wastelands filled with angry people and golddiggers and then some scary mountains. I guess the book works as sort of an epilogue to the series. It was an OK read but nothing great, certainly not compared to the SE books or even ICE's earlier work. I also get critical levels of "don't give a poo poo" and "can't remember who this dude is" on the characters which never happens on the SE books.
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Aug 14, 2014 21:18
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The Erikson books make up a pretty good series. They're on the order of Wheel of Time where the writing is above average for the genre, the ideas are mostly interesting, and the things drag on for loving ever but they're just able to keep you going to see what (eventually) happens next in between the pulp. They were a good backup series for times when I was out of other books or I wanted something to chew up time at an airport or on a bus. For me the series peaked in the stories that almost entirely followed those gray elf (whatever they were called) brothers and the Beddicts adventures in the medieval land of capitalism. I'd honestly rather the entire series have been focused on those guys than the Malazans themselves. I thought they were both, individually and when they intertwined, more compelling and creative. edit: Not that the Malazan stuff was bad, but in general it just felt a little bit too much like the Black Company with more humor and better writing while the other storylines were more unique. YoungSexualNorton fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Aug 15, 2014 |
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Aug 15, 2014 00:56
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Alrighty then.
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Aug 15, 2014 01:09
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I have a pretty different opinion about Jethiss. When Jethiss is leaving he says he has to go back to Black Coral visit the grave of an old friend that he used to play card games with. Throughout the book we see Jethiss fighting with two weapons. Sounds a lot more like Spinnock Durav than Anomander to me.
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Aug 15, 2014 07:32
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Doesn't he specifically say "mother dark gave me the name son of darkness" ??
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Aug 15, 2014 11:38
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Spermy Smurf posted:Doesn't he specifically say "mother dark gave me the name son of darkness" ?? He's clearly Silchas with a suntan.
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Aug 15, 2014 12:38
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Spermy Smurf posted:Doesn't he specifically say "mother dark gave me the name son of darkness" ?? Son of Darkness is just a title, like King of Chains. Anomander Rake wasn't literally the son of Mother Dark, he was just her appointed champion.
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Aug 15, 2014 22:25
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The Ninth Layer posted:Son of Darkness is just a title, like King of Chains. Anomander Rake wasn't literally the son of Mother Dark, he was just her appointed champion. Exactly. Rake was the son of darkness, not the card player dude whose name I can't scroll down and see because I am on phone.
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Aug 15, 2014 23:02
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The Ninth Layer posted:Son of Darkness is just a title, like King of Chains. Anomander Rake wasn't literally the son of Mother Dark, he was just her appointed champion. Actually, he was the Son of Darkness (actually the First Son of Darkness - just the other two are basically off the map by the time the series rolls around) because he and his brothers were adopted by Mother Dark into her family (FoD). It makes sense that he remarks something to the effect that, now, it's just a title. There's also the whole thing with his hair (which is implied to have/be silver because of his mother), the ability to channel Kurald Galain, and the power to crush and dismember a T'lan arm with his bare hands. You could argue these were granted by Mother Dark for his quest or whatever, but that seems like overcomplicating the simpler alternative that Anomander's soul retains Anomander's qualities (which we've seen with soul shifting). Also, Spinnock Durav, IIRC (and I could be wrong) hasn't died, while it could make sense that, since Rake was trying to bridge the distance to MD and the Gate of Darkness at the time all the Dragnipur poo poo went down and the sword was broken, his soul would end up wandering around the aforementioned Gate. I agree the comment about visiting the grave of a friend with whom he used to play Kef Tanar could easily suggest Spinnock, but I thought he may have been talking about Endest Silann. e: and Spinnock didn't fight with two weapons, that I recall (while Jethiss' doing so seemed more like a function of circumstance - he certainly won't be fighting with two weapons any more, ha) Habibi fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Aug 15, 2014 |
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Aug 15, 2014 23:04
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Regarding the end of Assail, I quote: "And your memories?" "With me once more." "Then," Fisher asked, "would you give us your name?" "Mother Dark offered me a title." Fisher's breath caught. He spoke low, as if not daring to say the words aloud. "Son of Darkness..." Jethiss gestured, inviting them to stand with him. "Now more of an honorific, in truth." So whether or not Anomander was literally the son of Mother Dark, the implication here is that Jethiss was offered the title of Son of Darkness. That doesn't make sense if he's Anomander, who was already the Son of Darkness and wouldn't need the offer. Jethiss also adds that the title is "now more of an honorific" which again implies a change in ownership. Maybe I'm wrong about Jethiss being Spinnock, but I think there's plenty of clues in the text to suggest he's not Anomander returned. The Ninth Layer fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Aug 16, 2014 |
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Aug 16, 2014 01:21
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The Ninth Layer posted:So whether or not Anomander was literally the son of Mother Dark, the implication here is that Jethiss was offered the title of Son of Darkness. That doesn't make sense if he's Anomander, who was already the Son of Darkness and wouldn't need the offer. Jethiss also adds that the title is "now more of an honorific" which again implies a change in ownership. quote:Maybe I'm wrong about Jethiss being Spinnock, but I think there's plenty of clues in the text to suggest he's not Anomander returned. Now there are a few head scratchers, so I am not 100% convinced, but I do think the signs point to him and if it ends up being a false trail it'll be clunky as hell (imo). Habibi fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Aug 16, 2014 |
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Aug 16, 2014 01:49
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Plus the Malazan universe has a huge boner for Rake.
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Aug 16, 2014 02:04
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Spermy Smurf posted:Plus the Malazan universe has a huge boner for Rake. That's the biggest reason I was disappointed by [what I interpreted as] the reveal. The guy was an amazing character, but he should have been allowed to have his moment in the
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Aug 16, 2014 02:08
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Habibi posted:Regardless of who Jethiss is, I don't think any of the above follows. And him saying the title is now an honorific could as (if not more) easily be interpreted as him saying, 'well I was the [adopted] Son of Darkness, but now it's really just an honorific.' And if he is not Anomander, it's strange that he doesn't correct Fisher's obvious belief. Fisher never says "Holy crap you're Anomander!" so it's not like there's the natural opportunity for Jethiss to say "No I'm not Anomander." I would need to go read through again but I'm reasonably certain that Rake's name is never even spoken within Jethiss' earshot. Also, how are you explaining away "Mother Dark offered me the title"? If it's Anomander coming back then what changed where he used to be Mother Dark's adopted son but now he isn't? It's not like she disowned him in TtH that I recall. In short I think the "obvious" conclusion is that it's Rake, but there's nothing in the book that directly supports it's Rake other than "Fisher thinks Jethiss might be Rake." If anything we're given a lot of reasons to think it's someone else. Jethiss is never recognized as Rake even by characters like the Crimson Guard soldiers who had fought with him, his hair is described as being different from Rake's (streaked instead of pure white), and like I've pointed out from the text Jethiss says things about the "Son of Darkness" title that wouldn't line up neatly if he was Anomander. I think it's silly to get upset with ICE for delivering the "predictable" ending since in my opinion the ending is deliberately ambiguous and goes out of its way not to give a clear answer. The Ninth Layer fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Aug 16, 2014 |
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Aug 16, 2014 02:14
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Spermy Smurf posted:Plus the Malazan universe has a huge boner for Rake. I thought Rake was kind of meh in GotM. Then I read the other books. He's a much deeper character than Erickson first shows us, even though all sorts of Tiste Andii basically scream that fact at the reader. Maybe I'm slow, but I didn't really get the hubbub about Rake until just recently, when I finished TtH.
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Aug 16, 2014 03:13
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The Ninth Layer posted:Fisher never says "Holy crap you're Anomander!" so it's not like there's the natural opportunity for Jethiss to say "No I'm not Anomander." I would need to go read through again but I'm reasonably certain that Rake's name is never even spoken within Jethiss' earshot. Yes, I seem to recall Fisher reasoning that he doesn't want to be too explicit, so all he does is hit around the fact. But I think when he mentions the Son of Darkness, it becomes clear what his suspicions are. quote:Also, how are you explaining away "Mother Dark offered me the title"? quote:If it's Anomander coming back then what changed where he used to be Mother Dark's adopted son but now he isn't? It's not like she disowned him in TtH that I recall. Well, it was Anomander's soul coming back, so he's not the same person. He's in a different body, has a different name, and you could for all intents and purposes you could view it as a voluntary dissociation. As it's implied and/or mentioned both in this book and in the lead up to and finale of the main series, the Andii need to move beyond Rake. And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this note, as I've already noted several things that could be as direct hints as you could get without them being completely explicit, and of course Jethiss wouldn't look like Rake - what would be the point of not being Rake, then? quote:I think it's silly to get upset with ICE for delivering the "predictable" ending since in my opinion the ending is deliberately ambiguous and goes out of its way not to give a clear answer.
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Aug 16, 2014 04:49
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. I thought the implication was clear that Jethiss is a new champion of the Andii with a new sword to defend them. I doubt Rake would feel any desire to get another super-strong sword as he never seemed that keen about being Draginpur's keeper anyway. Thematically his coming back doesn't fit with the rest of Assail which is about the end of a particular era in history. I assumed you were upset about the ending because you've complained about it twice including your previous post.
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Aug 16, 2014 06:38
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The Ninth Layer posted:I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. I thought the implication was clear that Jethiss is a new champion of the Andii with a new sword to defend them. I doubt Rake would feel any desire to get another super-strong sword as he never seemed that keen about being Draginpur's keeper anyway. Thematically his coming back doesn't fit with the rest of Assail which is about the end of a particular era in history. quote:I assumed you were upset about the ending because you've complained about it twice including your previous post. It seems like it's possible to dislike or even complain about something without being upset over it.
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Aug 16, 2014 06:51
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After rereading a bunch of the books, it seems that there's a huge technological disparity between the various city states and the other nations. Much of the Malazan army troops mention that they were from rather primitive cultures like the Dal Hon and Seti. Is there any in universe explanation for why this is? I mean you see guys with crossbows and full plate next to tribes that wear rudimentary bone and leather armor and armed with bone spears.
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Aug 16, 2014 15:15
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amuayse posted:After rereading a bunch of the books, it seems that there's a huge technological disparity between the various city states and the other nations. Much of the Malazan army troops mention that they were from rather primitive cultures like the Dal Hon and Seti. Does there need to be an in universe explanation? In the real world different tribes/empires/societies favour different armour and weapons due to culture, environment, common opponents, tradition, economics and resources. There are people still hunting with spears and bows in Brazil or Africa today when modern military's can field supersonic jet aircraft. Its just... inequality of circumstance.
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Aug 16, 2014 16:38
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amuayse posted:After rereading a bunch of the books, it seems that there's a huge technological disparity between the various city states and the other nations. Much of the Malazan army troops mention that they were from rather primitive cultures like the Dal Hon and Seti. I think you're mixing some people up here. Both countries you mentioned were conquered by the Malazan empire and those are pretty picky about their equipment. For example, the prototypical Seti, Koryk, wears all tribal garb and superstitions, but fights with Malazan weapons. e: I think Rome's the best comparison here. They recruited from various conquered countries and used their units to their respective strengths.
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Aug 16, 2014 20:25
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