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Really Pants posted:It depends on how you have to shut it off, and how often. Stuff like a troll's regeneration is lovely because either the PCs have fire & acid at-wills and can stomp all over it, or they don't have them and can only go WELP and beat their heads against a wall for an hour. On the other hand, my home campaign's DM once had us fight an overleveled solo on a huge cave map with ritual circles scattered around. We had to run around dodging minions and activating the circles in order to make the solo weak enough to actually fight and beat. That was a pretty fun fight. Well that is just not the same thing. You DM used several other mechanics.
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Aug 13, 2014 22:42
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They're getting ready to release an audiobook of D&D stories as narrated by celebrities. A few months ago it was noted Ice-T was doing some work on D&D audiobooks and was completely flabbergasted by it, and I guess this was the project. http://popwatch.ew.com/2014/08/12/ice-t-weird-al-dungeons-dragons/ You've not really lived until you've listened to David Duchovny sleep through an R.A. Salvatore passage.
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Aug 13, 2014 22:48
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I'm not really a fan of in-combat healing at all, among the PCs or among the enemies. It tends to lead to swinginess in combat (since characters have less maximum HP to make up for being able to get chunks back) as well as extending fights - I'm sure everyone's played a fight where the players were sick of the fight and then the enemy has healed back up and everyone groans. There's also the issue where a PC's down to 3 HP and it feels very tense, then they heal back up to 100 HP in a single action from the party healer. Constant regeneration in enemies is the worst though, since it's a pain to write down a new HP number on the badguy every single round as his HP pings up and down. I think I'd prefer characters having a lot of HP, in-combat healing being a great rarity, and with the "healer" role being more of a downtime thing.
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Aug 13, 2014 22:56
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:They're getting ready to release an audiobook of D&D stories as narrated by celebrities. A few months ago it was noted Ice-T was doing some work on D&D audiobooks and was completely flabbergasted by it, and I guess this was the project. "Who should we get to narrate the story of a character that heroically rebels against his evil, dark-skinned race? Oh, Ice-T, obviously."
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Aug 14, 2014 00:53
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Gort posted:I'm not really a fan of in-combat healing at all, among the PCs or among the enemies. It tends to lead to swinginess in combat (since characters have less maximum HP to make up for being able to get chunks back) as well as extending fights - I'm sure everyone's played a fight where the players were sick of the fight and then the enemy has healed back up and everyone groans. There's also the issue where a PC's down to 3 HP and it feels very tense, then they heal back up to 100 HP in a single action from the party healer. D&D 4e is not the game for you, my friend. Regen is pretty irksome, that I'll give you, both as a player and as a DM. The PC healing thing is part of the core design intentions of the game - that PCs should have enough HP and healing to GET to those tense moments and bounce back, basically.
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Aug 14, 2014 01:58
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thespaceinvader posted:D&D 4e is not the game for you, my friend. Yeah it is. I don't need a game to fit all my preferences to enjoy running it. I guess what I mean is that the "tense moments" where characters are low on HP end up so frequent that the current HP of a character doesn't have much to do with whether they're actually in trouble or not - it's their remaining surges and access to ways to spend them that determine that. As a result there isn't much tension in being on 3 HP since even if you go down you can be returned to 25% or more of your total HP in a single action from the party leader. Being on full HP but with no surges/available healing is actually a far more dangerous scenario. Gort fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 11:35
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Gort posted:Yeah it is. I don't need a game to fit all my preferences to enjoy running it. It's supposed to be, that's how 4e was designed to work. I see no real problem with this?
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Aug 14, 2014 15:06
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Gort posted:Yeah it is. I don't need a game to fit all my preferences to enjoy running it. I feel D&D 4e did this tension one better by allowing you to feel it multiple times within a single combat. Even though I have lots of experience DMing and lots of experience seeing PCs recover, it still feels pretty tense to me when I'm down to single-digit HP, even when a leader still has a * Word left. When the leader doesn't, then I'm looking at Second Wind and omg my turn can't come fast enough, please let that monster not recharge its blast . . .
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Aug 14, 2014 16:30
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Yeah, I'm with them. Trying to balance encounters around exactly depleting everyone's surges without accidentally flattening someone is a fool's errand.
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Aug 14, 2014 16:37
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I see cracks forming in the balance when parties are optimised towards having a lot of ways to spend surges in a single combat, however.
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Aug 14, 2014 17:54
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Not really. Most healing is fairly limited (the majority of leaders only get two per encounter) and builds that focus on it like the pacifist healer tend to sacrifice a lot in exchange. Besides, if you are constantly spending surges you'll run out of them sooner or later (a smart DM will extend the adventuring day to compensate) and then no amount of Healing Words will save you. If you have that many heals then you've likely optimised for dragging the fight out over burst damage, so when you can't use that gimmick any more then things will get very hard.
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Aug 14, 2014 18:13
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AXE COP posted:Not really. Most healing is fairly limited (the majority of leaders only get two per encounter) and builds that focus on it like the pacifist healer tend to sacrifice a lot in exchange. Punishing a playstyle through attrition isn't much fun. Plus there are plenty of defender powers that let them spend surges, and on top of that there are magic items that do the same. You don't have to give up much to have a healing-surge-heavy party.
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Aug 14, 2014 18:31
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The limitation for my players is typically running out of ways to spend surges rather than directly running out of surges, though it happens sometimes, especially on lighter strikers or when Comrade's Succor use is running rampant. Picking up more ways to spend surges is, as mentioned, somewhat expensive in terms of opportunity cost, and the more damage/defense/control you give up for heals the more damage you're going to wind up taking. Really, if your group is soundly withstanding the encounters you throw at them with no sense of danger, then crank up the budget.
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Aug 14, 2014 18:40
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Over in the 4e Retrocloning thread, I posted some links and info for the games I worked on. How it deals with surges is basically making them an encounter resource rather than a daily one. Everyone gets 2 or 3 per encounter. You can use them at any time BUT "encounter reserves" also function as your action points. So, you can play aggressively and alpha strike, or you can be more conservative and save them for regaining HP. If that turns anyone's crank, let me know. I am always seeking playtests and other feedback.
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Aug 14, 2014 18:56
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I'm making a Lair Assault style combat for my group for the first time, would like to check if I'm on the right track. I spent the XP budget for a level+5 encounter evenly on three combats, each on its own map, and I'm thinking after each fight I could give them one turn's allotment of actions each (so 1 standard, 1 move, 1 minor) to spend on utility or recovery powers. I was thinking the standard action could be used to spend a healing surge or regain an encounter power - is that too strong? If yes, should I scrap it entirely or switch it around to something like "spend all your actions for 1 HS/1 power" or "standard action to regain a power, but only if you haven't any left"? (They're level 3, so 2 encounter powers each, except the battlemind, who would regain power points.) Positioning on the next map would be free within a tightly limited area, but you could spend the move action to extend your options a little. That one's just a vague idea. Pretty sure I'm overthinking this as it is.
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Aug 14, 2014 19:18
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P.d0t posted:Over in the 4e Retrocloning thread, I posted some links and info for the games I worked on. I'm always interested in stuff that takes the "adventuring day" out of D&D 4e and makes it more of an encounter-by-encounter experience.
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Aug 14, 2014 19:22
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Right, so 4E isn't really designed for that, but the easiest way to steer it over that way is to just forget about healing surges/day. Everyone can always spend a surge (they never run out) and at the end of combat they are healed to full. This is basically what 4E Gamma World does. Then you could restore everyone's dailies when they hit a milestone. This will make fights more difficult and very long in a system where fights are already very long/too long.
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Aug 14, 2014 19:28
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Right, so 4E isn't really designed for that, but the easiest way to steer it over that way is to just forget about healing surges/day. Everyone can always spend a surge (they never run out) and at the end of combat they are healed to full. This is basically what 4E Gamma World does. Does it? I knew it did the "heal to full at end of encounter" but I didn't know you could just spend surges whenever. What kind of action is it to spend a surge in 4e Gamma World? quote:This will make fights more difficult and very long in a system where fights are already very long/too long. How does that follow? Sounds like fights would be easier since all you've done is remove a limitation (surges/day), added a capability (spend surges whenever) and increased the rate of daily recharging. Those are all buffs. Unless you're meaning the monsters can also spend surges whenever they like or something.
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Aug 14, 2014 19:33
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Gort posted:Does it? I knew it did the "heal to full at end of encounter" but I didn't know you could just spend surges whenever. What kind of action is it to spend a surge in 4e Gamma World? Everyone gets a minor action second-wind, and that's it for encounter healing. Some classes have abilities that heal them & stuff but yeah, GW is built around encounters, not the adventuring day.
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Aug 14, 2014 19:37
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I gotta dig out and run Gamma World 4e one of these days. Sounds pretty rad.
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Aug 14, 2014 19:39
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I love Gamma World just for the novelty of the randomly generated characters. "Why yes I am a demon robot, what of it?"
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Aug 14, 2014 19:51
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I loved the genericized weapons, they could be whatever you wanted. I had a player with a Large Ranged weapon (or whetever the actual rule block for it was). He described it as a cannon that shot bazookas that shot guns that shot bullets 
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Aug 14, 2014 20:00
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AXE COP posted:Not really. Most healing is fairly limited (the majority of leaders only get two per encounter) and builds that focus on it like the pacifist healer tend to sacrifice a lot in exchange. *whistles*
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Aug 14, 2014 21:12
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If a power has an effect line that does damage (for example, the rogue power Bloodbath) and I crit with it, does the effect damage also get maximized and get extra crit damage?
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Aug 14, 2014 21:43
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Man someone needs to run Gamma World again. Funnily enough while looking at the WotC forums for D&D 5e I saw someone try and make a Gamma World using its rules. Which is interesting but doesn't have quite the same randomness as the 4e based one.
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Aug 14, 2014 21:52
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I actually had a ton of fun playing a pacifist cleric of Tymora. My class-granted heals were good enough that I could take all of the special-snowflake encounter and daily powers. Cause fear was used to hilarious effect, especially because I was in a party with 5 other melee characters. I feared an ogre off of a cliff, but before he started moving he took 4 opportunity attacks, three of which crit.
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Aug 14, 2014 21:53
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Red Metal posted:If a power has an effect line that does damage (for example, the rogue power Bloodbath) and I crit with it, does the effect damage also get maximized and get extra crit damage? Any regular dice that you'd be rolling as part of the attack get maxed on a critical, yes. This includes Sneak Attack/Warlock's Curse dice, and by that ruling the Effect: roll should definitely be maxed too.
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Aug 14, 2014 22:01
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Au contraire, only the stuff on the hit: line is maxed. If it didn't hit (which Effect: lines don't generally), it can't crit. Sneak attack etc get maxed because they're 'when you hit with an attack, do dice of damage'.
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Aug 15, 2014 00:44
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thespaceinvader posted:Au contraire, only the stuff on the hit: line is maxed. If it didn't hit (which Effect: lines don't generally), it can't crit. Sneak attack etc get maxed because they're 'when you hit with an attack, do dice of damage'. I've never seen it say that only the hit line gets maxed, both the PHB and Rules Compendium just state you maximise all damage dice, minus those specifically granted by the crit.
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Aug 15, 2014 01:12
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Gort posted:I gotta dig out and run Gamma World 4e one of these days. Sounds pretty rad. Dig it out cause 4E D&D keeps seeming like not the game for you.
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Aug 15, 2014 09:43
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Herr Tog posted:Dig it out cause 4E D&D keeps seeming like not the game for you. I love 4e and have been DMing it for two long-running campaigns (one 1-30 and the new one is 1-10 at the moment). It is the best RPG that currently exists. It is not perfect: 1. I couldn't imagine wanting to play it without certain game aids I made myself (power cards being the main one, tokens for marks and other effects being the secondaries) 2. Combat takes too long 3. The "adventuring day" exists, requiring a certain number of encounters per day for the "resource management" aspect of the game to work. Combined with point 2, this is a problem since it means you need quite a time per session spent on combat. 4. Traps got no support outside the original DMG and there isn't much of a way to encounter a trap outside of combat. (EG: A trapped door has a blade on it. The fighter gets hit, takes 30 HP damage, heals it up with a surge, effectively continues on as though nothing happened) I'd have liked to see some out-of-combat traps that debilitate you for a while in ways that aren't just HP damage. 5. Magic items are very well supported and numerous, but very variable in how good they are. There are lots that are only worthwhile if you're one build type of a specific class. On the other hand there are some that just straight-up increase your damage. I would generally have liked to see fewer but more powerful items, with none that give a constant bonus. 6. Many of the books are obsolete due to errata and design changes. I gave my original Monster Manual to a charity shop because it's pretty much worthless compared to Monster Vault. 7. Feats become too numerous as you level. 16 feats by level 30 is too many. I'd prefer them to work like the powers - you spend the heroic tier gaining feats until you have say, five. Then through paragon and epic you gain maybe one or two more, but also get to swap out your existing feats for better ones. 8. Certain classes and builds of classes have more book-keeping than I'd like. One of my players is currently playing an Invoker (the first controller I've seen played, actually) and there seem to be a lot of fiddly penalties to keep track of. I don't really like debuffs in general - like stunning a player character, robbing a monster of the ability to do anything interesting by piling tons of negative modifiers on them seems like the opposite of fun. Monster are there to do their flashy powers and then die, not just die! Just because I'm not a fan of every aspect of the game doesn't mean it's not the best we currently have. That's one of the reasons 5e is such a disappointment to me - I'd have loved to see a 5e that built on 4e and worked on eliminating the flaws as I see them. Unfortunately since we're clearly not getting that, fixing the things I don't like about 4e requires me to house rule stuff, which is why I post in this thread to see what others think of the problems I experienced and how I propose to fix them. Effectively telling me to get out of the edition is not a useful reply. Gort fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Aug 15, 2014 |
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Aug 15, 2014 10:24
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I had a similar problem with the Adventuring Day: combats happened so infrequently that my players could basically take a day to rest between each one. I got around it by changing everything that recovered daily (recovering powers, surges, and AP) to recover after a week spent tending wounds, restocking equipment, and generally recovering. There were still the same number of battles in between the rest periods, so the balance stayed the same, it was just the pacing that changed.
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Aug 15, 2014 10:57
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Gort posted:I love 4e and have been DMing it for two long-running campaigns (one 1-30 and the new one is 1-10 at the moment). It is the best RPG that currently exists. It is not perfect: The problem is that for most of us in this thread, the things you find problematic aren't problems. So finding ways to fix what is not broken, isn't exactly a priority. 1: It's designed around use of minis and battle mat, condition trackers are basically vital. It couldn't be the system it is without them really. I can't imagine trying to play, especially at epic, without them. 2: I enjoy the fights. They do get quite long at times, but a lot of that's down to the players. 3: I like the resource management structure. 4: I'd concur that it doesn't do ongoing conditions very well. The disease style tracks are decent for it but not ideal. 5: definitely agree with this one. Next time I run a campaign it will be with Inherent Bonuses. 6: Also a real issue, but I'm not sure how it's a criticism of the system so much as the lovely writers. 7: I like the character building structure. Lots of feats are fun to fiddle with. 8: Invoker is the class you pick for fiddly poo poo to track? Seriously, if you enjoy playing the game with a massive chunk of house rules, good for you. But there are probably other games which would work better for you without those problems.
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Aug 15, 2014 11:17
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Whybird posted:I had a similar problem with the Adventuring Day: combats happened so infrequently that my players could basically take a day to rest between each one. I got around it by changing everything that recovered daily (recovering powers, surges, and AP) to recover after a week spent tending wounds, restocking equipment, and generally recovering. There were still the same number of battles in between the rest periods, so the balance stayed the same, it was just the pacing that changed. Yeah, I sort-of houserule this myself - long rests happen when the party really wants one (EG: Bob is completely out of surges), or between sessions. thespaceinvader posted:The problem is that for most of us in this thread, the things you find problematic aren't problems. So finding ways to fix what is not broken, isn't exactly a priority. You then go on to agree or partially agree with six out of eight of my complaint list. We share most of the same problems. I'll point-to-point on the stuff you didn't agree with though: quote:2: I enjoy the fights. They do get quite long at times, but a lot of that's down to the players. Yeah, I enjoy the fights too. I love stuff like the defined roles for combat and power sources - you want a wizard defender? Here you go! quote:3: I like the resource management structure. How many fights do your parties tend to go through before a long rest, and how many combats do you tend to have in a single session? quote:7: I like the character building structure. Lots of feats are fun to fiddle with. In the 1-30 campaign I found that a lot of characters ended up with similar feats - extra HP, defense boosters, the accuracy and damage boosters... all that stuff could have been baked into the base characters. I'd sooner have lots of powerful choices to pick from, but I feel like six feats maximum would be a good limit. How many feats do you think a character should have at maximum? Is sixteen the optimal number? Would thirty be better? Is it a case of "the more feats, the better"? quote:8: Invoker is the class you pick for fiddly poo poo to track? So far the classes I've seen played at great length are Fighter, Ranger, Shaman, original Assassin, essentials Thief, Sorcerer, Essentials Warlock, Bard, and Invoker. Invoker seems to have been the fiddliest for me as DM. Assassin looked pretty fiddly to track, but that was mostly troublesome for the player. (and myself on the few occasions I asked "So, how did you get to that damage number?") What classes are more fiddly to track? quote:Seriously, if you enjoy playing the game with a massive chunk of house rules, good for you. But there are probably other games which would work better for you without those problems. I haven't actually implemented any house rules in my game yet. I don't believe in houseruling ongoing campaigns because it's a bit bait-and-switch. Based on what I've said in this thread, what games do you think I should check out? Gort fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Aug 15, 2014 |
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Aug 15, 2014 11:24
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Gort posted:What classes are more fiddly to track? Runepriest. Everything gets a bonus effect line! Which changes based on your stance! And sometimes they both give allies a bonus and enemies a penalty!
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Aug 15, 2014 12:12
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Gort posted:7. Feats become too numerous as you level. 16 feats by level 30 is too many. I'd prefer them to work like the powers - you spend the heroic tier gaining feats until you have say, five. Then through paragon and epic you gain maybe one or two more, but also get to swap out your existing feats for better ones. Feats become less of a problem when you've played/read a ton and can cherry pick the good stuff from the huuuuuge list of junk. A condensed feat list that just has the things people actually use would be great, but otherwise I don't have a huge problem with the way feats work now. That said, I think I'd prefer fewer, more powerful ones. Your last point is sorta at odds with the optimal way for the PCs to fight. I mean I get what you're saying, it sucks when your dragon gets poo poo on because the Psion dropped Dishearten on it 4 rounds in a row while the Ranger and Sorcerer cleaned up the dragon's minions. Or it gets daze-locked and weakened by a Paladin/something that MC'd pally because they had the presence of mind to write "Champion of Order" on their sheet. Or the Wizard polymorphs it and forces failed saves for 2-3 rounds. Team PC has a lot of ways to gently caress over Team Monster, it's just kinda the nature of the beast. Gort posted:Based on what I've said in this thread, what games do you think I should check out? Well Gamma World is the obvious, but you already knew that one. I can't recall if you mentioned Dungeon World in the past; it's pretty different, but as a long-time fan of 4e who actively enjoys all the min-maxy parts of the system, I really really like DW's simplicity & ease of play, games feel much much faster. Also no adventuring day and short lists of "feats" per class. The only thing that I sometimes miss is an initiative system, just to divide up table time more evenly; I've been considering trying popcorn init to see how that plays out. 13th Age is a thing; I've only played 1 short session of it but fighters seemed pretty poo poo. Rogue was cool though. Might be worth peeking at, though while it cuts down on feats & stuff it still assumes an adventuring day. Legend is pcool; short feat list full of good stuff, flexible class/multiclass stuff for people who're into that, strong "normal" class builds for people who aren't, and the adventuring day is basically how far can you go without running out of hp (there's ways to heal, but nothing like 4e surges).
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Aug 15, 2014 12:57
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isndl posted:Runepriest. Definitely go Runepriest if you love doing fiddly poo poo. I love a Serene Word Runepriest|Cleric with Battle Cleric's Lore and the Guardian theme as a leader and pseudo-defender. You get Mighty Hew and Guardian's Counter(I think thats what that ability is called) to act as your catch 22 mechanic. You use word of Exchange to grant a to-hit bonus (By using its Rune of Protection bonus) and Brand of the Sun to at-will grant saving throws. On top of all that you can have battle clerics lore with your serene word bonus meaning you will be getting temporary hit-points whenever someone hits you and a shield bonus to your already decent AC, meaning your are survivable as hell. Also, since you are going Str/Wis with your stats you easily qualify for Superior Will. Now, you don't have to in order to make it effective, but for extra fiddly awesomeness, you can take Hybrid Talent:Rune Master to buy back your Rune States so that now in addition to all the above fiddly nonsense you have access to the Runestates which mean allies will either get +1 to attack enemies adjacent to you or will get some DR, depending on the version of the Runepriest Power you used last. All this makes you essentially a nigh unkillable cleric that can buff his allies while incentivising the enemy to attack you. Oh and Runepriest utility powers are amazing and you can trivialize the game with Protective Scroll and the Comrades Succor Ritual, giving everyone access to as many Minor Action Self-Heals as people are willing to spend in surges. edit-Also, if you have a nice DM you can argue that you never "have" to take a cleric utility power since the cleric's Healing Word is a Cleric Utility power, which meets all the requirements for having a power your parent classes required by Hybrid (You will still need a Cleric At-Will and Encounter, but thats fine). This is good as Runepriest utilities are better than cleric utilities 90% of the time. Madmarker fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Aug 15, 2014 |
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Aug 15, 2014 13:21
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Generic Octopus posted:
This isn't actually true, just letting you know. It uses terms like Dailies, but they're decoupled from actual days. Generally you get everything recharged after four fights.
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Aug 15, 2014 15:31
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Loki_XLII posted:This isn't actually true, just letting you know. It uses terms like Dailies, but they're decoupled from actual days. Generally you get everything recharged after four fights. By "adventuring day" I just meant there are resources to manage over time (like recoveries & spells & stuff). Extended Rests in 4e happen after around 4-6 encounters too. Admittedly 13a comes right out and says "hey, handwave an excuse to give the party a full heal after they've fought a bunch and get back to playing" rather than the "find X hours in the day to get your poo poo back" of 4e, but functionally it seemed pretty similar. Apologies if I misrepresented it, like I said I've barely played it.
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Aug 15, 2014 17:51
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Gort posted:I haven't actually implemented any house rules in my game yet. I don't believe in houseruling ongoing campaigns because it's a bit bait-and-switch. Based on what I've said in this thread, what games do you think I should check out? You might like Strike!, which is in the process of being polished for release by a poster from these forums: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3656713
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