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Lt. Danger posted:What is the black goo?
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Aug 14, 2014 20:15
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Lt. Danger posted:What other sci-fi is referenced by Mass Effect? What other influences did Bioware throw into the pot? All that talk about the rachni and intertextuality, and you didn't mention Ender's Game even once? Well, I suppose the parallels in that case are much more important in ME1 than ME3.
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Aug 14, 2014 20:18
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I've only heard about it second-hand, so if you'd be happy to give a summary that'd be really cool.
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Aug 14, 2014 20:20
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Earth assailed by instectoid aliens, insectoid aliens nuked by genius child strategist, genius child strategist finds last surviving queen, last surviving queen gets hatched on a foreign planet. A lot of terrible writing inbetween.
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Aug 14, 2014 20:40
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I gotta say, the analysis of ME1 being the "Paragon" game and 2 being more "Renegade" does work to a point, even if it kinda undersells the ambiguity in each game a bit. The Genophage especially is a point in ME1 that's brought up constantly, if anything it's an important piece of background in maybe around a fourth of the missions in the game, from Noveria to Virmire to even Wrex's family armor mission. I'd say that, comparatively, 1 is a bit more subtle about it, showing less how it affects the krogan up front and more how it affects the relations the krogan and the rest of the galaxy have. 2 is more blunt, showing the measures the krogan have had to take to survive (either Wrex's unifying and attempt at damage control or Wreav's "gently caress YOURS GOT MINE" behavior) and the entire plot about Mordin's modification and the his own internal struggles. In regard to the setting comments though, I find this is the best way to put it: Mass Effect is to Sci-Fi stories what Gurren Lagann is to mecha anime, one gigantic love letter to the settings that the respective series' creators loved so much. That's why you have moments have a Star Trek or Star Wars or Blade Runner or Aliens feel to them in Mass Effect, because they were made with those things in the developers' minds, while all being made to fit in the series' overall tone. Fandom attitudes towards Mass Effect and TTGL both are kinda funnily comparable, in terms of how some references go over people's heads, leading them to think those things as something made by the series in a vacuum. Which kinda makes this thing that showed up in the Mass Effect anime a tad funny, in retrospect. Also don't watch the Mass Effect anime. Ever. StrifeHira fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 20:44
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The Ender's Game series is a book series about a boy born and raised to be the greatest fleet commander humanity has ever known. His is a story filled with regret, trauma and abuse, so naturally it is by far the author's most famous work. (It actually is quite a good book. Not so great as a movie.) But that's not the relevant part. The rachni are pretty clearly based on the formics, also known derogatorily as buggers. The formics were an insectoid race, with a society centered around queens, also with psychic abilities, including the ability to take over the minds of members of other species remotely - similar to the orbs used by the Leviathans, just without the orbs. They could do it from lightyears away. They were a naturally peaceful species that came into conflict with humanity despite that nature (Though instead of being manipulated into it as in Mass Effect, the formics wiped out a human colony because they didn't understand that every human was an individual life. The formics took the hive mind concept a lot further than the rachni do.) The formics also presented such a formidable military threat that the most desperate measures were called for in beating them back. Peace on Earth was attained because of the threat they posed, but just like with the Krogan rebellions ending an era of cooperation between the species of the galaxy, that peace only lasted for as long as the threat remained. And humanity did defeat them eventually. We even blew up their homeworld, Death Star-style. Here's where things get really familiar. In the end there's only a single queen left, trapped and helpless in an egg found by the main character, (In ME, that would be the capsule connected to the acid tanks) who must make a decision as to whether or not to kill her or let her repopulate her species. The important parallels are in the moral dilemma - finalize a genocide, or risk a future war - and the traits immediately relevant to reproducing that dilemma as it existed in the book. The rachni queen is designed to be sympathetic, but also suspicious, in the same way the formic queen was. The last reproducing member of a species that claims to regret the war that led to them being the last. Seems convenient. It didn't get all that much play in Mass Effect, but this is by far the most weighty choice the game gives you up until the Crucible. Of course, there are several key differences. The rachni would likely not have made the same mistake that the formics did, since the worker rachni are more or less sentient too. The rachni are also a lot more capable in the "communicating with other species" department. Also, I just realized today that "rachni" comes from "arachnid." 
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Aug 14, 2014 21:00
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Also, since this is the last time he'll show up in this LP, I gotta say I'm still really impressed with how much effort went into Grunt's character model. I'd honestly wager to say he's one of the best-designed models in the game, to the point where I'd say he's more "realistic"-looking than most others.
StrifeHira fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 21:04
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Having only done playthroughs with Wrex alive, it's almost fascinating to see just how much of a dick Wreav actually is, and he just. keeps. going.
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Aug 14, 2014 21:07
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I'm more interested in why have a save where Grunt's loyalty mission was not completed (and now we're missing one of the best moments in ME3) and yet Lt. Danger opted to also have Mordin dead in ME2 to get his replacement's super-funny ME3 moment.
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Aug 14, 2014 21:15
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Thwomp posted:I'm more interested in why have a save where Grunt's loyalty mission was not completed (and now we're missing one of the best moments in ME3) and yet Lt. Danger opted to also have Mordin dead in ME2 to get his replacement's super-funny ME3 moment. As someone who only played ME2, I was about to ask that - Grunt made a reference to not going through the initiation rite, is that the only effect it has?
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Aug 14, 2014 21:17
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I tried to read the whole fanfiction thing, but my eyes just glazed over and I started wondering aloud whether these people should have been beaten more by their parents. And I say this as someone who is still willing to write multiple-paragraph posts complaining about Mass Effect two years after the fact. I do actually think the Rachni level is one of the best levels in the game, which is not to say that it's brilliant, but it has a unique design and the enemies have a legitimate reason to be there beyond just the need for there to be something to dismember between yourself and whatever arbitrary thing you're supposed to be doing. The problem comes, as you mention in the video, if you killed the last Rachni in existence in ME1, then the mission plays out exactly the same as it does here. For a game that originally promoted itself on the idea of choice, this is not good, and again it's that question of player agency (I promise to post the words "player agency" at least a dozen more times before the end of this LP). Moreover, the choice you make here ultimately won't matter to the game, other than giving you different allocations of points for your Love-Tester Machine Score Of Death. Remember that in ME2 they deliberately shoehorn in a conversation where the Rachni queen, if you've saved her, talks about "burning the darkness clean", which would have been interesting if they'd ever actually gone anywhere with it. In terms of them doing things as a homage, that's certainly true, although I tend to wonder how much of that is just because sci-fi (especially AAA-title sci-fi) is pretty derivative as a genre. I think you can point to 99% of the content in the game and highlight how it's been done somewhere else before, and while a good chunk of that is a conscious decision on the part of the writers, some of it is likely entirely coincidental. Which really references back to the earlier discussion about how difficult it is to write unique characters in sci-fi and how a lot of it is just variations on broad themes. This as well as the factor that when you make a game like this, and you need it to ship a million copies to not be a failure (or however many the actual break-even was), you again have to frame it in terms of things that a broad audience will immediately understand and be able to interact with, which cuts down a lot of the scope for anything really complex or inventive. FullLeatherJacket fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 21:26
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anilEhilated posted:As someone who only played ME2, I was about to ask that - Grunt made a reference to not going through the initiation rite, is that the only effect it has? Thwomp posted:I'm more interested in why have a save where Grunt's loyalty mission was not completed (and now we're missing one of the best moments in ME3) and yet Lt. Danger opted to also have Mordin dead in ME2 to get his replacement's super-funny ME3 moment. I believe he explained earlier that the point was to show content that people otherwise wouldn't have seen, because they only do playthroughs with more or less perfect survival records. And actually, I could be wrong, but I believe that Grunt's loyalty mission is one of only three that you can actually fail. Fail to gain his loyalty, that is. The other two are Zaeed's and Tali's. I think you can stop midway through, in which case the rite is incomplete.
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Aug 14, 2014 21:28
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On the topic of (aesthetic) intertextuality, I think ME2's Overlord deserves a mention here. The archetypical sci-fi environments, the look and sound of the David/geth construct, the superimposed cyberspace-like graphics after the construct interfaces with Shepard, and finally the spectacle of seeing David crucified on and penetrated by a horrific machine - in visual terms alone, the DLC runs the gamut from classic sci-fi about strange places to more modern horror sci-fi to cyberpunk, both Western and Eastern (i.e. Japanese) in origin. ME3's Leviathan does this very well, also, especially in the final mission. There's a few cutscene shots in there that I absolutely love, because they look for all the world like re-enacted film posters - or at least sci-fi art - from the '80s or early '90s. I'm thinking of these two in particular (SPOILERS, natch): http://i.imgur.com/KQzEqUd.jpg http://i.imgur.com/8Ik17Jt.jpg anilEhilated posted:As someone who only played ME2, I was about to ask that - Grunt made a reference to not going through the initiation rite, is that the only effect it has? Montegoraon posted:And actually, I could be wrong, but I believe that Grunt's loyalty mission is one of only three that you can actually fail. Fail to gain his loyalty, that is. The other two are Zaeed's and Tali's. I think you can stop midway through, in which case the rite is incomplete.
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Aug 14, 2014 21:54
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You can fail Samara's mission as well. Fail to chat up Morinth enough, she'll ditch you, Samara will tell you off for losing her quarry. I think if you don't radio in the target for Thane's mission you fail that one as well.
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Aug 14, 2014 22:18
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You killed Wrex. You killed Mordin. You killed Grunt.
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Aug 15, 2014 01:11
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If you didn't save the Rachni Queen in ME1 this mission has only one good outcome: killing the breeder pod or whatever it's called in replacement of the queen. If you save it here, you screw up the Crucible's construction. Of course that has no real effect on anything so w/e.
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Aug 15, 2014 01:31
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Jesus at this point Lt. Danger's not gonna get to Grissom in time. This is truly the darkest timeline for ME3
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Aug 15, 2014 03:25
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Aces High posted:Jesus at this point Lt. Danger's not gonna get to Grissom in time. No. It's showing why ME3 is a good game. It's good because you can kill all your friends.
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Aug 15, 2014 03:26
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You can fail Grissom Academy?
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Aug 15, 2014 04:36
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Yeah, if you wait too many missions (3?) after getting it before completing it the mission fails. If Jack is alive she becomes a super-Phantom defending TIM.
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Aug 15, 2014 04:41
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Are we gonna see altered scenes for if Grunt died in Mass Effect 2? I know he gets replaced by some Krogan, but I don't really know much else beyond that. Though, without a doubt, his replacement can't live up to Grunt.
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Aug 15, 2014 04:44
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emphasis on the live
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Aug 15, 2014 05:24
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The replacement krogan is a decent guy who gets heart-rendingly ripped to shreds by reapers if you abandon him for the rachni queen. I didn't see Grunt in this mission because I killed him at the end of Mass Effect 2 (he's the only character who gets a decent dying line and someone's Got to die)
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Aug 15, 2014 07:04
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2house2fly posted:The replacement krogan is a decent guy who gets heart-rendingly ripped to shreds by reapers if you abandon him for the rachni queen. I didn't see Grunt in this mission because I killed him at the end of Mass Effect 2 (he's the only character who gets a decent dying line and someone's Got to die) Jack has always been my favorite to die. "No, this wasn't supposed to happen. I wasn't supposed to care." I don't care Jack. I don't loving care. 
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Aug 15, 2014 07:42
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I originally wasn't going to post in this thread...,but something that you said in the video bothered me. When talk about the oddity of people saying the like the mass effect setting. I disagree I think that is completely possible that someone can appreciate the setting for what it is even being refrence based as it is. For example I have actually been left out a lot of the sci-fi references for example I do not enjoy the horror genre and have never seen any of the alien movies, but this has never really negatively contributed to the my enjoyment of the setting. And it is entirely reasonable that one enjoys settings unique spin on how certain cliches and sci-fi elements mingle as they bring their elements to the table. I myself did not strongly dislike the ending as much as most people, and to be honest the two elements that I disliked most of the series were the changes from ME1 to 2 namely the change to an ammo system...which their excuse for felt extremely flat as no self respecting military would trade the supposed advantage of more fire down range for headache of supply lines...not to mention Jacob's loyalty mission and how despite the circumstances of the mission apparently weapons use thermal clips despite there being no nonsensical reason. My other dislike is truthfully a personal preference thing, but it felt like in general a weakening from the first game to the second. You got less powers overall and biotic and weapons felt like the had lowest high points. Not to mention that due to a reworking biotics become really kind of bad on higher difficulties as everything had shields or armor and enemies seems kind of overly durable. As for example I countless times see you do a stealthed headshot on shieldless armorless enemies and they do not die. That is something that has bothered me. A minor note on the note of who lives and dies in ME2. I fully admit I save edited as I could not stand miranda's character...and she was quite difficult to lose on the suicide mission.
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Aug 15, 2014 08:37
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I think everyone who's not a literal jackbooted Nazi should agree that the single most serious issue in Mass Effect 3 is that you can't play as a transgendered or genderqueer Shepard.
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Aug 15, 2014 11:13
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Arglebargle III posted:I think everyone who's not a literal jackbooted Nazi should agree that the single most serious issue in Mass Effect 3 is that you can't play as a transgendered or genderqueer Shepard.
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Aug 15, 2014 11:58
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Watching this last episode is so depressing; Javik keeps being almost interesting\important and then the game goes "Whoops hes DLC can't have him interact with other NPC's too much."
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Aug 15, 2014 12:40
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Arglebargle III posted:You can fail Grissom Academy? Not if you're anywhere near a decent human being.  Jack is one of my favourite characters.
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Aug 15, 2014 14:22
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Neruz posted:Watching this last episode is so depressing; Javik keeps being almost interesting\important and then the game goes "Whoops hes DLC can't have him interact with other NPC's too much." "Who's he?" "Nobody important, forget you ever saw him." It's really frustrating, I agree.
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Aug 15, 2014 14:57
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Javik's mention of the rachni continues to reinforce the motif of the pattern/the cycle which is responsible for a lot of the ills in the galaxy. His interjections are important, if repetitive. Do you really want Shepard to re-explain who Javik is every time we meet someone? The "Who's this?" "Ask me later" exchange is a joke at how ridiculously unlikely and convoluted Javik's existence is, not a literal promise to explain that never gets fulfilled.
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Aug 15, 2014 15:19
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Green Intern posted:"Who's he?" The most absurd part is that Grunt should actually have enough information to put two and two together; Grunt fought the Collectors with Shepard so he knows that the Collectors are what used to be Protheans. Javik shows up and here is this alien species that Grunt has never seen before but he looks kind of like an un-Reaperized Collector... Lt. Danger posted:Do you really want Shepard to re-explain who Javik is every time we meet someone? I just... I really wish that they'd made Javik something other than a Prothean if they were going to make him incapable of interacting with the story. Making Javik both a Prothean and peripheral to the plot is just such a contrary decision.
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Aug 15, 2014 15:23
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Neruz posted:The most absurd part is that Grunt should actually have enough information to put two and two together; Grunt fought the Collectors with Shepard so he knows that the Collectors are what used to be Protheans. Javik shows up and here is this alien species that Grunt has never seen before but he looks kind of like an un-Reaperized Collector... Also, what was the strarship troopers mission you mentioned?
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Aug 15, 2014 17:28
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Covok posted:I mean that is still somewhat of a leap. Considering no one in the galaxy knows what a Prothean looks like and the fact that Prothean are, in some corners of the galaxy, worshipped as gods, it'd be unrealistic for someone to go "Oh, that guy must be Prothean" after just glancing at him. Remember, there are a bunch of alien species that have yet to join the galactic council, like the Yahg, and there is always a chance a new species exists behind an unused relay. Yeah but Grunt does actually know what a Prothean looks like, or rather he knows what a Collector looks like and he knows that the Collectors are Huskified Protheans. If the Protheans\Collectors didn't have such a distinctive head shape with 4 prominent eyes I would agree with you but you only have to take one look at Javik to see that he is exactly the same shape as a Collector. I'm not saying Grunt should take one look at Javik and go "Hey a Prothean!" but he should definitely take one look at Javik and go "Why does that guy look like a Collector?" Your argument holds true for most of the characters we meet, but not characters who were on Shepard's crew in ME2. All of them should be able to (after a few moments of staring at the wierd alien going 'what is that and why does it look so familiar') recognise that Javik is related to the Collectors somehow. But none of that can happen because he is DLC and DLC can't have an actual impact upon the game because ????? Neruz fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Aug 15, 2014 |
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Aug 15, 2014 17:39
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Lt. Danger posted:Javik's mention of the rachni continues to reinforce the motif of the pattern/the cycle which is responsible for a lot of the ills in the galaxy. His interjections are important, if repetitive. Are you referring to the Prothean mono dominant society and (apparent) oppressive/violent regime? Or the act of helping along living weapons as tools only to have them come and bite people in the rear end like the Rachni/Krogan situation?
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Aug 15, 2014 18:08
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Arglebargle III posted:I think everyone who's not a literal jackbooted Nazi should agree that the single most serious issue in Mass Effect 3 is that you can't play as a transgendered or genderqueer Shepard. It does still shock me at times that the only game that lets you play transgendered characters is the Saints Row series, to my knowledge. Neruz posted:Yeah but Grunt does actually know what a Prothean looks like, or rather he knows what a Collector looks like and he knows that the Collectors are Huskified Protheans. If the Protheans\Collectors didn't have such a distinctive head shape with 4 prominent eyes I would agree with you but you only have to take one look at Javik to see that he is exactly the same shape as a Collector. I'm not saying Grunt should take one look at Javik and go "Hey a Prothean!" but he should definitely take one look at Javik and go "Why does that guy look like a Collector?" Well, I will say this to that argument. Later on, a scene is played widely differently if Javik is in the party and gives insight into the history of one of the core races. I believe a few others are as well, but my memory is hazy. I know there are some sidequests that only Javik can do that are fun in a setting sense. But, you are right, Javik is underwhelming at times with how little the game plays up the whole "first prothean in 50,000 years" thing.
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Aug 15, 2014 21:40
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Every time I look at Grunt's face, all I can see are his weirdly pudgy cheeks.
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Aug 15, 2014 22:00
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Covok posted:
I think he meant this one: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/UNC:_Listening_Post_Alpha Referencing this and later on when you enter the mine this. The first two playthroughs of ME1 I didn't even know this sidequest existed. But when I first played through it on my third, it immediately reminded me of Paul Verhoeven.
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Aug 15, 2014 22:16
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I wanted to comment on the idea of Mass Effect being derivative. One of the key features of Mass Effect is that it is an attempt in a game, throughout a trilogy, to have the choice of a player matter. It is an undertaking that takes quite a large amount of planning for all different contingencies, and must figure out how to narrow the scope of those choices while still maintaining a coherent plot. You had mentioned intertextuality as quite a core piece of the Mass Effect universe. Indeed, the entire universe as a whole is taken from bits and pieces of the world around it. But even if it is a wholly derivative piece, that is to take it as the parts as a whole, while the greater sum is something more. The geth and the quarian draw from the very real idea of technology run beyond our control, but there are so many small pieces within the universe that it grows beyond its intertextuality. Without getting into spoilers, there is depth to the Geth that has yet to be explored. There is such a hodge podge of different pieces that, yes, as a whole, the entire universe creates something that is familiar yet new. The cycle has continued, in this iteration of the view of science fiction being this universe. Each race and character has their own motivations and wants and desires and while some of the romance bits feel contrived, they -do- things outside of game that you directly shape. Garrus goes from C-Sec to being the Archangel in Mass Effect 2, to becoming and advisor in Mass Effect 3. And fundamentally they change based on how you shape the story. And that, I think, is the crux of how Mass Effect is excellent in its storytelling, and how Mass Effect 3 in all of its structure is a fantastic conclusion piece. Stories as a whole can be quickly cast as derivative. I am the sum of the tutelage by my education system, my parents, and the people around me. But I have my own story to tell, and I consistently go about it within my dreams, my actions, and how I am perceived and talked about those who I have interacted with. It's most apparent with the bit with Liara much later in the game where she asks how Shephard how you want to be remembered. The game, as a whole, is how the universe reacts to the way you act, to those you interact with, and your decisions and failures as a result. Each player is attempting to tell their -own- story through an entire trilogy, how they want to be treated, and how they want the world to see them. And that, I feel, is hardly a derivative experience. In fact, I would argue by making things similar enough but alien enough, by containing enough intertextuality that there are immediate reactions and sometimes subtle callbacks to experiences that many of have had, the game seriously tries to take on the role as the backdrop, the universe of which the player is the overall creator an interpreter of the overall story. You have a say. The character is a part of you, and you a part of the character. I think the epilogue touches on my point, but that is for later on. And that, I feel, is greater than the sums of the games parts.
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Aug 15, 2014 22:41
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SgtSteel91 posted:I guess this is why I stopped liking Mass Effect. I don't like the Catalyst and the Reapers, I really think they are wrong and abominations and Synthesis, the preferred solution, is wrong too. It's like Shepard can say, "I can't make that choice. I won't." Destroy is the only ending I prefer and will only choose out of the four given the game and players are telling me "nope you made the wrong choice." It just turns me off from engaging with the game and the community. I really believe destroy is the right way to end this and that Shepard's civilization can break the creator/created cycle like it did with the Catalyst's harvest cycle. This is why I never went back to replay Neverwinter Nights: Mask of the Betrayer. The bad guy wins and as far as I'm concerned nothing you do matters. I play the game to be the hero and do massive, world changing heroic things, but here like in MotB you can't do that. Everyone else seems to think the ending to MotB is great and full of hope and suchlike but there's still a giant soulgrinder destroying countless souls you can't do anything about and are just supposed to accept. Waltzing Along posted:
The Dragon Age 2 thread was one of the best threads ever to come from the LP forum, and the only thing better than the posts was the number of people who didn't realise the guy doing it absolutely loathed the game and was taking the piss non stop. Sadly one of those people was a mod who banned the guy. First one of the mods banned the guy for linking to screenshots he'd taken through steam, but he reregged and later the guy doing the thread (I wanna say Snakes N Cakes but I don't think that's right) announced a special event where if people bought him stuff on his steam wishlist he'd include them in the LP. He claimed a random poster bought him CoD and he promptly went back through the thread and pasted the random posters avatar over one of the characters. The poster had no idea what was going on but one of the mods really, really hated the thread and locked it giving the OP a permaban. I remember ban reason in the lepers colon that was basically 'Lets plays are art and also serious business and we do not appreciate your kind here sir good day'. This was a few years ago though, so I might be wrong about a few bit. It's well worth tracking the thread down if you can.
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Aug 15, 2014 22:47
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