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if it helps then "social democracy" effectively means "capitalism borrowing elements of socialism to save itself from its inevitable downfall  "
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Aug 19, 2014 15:34
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many social democrats eventually embraced its elements - the welfare state, the state-enforced collective bargain - as an end in itself rather than as a peaceful means toward 'full' socialism, in any case particularly when under siege from the new left in the 1970s radical democracy was supposed to produce mandates for mass public housing and town planning, not radically alternative ways of living ronya fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 15:53
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So many modified dumb baby avatars, lost, like tears in rain. Lowtax giveth, Lowtax taketh away 
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Aug 19, 2014 16:32
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My favorite political novel is probably Black Rain, a Japanese novel by Ibuse Masuji. It's a really compelling anti-nuke story, mostly for how it combines understatement with an unrelenting account of how individuals and society responded to the bombings.
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Aug 19, 2014 16:44
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ronya posted:many social democrats eventually embraced its elements - the welfare state, the state-enforced collective bargain - as an end in itself rather than as a peaceful means toward 'full' socialism, in any case sure, and this makes sense. however note that the definition i gave gives no indication as to the endgame of the proponents of social democracy - in fact, it was probably inevitable that people raised in that system and model of thinking about economic systems would come to the conclusion that they should be working within the system, no matter the long-term impacts on the working class.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:05
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The SDP - Liberal Alliance led by David Owen and David Sterling was one of the best running jokes on Spitting Image.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:14
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Tony Jowns posted:sure, and this makes sense. however note that the definition i gave gives no indication as to the endgame of the proponents of social democracy - in fact, it was probably inevitable that people raised in that system and model of thinking about economic systems would come to the conclusion that they should be working within the system, no matter the long-term impacts on the working class. yes, what I said in the post you quoted was that many social democrats came to embrace social democracy as the long-term goal in itself, rather than as a way to eventually overturn capitalism not as a concession to working within a doomed system, but as a system in itself to maintain in no small part because many people with their own pet alternatives to capitalism made their alternatives known, I suspect
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Aug 19, 2014 17:15
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ronya posted:many social democrats eventually embraced its elements - the welfare state, the state-enforced collective bargain - as an end in itself rather than as a peaceful means toward 'full' socialism, in any case I find it hard to blame social democrats for giving up on the socialism as an end-goal angle, considering the track record of regimes that realized socialism and communism in the 20th century.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:25
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Randler posted:I find it hard to blame social democrats for giving up on the socialism as an end-goal angle, considering the track record of regimes that realized socialism and communism in the 20th century.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:32
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actually let's shut the gently caress about socialism because i'm just going to get angry and yell at every liberal that waltzes in here with their brainless clichés.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:33
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and this is a nice thread for good times and happiness
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Aug 19, 2014 17:33
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whilst the denunciation of Stalin and the response to the Prague Spring did disillusion many socialists in the 1950s, chronologically I would still pinpoint the discarding of long-term revolutionary ambitions to the 1960s to 1970s
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Aug 19, 2014 17:35
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R. Mute posted:haha, yeah, that's why social democrats gave up on that, yeah, haha. I'm not saying those were their reasons, I merely express acceptance of the end result. 
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Aug 19, 2014 17:37
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ronya posted:whilst the denunciation of Stalin and the response to the Prague Spring did disillusion many socialists in the 1950s, chronologically I would still pinpoint the discarding of long-term revolutionary ambitions to the 1960s to 1970s e: you're right in saying they changed during the 60s and 70s though, but that was a shift to Being Generally Rubbish R. Mute fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 17:38
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Randler posted:I'm not saying those were their reasons, I merely express acceptance of the end result.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:39
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R. Mute posted:eehhhhh, more like around ww1 for most european countries. coincidentally around the time the social democrat parties got into their respective governments. I don't remember if the German social democratic party was involved in their government in 1914 but I do remember my high school history text saying they kinda-sorta condoned the war, which seems like a significant mainstream-ing
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Aug 19, 2014 17:41
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paragon1 posted:Belgians have no rights Belgians have the right to invent EBM, and since they've already done that...
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Aug 19, 2014 17:42
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ronya posted:many social democrats eventually embraced its elements - the welfare state, the state-enforced collective bargain - as an end in itself rather than as a peaceful means toward 'full' socialism, in any case I am disappointed in your lack of dog avatar.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:42
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StandardVC10 posted:I don't remember if the German social democratic party was involved in their government in 1914 but I do remember my high school history text saying they kinda-sorta condoned the war, which seems like a significant mainstream-ing
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Aug 19, 2014 17:44
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R. Mute posted:eehhhhh, more like around ww1 for most european countries. coincidentally around the time the social democrat parties got into their respective governments. ambitious nationalization seems to have remained on government agendas until well into the 50s. in fact I am hard pressed to think of major European non-military nationalizations before the Depression
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Aug 19, 2014 17:44
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Pope Guilty posted:Belgians have the right to invent EBM, and since they've already done that...
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Aug 19, 2014 17:45
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Thanatosian posted:I am disappointed in your lack of dog avatar. I can't even see them, Cloudflare blocks my ISP
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Aug 19, 2014 17:46
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ronya posted:ambitious nationalization seems to have remained on government agendas until well into the 50s. in fact I am hard pressed to think of major European non-military nationalizations before the Depression
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Aug 19, 2014 17:49
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StandardVC10 posted:I don't remember if the German social democratic party was involved in their government in 1914 but I do remember my high school history text saying they kinda-sorta condoned the war, which seems like a significant mainstream-ing I forget if they were in government but the SDP split over the issue of whether to support the war with the USPD splintering off in opposition.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:51
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StandardVC10 posted:I don't remember if the German social democratic party was involved in their government in 1914 but I do remember my high school history text saying they kinda-sorta condoned the war, which seems like a significant mainstream-ing The German Empire of 1914 did not have a party affiliated government in the sense a Westminster-style democracy or the later constitutions of the German state had. The government (as in non-monarch administrative head executive) consisted only of the Reichskanzler, who usually did not even belong to a party. Additionally, Reichskanzler von Bethtman Hollweg did get Reichstag majorities on a case by case basis with different parties backing different measures. If one wants to go for SPD governments screwing the pooch, I'd recommend going a few years forward when the SPD refused to mobilize the Prussian police against the nazis because "violence is bad". 
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Aug 19, 2014 17:52
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R. Mute posted:actually let's shut the gently caress about socialism because i'm just going to get angry and yell at every liberal that waltzes in here with their brainless clichés. don't worry comrade, i still got your back 
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Aug 19, 2014 17:55
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Majorian posted:"No Man's Land." Excellent, but not exactly uplifting. I saw Patrick Stewart's bare feet!
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Aug 19, 2014 17:56
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI0Vf6N5LuY
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Aug 19, 2014 17:56
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUOWg-psY5E
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Aug 19, 2014 17:57
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H-Pqllaapg
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Aug 19, 2014 17:58
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Xylo please ban jrod for abandoning his thread. Or any reason at all really.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:58
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyIUBnOaSXU
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Aug 19, 2014 18:01
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paragon1 posted:Xylo please ban jrod for abandoning his thread. Or any reason at all really. Has he resurfaced elsewhere? I was under the impression he'd done his standard tuck-tail-and-run thing where he stops posting everywhere. Not that I disagree that he should be banned for that or any other convenient reason.
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Aug 19, 2014 18:06
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Aug 19, 2014 18:06
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R. Mute posted:yeah, but like you said, this was more of a goal in itself rather than part of achieving socialism. i'd say the line was kind of blurred before the depression, but afterwards it became part of the keynesian ethos of the thirties and the post-war years, where the ultimate goal was to save capitalism. ... no? Nationalization of key industries and industrial infrastructure was how "collective ownership of the means of production" was generally understood from the 1930s to the 1950s. It was still a goal and it was still being incrementally pushed through. Keynesianism was only embraced as a conscious ideology in the West beginning in the 1950s - the dominant synthesis version was only popularized by Samuelson in 1948 in the US, and slowly spread from there, pushing aside the highly insular debate between the English and Italian academic economists; that's why 'Keynesian' is generally most understood to refer to its American policy school. Prior to this there was generally no conscious macroeconomic framework as we generally understand it today, instead there were many mixes of nationalist, microeconomic, financial, and macroeconomic views synthesized together. Keynesianism is what pushed aside seigniorage and national pride as drivers for a strong dollar/sterling/franc/etc., the sort of thinking de Gaulle was still using to guide French currency policy in the 50s. The switch from competing to have a stronger currency to competing to have a weaker currency marks the point where the ideology shifts.
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Aug 19, 2014 18:06
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hkwtZ29uFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CntId4T8JBg
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Aug 19, 2014 18:07
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Social-democrats' revolutionary spirit (if they ever had one) died with Jean Juares and the Second International in 1914. Jesus guys it was so loving bad Rosa Luxemburg seriously considered suicide. The only major socialist with a plausible reason for supporting the war would probably by RM's countryman Vandervelde, but I'm 99% sure he supported the war before Belgium was invaded, and told the Zimmerwalders to gently caress off so he seems like a bad guy Edit: and, because I've been reading about it lately, reformers thinking they can tame capitalism and let the bourgeoise build wealth and productive power and just quietly let powr go is as retarded as german monarchists thinking they can tame nazis and use them just to get rid of Versailles and suppress communism visceril fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 18:10
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haveblue posted:VALIS is depressing. It's not sci-fi as such but rather the story of a man picking a fight with his own mental illness, briefly winning, and then falling back down. Those are all good books. I really like Flow My Tears, The Policeman Said as well.
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Aug 19, 2014 18:12
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Not enough chemtrails, Jew claws, or ZOG symbols to be dees. Otherwise a good photoshop. How'd you get an image of Buffet water boarding a lady?
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Aug 19, 2014 18:15
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Has he resurfaced elsewhere? I was under the impression he'd done his standard tuck-tail-and-run thing where he stops posting everywhere. Don't know, don't care. The only posts of his outside his own thread that I'm aware of are some posts in the Michael Brown thread saying that what happened in Ferguson could totally be avoided if we privatized the police you guys.
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Aug 19, 2014 18:16
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