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CNN show video of cop who pointed rifle against protesters. On the video a white shirted (supervisor in most american fire and police systems) cop walks toward him and pushes him away. Officer has been suspended indefinitely. So, good on the county supervisor for dragging the St Ann officer away and good on St Ann to suspending him.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:32
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I assume cops get everything for free in the States. I mean come on those dudes get the best defense money can buy just for being a cop.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:32
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Pohl posted:Ah, so you can try and shoot a guy in the leg to incapacitate him, and hope he doesn't die; or you can just shoot him a dozen times in the torso and head because if you are going to shoot someone, you might as well kill them. Or, Ghasp! Taser the piece of human chaff (:sarcasm: - seriously, why don't we have a sarcasm emote??) In short, Thank you.  Full disclosure: I worked in a 24hr pharmacy in AZ and *ALWAYS HATED* calling the cops when I absolutely had to (though it was quite often.) They could be such incredible DICKS. It sticks with me even though I was always on the "good" side, and I'm long past that unpleasant time...
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Aug 21, 2014 03:33
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Agrajag posted:I assume cops get everything for free in the States. I mean come on those dudes get the best defense money can buy just for being a cop. Goal is to have good defence for all of working class people. It is unfair here in america, but solution is not to take theirs away but to give it to the remaining professions. My militant marxism makes sure that I remind of worker's protection for cops, too. This should not protect from malicious action, of course.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:34
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Vahakyla posted:CNN show video of cop who pointed rifle against protesters. On the video a white shirted (supervisor in most american fire and police systems) cop walks toward him and pushes him away. Cop threatens to kill white people, is immediately fired. Cop murders black person, "Oh well maybe he was a thug lol"
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Aug 21, 2014 03:34
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Shady Amish Terror posted:In most places in the US, it shouldn't even be expected that the use of deadly force is even necessary, and consolidating fire teams (where you can afford to train them more effectively) and separating them from beat cops (who shouldn't need a gun, specifically, at all times), would make sense, if not for the fact that the entire system is hosed up and tons of people would resist that change, including many or most law enforcement agencies themselves.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:35
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KernelSlanders posted:That's fine, but I think you're describing the status quo. I doubt a cop would get in trouble for hitting someone in the leg (or missing entirely) if they had justification to shoot to kill. My point is, officers should not be permitted to shoot unless, under the circumstances, they are permitted to kill. Part of this is that in my head, there's no real distinction between limb shots and center mass shots. I see the relevant escalation not as to 'killing' but as to 'inflicting immediate massive damage.' It's not like if I put 5 rounds center mass and, whoops, he's still breathing, I'd saunter up and put two into his head. Killing's a side effect of what you're actually doing: Immediate massive damage to stop a body. You need to stop that body from what it's doing, not kill, per se. The killing is incidental to the functioning of the tool, and the standards for lethality seem to be about when it's acceptable to accept that incidental outcome. That's how it playing in my head.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:38
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Every cop carrying a gun is not a bad idea. Unarmed british police are in the vast majority and those countries where every cop carries a firearm do not go rampantly shooting black people without punishment. A lethal weapon is a great tool for a law enforcer and the threat of it itself is enough to resolve many violent situations. Every enforcer having it is a good idea, but the training and tactics should change. And as violent and armed as crime can be in america, police would definitely be hampered by the lack of firearms.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:38
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Shady Amish Terror posted:In most places in the US, it shouldn't even be expected that the use of deadly force is even necessary, and consolidating fire teams (where you can afford to train them more effectively) and separating them from beat cops (who shouldn't need a gun, specifically, at all times), would make sense, if not for the fact that the entire system is hosed up and tons of people would resist that change, including many or most law enforcement agencies themselves. I once had an uncle (lifetime NRA member) argue that this only worked in Britain because they banned guns there. He wasn't too happy when I said "but wait Jim I thought you said 'if we ban guns only the criminals will have guns'... so where are the criminals' guns?"
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Aug 21, 2014 03:39
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Is having a gun in a locked safe in the police car a compromise that has been considered? Er...what am I even talking about? This is America, who on earth would they be compromising with?
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Aug 21, 2014 03:40
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KernelSlanders posted:For some reason we like under-training our police in this country. That costs tax money, can't do that.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:41
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Samurai Sanders posted:Is having a gun in a locked safe in the police car a compromise that has been considered? Norway and Iceland do this in some cases, as does Great Britain. In Great Britain, some of those are opened from the station, in Norway and Iceland it is officer discretion and sometimes you carry them with you, for example to lunch or other similar places where going to the car might not be ideal. Some bigger city districts carry on the belt, some don't. Farthest away a pistol for an officer is in the cruiser in any case. British police are the only police force where majority of cops are not firearm qualified or allowed to touch one. Even they have exceptions, such as norrth ireland where they are required to carry even off duty. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Aug 21, 2014 |
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Aug 21, 2014 03:42
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Accretionist posted:It's not like if I put 5 rounds center mass and, whoops, he's still breathing, I'd saunter up and put two into his head.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:43
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:That costs tax money and only has a potentially positive impact for blacks, can't do that. Fixed that for you.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:44
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Bhaal posted:It's not even the limb shot. If you feel you need to aim for center mass, fine. Shoot for center of mass if the situation gives you no other options. But how many shots would any of us take before being dead or incapacitated? They loving unloaded on him. As people mentioned after he collapsed to the ground they kept on plugging away at his ragdoll corpse from ~15 feet away. Just their stance and gun angle alone were pretty sickening. Uh, what? I watched the drat video, the guy was roughly 6-7 feet from the vehicle (right at the other edge of the sidewalk, there is no loving way a sidewalk is 15 feet wide) when they opened fire. He was 15 feet away from them when he jumped up on the retaining wall and started moving toward them with the knife in his hand and them telling him about 5 or 6 times to "drop the knife". Also, they were obviously intending to kill him ("neutralize" if we want to dehumanize it a bit) since they were using lethal force, so why the gently caress does it matter how many shots they fired (5-6 each, do you know how quickly you can get off 5 shots on a handgun when someone's about to kill you?) unless you're just looking for things to point out and say "BOO POLICE". Samurai Sanders posted:Is having a gun in a locked safe in the police car a compromise that has been considered? That is a terrible compromise. What happens when the officer is outside of their vehicle and someone pulls a gun? "Can you hold on please, I need to get the gun out of the safe in my car."
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Aug 21, 2014 03:45
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SirKibbles posted:Fixed that for you, the issue is race when we get down to it.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:48
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Cenodoxus posted:Uh, what? I watched the drat video, the guy was roughly 6-7 feet from the vehicle (right at the other edge of the sidewalk, there is no loving way a sidewalk is 15 feet wide) when they opened fire. He was 15 feet away from them when he jumped up on the retaining wall and started moving toward them with the knife in his hand and them telling him about 5 or 6 times to "drop the knife". What about these swedish cops, who from a SIMILAR DISTANCE, against a suspect of a murder case, armed with a visible knife, had time to do a double warning shot [warning shots towards a safe surface are considered less-lethal in the Nordic and Central Europe], and then take limb shots, leaving the perp alive and no one else injured? http://www.expressen.se/gt/polismannen-darfor-skot-jag-mordaren/ EDIT: I linked the wrong video from the tabs, the man dies in this one. In this video, the warning shots and the limb shots were deemed justified but the officer was indicted for manslaughter because by the final, fifth, shot, that was fired after the limb shots, on the basis of not waiting for the effect of limb shots. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Aug 21, 2014 |
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Aug 21, 2014 03:50
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Not really. Rich white people won't even pay for cops in rich white neighborhoods. Wrong, why would you even say this.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:51
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Point taken on the firearms (though I really think options where there's better odds the other person lives, like tasing, should be more rigorously trained on), but again, for most law enforcement officers it shouldn't be considered normal to use lethal force, and it should be better trained for, which of course isn't happening and it's hard to say how to make sure it does happen.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:51
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Cenodoxus posted:Also, they were obviously intending to kill him Ya loving think? That's the problem - the moment the police got out of the car the die was cast. That's not how it should work. quote:That is a terrible compromise. What happens when the officer is outside of their vehicle and someone pulls a gun? "Can you hold on please, I need to get the gun out of the safe in my car." The point isn't that the gun is locked up the entire time you're on your shift until the moment you need it. Some situations will dictate the need for a gun. But by keeping it locked away more the police will have to figure out how to keep the peace without filling people with holes.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:52
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Cenodoxus posted:Also, they were obviously intending to kill him ("neutralize" if we want to dehumanize it a bit) since they were using lethal force, so why the gently caress does it matter how many shots they fired (5-6 each, do you know how quickly you can get off 5 shots on a handgun?) unless you're just looking for things to point out and say "BOO POLICE". Neutralize != kill. Holy gently caress "Also, they were obviously intending to kill him" - Yeah, and cops intent on killing should face the law as murderers, hth BOO THOSE POLICE
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Aug 21, 2014 03:52
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Neo Duckberg posted:Wrong, why would you even say this.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:53
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Vahakyla posted:What about these swedish cops, who from a SIMILAR DISTANCE, against a suspect of a murder case, armed with a visible knife, had time to do a double warning shot [warning shots towards a safe surface are considered less-lethal in the Nordic and Central Europe], and then take limb shots, leaving the perp alive and no one else injured? The man in this dies and the cop was being charged with manslaughter so its not exactly the best example for your argument here.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:54
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Because it's my experience? The rich towns around me that are basically nothing but old white retirees consistently short the gently caress out of every city service and have to get bailed out by the county. Most of them don't even have police departments because they refuse to pay for them. So that's your experience. But I want to see the evidence to support that statement applying nationwide, because it definitely doesn't apply here.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:55
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Johnny Cache Hit posted:The point isn't that the gun is locked up the entire time you're on your shift until the moment you need it. Some situations will dictate the need for a gun. But by keeping it locked away more the police will have to figure out how to keep the peace without filling people with holes.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:57
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Are there any decent livestreams up tonight?
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Aug 21, 2014 03:57
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Rap Record Hoarder posted:Are there any decent livestreams up tonight? Nobody is here because nothing is going to happen anymore.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:58
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Accretionist posted:Part of this is that in my head, there's no real distinction between limb shots and center mass shots. I see the relevant escalation not as to 'killing' but as to 'inflicting immediate massive damage.' It's not like if I put 5 rounds center mass and, whoops, he's still breathing, I'd saunter up and put two into his head. Killing's a side effect of what you're actually doing: Immediate massive damage to stop a body. You need to stop that body from what it's doing, not kill, per se. The killing is incidental to the functioning of the tool, and the standards for lethality seem to be about when it's acceptable to accept that incidental outcome. That's how it playing in my head. I think we agree insofar as that's the philosophical reasoning behind what the policy should be.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:58
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zen death robot posted:I feel worse for the family of the dead 18 year olds. Well, _yeah_. We've all been feeling bad for them. I just hadn't bothered to consider Wilson's family.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:58
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Yankee go home
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Aug 21, 2014 03:59
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Lawrence O'Donnell on MSNBC ripping apart a NY Times article about the shooting. Specifically where they write that Wilson walked briskly while firing shots at a fleeing Mike Brown and saying that events AFTER that will be crucial to the case.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:59
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Any idea what Holder said to Brown's family when he met with them?
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Aug 21, 2014 03:59
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WoodrowSkillson posted:The man in this dies and the cop was being charged with manslaughter so its not exactly the best example for your argument here. poo poo, I linked the wrong video. I had plenty of pages open. In this video, the warning shots and the limb shots were deemed justified but his indictment for manslaughter was caused by the final, fifth, shot, that was fired after the limb shot, on the basis of not waiting for the effect of limb shots. Let me find find the video I did mean, though.
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Aug 21, 2014 03:59
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MariusLecter posted:Lawrence O'Donnell on MSNBC ripping apart a NY Times article about the shooting. Haha, yeah. Can we just quote this forever to the shitheads justifying the shooting:
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Aug 21, 2014 04:01
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Neo Duckberg posted:Nobody is here because nothing is going to happen anymore. It's gonna be really depressing when the newspapers break out the big font for PEACE IN FERGUSON
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Aug 21, 2014 04:01
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/20/police-officer-suspended-for-pointing-rifle-at-protesters-threatening-them/ Has this been posted? quote:A police officer who pointed an assault rifle at people in Ferguson on Tuesday night and threatened to kill them has been relieved of duty and suspended indefinitely, authorities said.
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Aug 21, 2014 04:01
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Koalas March posted:Yeah, ironically if he hadn't turned to surrender he might have lived a little longer Just wait for the protests when they charge the friend with felony murder.
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Aug 21, 2014 04:05
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Sir Tonk posted:http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/20/police-officer-suspended-for-pointing-rifle-at-protesters-threatening-them/ Yeah, even better that he was removed immediately by a police supervisor who pushed him away.
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Aug 21, 2014 04:06
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Anyone remember that post where someone had three paragraphs like, "When police killed [high profile case victim], they claimed [extenuating circumstances]. It was later reported [damning version of events]," punctuated with something like, "Initial police statements about shootings are worthless." I'm trying to find it. Was it this thread?
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Aug 21, 2014 04:06
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Shady Amish Terror posted:Point taken on the firearms (though I really think options where there's better odds the other person lives, like tasing, should be more rigorously trained on), but again, for most law enforcement officers it shouldn't be considered normal to use lethal force, and it should be better trained for, which of course isn't happening and it's hard to say how to make sure it does happen. If you have a gun or a knife and don't put it down when the cops tell you, they are going to shoot the gently caress out of you. Everyone in America knows that.
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Aug 21, 2014 04:06
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