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Yeah yeah I wasn't really commenting on you, just using your post as a segue eh?
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Aug 19, 2014 08:38
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Backov posted:This is straight up correct though. quote:"The unfortunate thing is that there are people out there who really hate My problem isn't with the fact that it's an objectively good idea to take every precaution possible short of not riding a motorcycle at all in view of the fact that many drivers are malicious idiots, but with the idea that it's our fault if we get hosed up by someone else's stupidity. This fucker was straight-up victim-blaming motorcyclists for falling prey to arsehole drivers. It's the idea of assuming moral culpability for your own injury if you didn't take every conceivable precaution that gets me. It really is the same as "well you shouldn't have been walking alone at night if you didn't want to get mugged."
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Aug 19, 2014 09:07
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Well if you didn't want to get hit by a car you shouldn't have dressed like someone who wanted to get hit by a car.
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Aug 19, 2014 10:50
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Snowdens Secret posted:Perhaps you should knock it off with them negative waves, dig how beautiful it is around you, and be a bit more righteous and hopeful for a change??  Me IRL when someone pulls a stupid-rear end move in traffic.
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Aug 19, 2014 10:59
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Smudgie Buggler posted:My problem isn't with the fact that it's an objectively good idea to take every precaution possible short of not riding a motorcycle at all in view of the fact that many drivers are malicious idiots, but with the idea that it's our fault if we get hosed up by someone else's stupidity. This fucker was straight-up victim-blaming motorcyclists for falling prey to arsehole drivers. It's the idea of assuming moral culpability for your own injury if you didn't take every conceivable precaution that gets me. It really is the same as "well you shouldn't have been walking alone at night if you didn't want to get mugged." No, that is a stupid comparison. You choose to take a risk and get on that bike, women don't choose to be women. And have fun with that moral superiority when you have a crushed leg and the driver's door got a new parking lot ding. With motorcycling, it's either your fault for loving up or your fault for being there when somebody else fucks up.
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Aug 19, 2014 15:40
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So if I get mugged it's my fault for being where I was when the mugger decided to mug? I ain't saying it's a good idea to ride around without a care in the world not giving a gently caress about your own safety relative to the actions of others. You can't do that and expect to live. But the idea that it's your fault if someone suddenly plows into your lane and collects you is simply ludicrous. You can't be omniprescient, and just because it might have been theoretically possible for you to have reacted more quickly doesn't shift the moral blame for the crash onto you. That's laughable. The vulnerable aren't very smart if they don't acknowledge and adjust to their vulnerability, but they're not morally culpable for damage amplified by that vulnerability caused by the negligence or malevolence of others. I just don't get this kind of thinking. Like, have you never heard of a tort or something? Smudgie Buggler fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 17:22
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Backov posted:Well sure, they don't literally want to kill you. It's just a good idea to behave like they do. Nah, there's no need to be that aggressive about it. I think it's better to behave like they literally can't see you. Act like your position on the road is seen by other vehicles as an open space that they think they can cram themselves into.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:38
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They way I've always operated is to assume that everyone is drunk, high, blind, sexting and getting road head while actively trying to kill you. It's kept me alive thus far.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:40
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Akion posted:everyone is drunk, high, blind, sexting and getting road head while actively trying to kill you. that is what they taught us to do in driver's ed so i thought it was ok <edit> cool i got an avatar somehow <edit2> drat it is just a replacement for "stupid newbie" which was way better apatite fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 17:42
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Smudgie Buggler posted:So if I get mugged it's my fault for being where I was when the mugger decided to mug? Have fun with that lawsuit when you still can't walk and the driver is uninjured. The lesson your instructor is teaching is to actively avoid being in a position where somebody even can plow into you. That is something you can have control over for the most part. You are better off absorbing your instructor's message than dwelling on every  incorrect thing he says.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:50
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I was going to say that being morally in the right isn't much of a comfort when you're paralysed from the waist down/have no face/have no skin. Assume people are trying to kill you. Yes, life is complex and responsibility is a multifaceted thing and not everything is black and white. Moral culpability has nothing to do with it. The goal is to avoid being hit. A helpful mental tool for avoiding being hit is to assume everyone is trying to hit you and act accordingly. Most of the time when someone else is 'at fault' it's still the rider's fault. Watch the crash compilations on youtube. There are hundreds where people pull out/change lanes/whatever into the rider. Yes they're at fault. But 90% of the time, the rider could have done something to avoid being hit. I'm not meaning superhuman, ninja-like reflexes, I'm meaning things like road position and relative speed and predicting the flow of traffic.
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Aug 19, 2014 19:51
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See, you guys don't understand how good it feels to be morally right. You can have your walking and your legs and your sex with the ladies.
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Aug 19, 2014 19:57
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I still think that telling people "act like they're out to kill you" is stupid. If all the car drivers on the road were actually out to kill me, I would not leave my house. Or I'd buy a humvee with a machine gun or something. Very few people are actually going to be aggressively bad and try to run you off the road or door you or whatever. No, treat it like the drivers cannot see you at all, which is close to the truth. See the car poking his nose out of the driveway? He doesn't see you and he thinks the street is clear, so be ready for him to pull out and cut you off at any time. The person beside you on the highway? Yeah, she thinks the space beside her is empty and she could merge into it whenever, so get out of that space. Etc. This attitude doesn't make you hostile towards or terrified of cars, but it does encourage you to never rely on anyone else's behavior for your safety. "Ride like you're invisible and not invincible" is what an old guy told me when I got into riding. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 21:06
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Sagebrush posted:"Ride like you're invisible and not invincible" is what an old guy told me when I got into riding. I ride like I'm invisible and invincible so I think that officially makes me a superhero (villain).
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Aug 19, 2014 23:08
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Sagebrush posted:I still think that telling people "act like they're out to kill you" is stupid. If all the car drivers on the road were actually out to kill me, I would not leave my house. Or I'd buy a humvee with a machine gun or something. Very few people are actually going to be aggressively bad and try to run you off the road or door you or whatever. While I think that's still nit picking the context of the lesson, you get it. Moral high ground this and civil suit that just distracts from the practical application of "don't even be there when somebody fucks up". I mean is winning a lawsuit going to mean much when half of you is smeared across main street?
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Aug 19, 2014 23:20
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Sagebrush posted:I still think that telling people "act like they're out to kill you" is stupid. If all the car drivers on the road were actually out to kill me, I would not leave my house. Or I'd buy a humvee with a machine gun or something. Very few people are actually going to be aggressively bad and try to run you off the road or door you or whatever. I agree with all of this and still dislike victim-blaming in all its forms 
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Aug 20, 2014 05:27
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Smudgie Buggler posted:I agree with all of this and still dislike victim-blaming in all its forms Failure to ride defensively doesn't make you a victim, it makes you a co-conspirator.
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Aug 20, 2014 05:42
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Yeah dude it's just about riding attitude and not putting yourself in harms way. Riders don't need you pulling some SJW poo poo defending them at all costs from the oppressive at-fault driver. If anyone is saying it's their fault it's not in the sense that they caused it. It's in the sense that they had the ability to avoid it but did not, even though they might have been riding 100% legally. You're acting like people are blaming the rider for an unavoidable accident.
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Aug 20, 2014 05:47
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nsaP posted:Yeah dude it's just about riding attitude and not putting yourself in harms way. Riders don't need you pulling some SJW poo poo defending them at all costs from the oppressive at-fault driver. It would still feel pretty good to drag one or two of those intentional-swerve rat fucks out of their car though.
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Aug 20, 2014 05:50
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After a dude tried to run me off the road for filtering to the front of a red light I posted on here asking about attaching mace or a ASP to the bike. I didn't do either, but I get it.
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Aug 20, 2014 05:56
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nsaP posted:You're acting like people are blaming the rider for an unavoidable accident. Nobody here, absolutely not. But people do this all the loving time.
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Aug 20, 2014 06:04
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Well congrats on reaching none of them with your message, in true SJW fashion.
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Aug 20, 2014 06:06
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After quite some years commuting on bicycles and motorbikes, I have distilled my two-wheel safety philosophy down to: "Ride like you are invisible, and everyone else is playing a game of splat the invisible cyclist" They forget about the game sometimes, but every now and then someone thinks "hmm, I wonder if there's a bike beside me, better veer into this lane and see".
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Aug 20, 2014 12:24
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nsaP posted:Well congrats on reaching none of them with your message, in true SJW fashion. The thread's called the echo chamber/padded room... Congrats on defending the smug ramblings of a senile victim-blaming halfwit 
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Aug 20, 2014 17:17
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gently caress these stupid Honda cheese-soft carb boot bolts, and gently caress me for not replacing them earlier. I rounded one off last night and of course it's the hardest one to get to. 
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Aug 20, 2014 17:25
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Smudgie Buggler posted:The thread's called the echo chamber/padded room... Congrats on defending the smug ramblings of a senile victim-blaming halfwit Maybe if the guy teaching the riding class and all of the people who have been riding for years think one way and you think a different way, you might be wrong. Besides the rear-brake thing what the guy said wasn't crazy, and I'm kinda thinking you mis-understood him on that. I mean you were getting upset at wrong pronunciation.
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Aug 20, 2014 17:54
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Smudgie Buggler posted:The thread's called the echo chamber/padded room... Congrats on defending the smug ramblings of a senile victim-blaming halfwit Are you still not getting it? If you get hit by somebody, then there's a better place on the road you could have been to avoid being hit. You are hard to see on a motorcycle. Even if it's their fault, it's your fault for being where they didn't notice you, and you are complicit. Easy peasy. You can use all the weak crime parallels all you want, but you actually do have a reasonable expectation of not being the victim of violent injury off of a motorcycle. On a motorcycle, different story, you have to own the situation all the time. If you think civil or even criminal penalties are going to prevent people from running you over, you are already as good as dead.
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Aug 20, 2014 18:06
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clutchpuck posted:Are you still not getting it? If you get hit by somebody, then there's a better place on the road you could have been to avoid being hit. You are hard to see on a motorcycle. Even if it's their fault, it's your fault for being where they didn't notice you, and you are complicit. Easy peasy. You can use all the weak crime parallels all you want, but you actually do have a reasonable expectation of not being the victim of violent injury off of a motorcycle. On a motorcycle, different story, you have to own the situation all the time. If you think civil or even criminal penalties are going to prevent people from running you over, you are already as good as dead. So, I'm sitting at a stoplight in the middle of the night, and a drunk guy comes barreling out of the bar right next to the intersection and turns me into a pancake. Other than "Not on the road", where could I have been to avoid this situation?
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Aug 20, 2014 18:21
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Aug 20, 2014 18:23
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Akion posted:So, I'm sitting at a stoplight in the middle of the night, and a drunk guy comes barreling out of the bar right next to the intersection and turns me into a pancake. While sitting at the stoplight, you are constantly aware of all the places that cars could be coming from -- behind you in your lane, in front of you in the opposite lane, to the left and right at the intersection, and any nearby driveways that lead into the road, eg. the bar. You also realize that "it's the middle of then night and that is a bar beside me, so I should be extra attentive around here." Then, when the guy comes lurching out, your sixth sense tells you that he's about to do something idiotic, and you prepare to get out of his way. Maybe while you were sitting there idling you heard tires screeching and a car scraping on the pavement so you knew there was someone driving really dangerously nearby, and you started looking for him. Nothing is guaranteed to save you every time from every situation, but I've lost track of the number of times I've been riding along and seen an occluded driveway and felt, without even really consciously thinking it, "that's spooky", and I move over in the lane a bit and as I pass it yep there's a car that slams on its brakes as it was about to pull out in front of me. Or been on the interstate and noticed a car just acting subtly weird in some way, like not moving quite with the other traffic or steering late or something, so I backed off to let them get ahead, and ten seconds later YEP they shoot across three lanes without signaling. The sixth sense you get for potential danger really is a thing and you really do just have to be, as z3n says, constantly vigilant. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Aug 20, 2014 |
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Aug 20, 2014 18:53
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Sagebrush posted:While sitting at the stoplight, you are constantly aware of all the places that cars could be coming from -- behind you in your lane, in front of you in the opposite lane, to the left and right at the intersection, and any nearby driveways that lead into the road, eg. the bar. You also realize that "it's the middle of then night and that is a bar beside me, so I should be extra attentive around here." Then, when the guy comes lurching out, your sixth sense tells you that he's about to do something idiotic, and you prepare to get out of his way. And then what? Ride into the intersection? If I panicked every time someone came up a little too fast behind me at a stop, my rides would be one long evasive maneuver. Also apparently never ride anywhere where you haven't done extensive, rote memorization of bars, restaurants, and anywhere that has a liquor license.
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Aug 20, 2014 18:59
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Radbot posted:And then what? Ride into the intersection? If I panicked every time someone came up a little too fast behind me at a stop, my rides would be one long evasive maneuver. Who the hell knows -- the guy posed an incomplete question about a dumb situation. If you're aware of the guy being an idiot, you should be automatically thinking how to get away from him. Maybe that's through the intersection (it's empty, it's the middle of the night) or maybe it's off to one side or who cares this is a stupid hypothetical situation. The point is that it doesn't matter whether it's "fair" or "right" that you have to be more attentive and more responsible on the road than other drivers, because that's the way it is. If you don't accept it, and think "well they're supposed to notice me here so I will just act as if they do" and you get in an accident you will be the one who loses. Seriously some of you sound like me when I was eight years old and fighting with my younger sister. "But it's not fair, she started it, it's her fault!" Dad: "Yes, and you are older, and you're a man, so you will always have to deal with it and let her do what she's going to do instead of fighting back. Sorry, that's how this works and you don't have a choice." e: and don't be dense, you don't have to know the locations of every bar in town, but if you see something that looks like a bar in the middle of the night, you can certainly be aware that there could be extra-bad drivers around it. I also slow down and pay more attention around shopping malls, high schools, etc. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Aug 20, 2014 |
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Aug 20, 2014 19:11
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Smudgie Buggler posted:The thread's called the echo chamber/padded room... Congrats on defending the smug ramblings of a senile victim-blaming halfwit 
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Aug 20, 2014 19:14
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Akion posted:So, I'm sitting at a stoplight in the middle of the night, and a drunk guy comes barreling out of the bar right next to the intersection and turns me into a pancake. Not on the motorcycle in the middle of the night is where I would be. I've posted before that I avoid riding in the dark. But you could add "not on roads where there are bars" to the mix.
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Aug 20, 2014 19:17
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clutchpuck posted:Not on the motorcycle in the middle of the night is where I would be. I've posted before that I avoid riding in the dark. But you could add "not on roads where there are bars" to the mix. Dude, stop victim blaming. A motorcyclist has every right to drive alongside drunk people in the middle of the night :ralp:
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Aug 20, 2014 19:21
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This whole discussion is ridiculous and suggesting not riding on roads with bars would mean I couldnt leave my driveway in Wisconsin. Be aware. Look around you. Drive defensively. Be prepared to get out of the way. Thats it.
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Aug 20, 2014 19:22
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I don't think it's agreeing with the idiotic "b-b-but we're victim-blaming!" viewpoint to be a bit skeptical about it being 100% your fault for being hit while stopped at a stoplight even after taking measures to move to the side of the lane and keep an eye on your mirrors. Instead, I think it's a lot more honest and effective to say 100% of accidents are avoidable as a motorcyclist - 99% are avoidable while you're riding, 1% are avoidable by never riding. The only way to ensure you're never in an accident is not to ride.
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Aug 20, 2014 19:35
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If you can do something to avoid being involved in an accident as a motorcyclist, you should. Even if that thing is illegal. There, everyone happy?
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Aug 20, 2014 19:37
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[EDIT] Nevermind. It's not worth it. Arguing on the internet is dumb. [/EDIT] Akion fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Aug 20, 2014 |
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Aug 20, 2014 19:51
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Oh my god shut the gently caress up My rant: the dumb slapfights this forum keeps getting into
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Aug 20, 2014 19:54
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