google: dad I hate myself and this phone is garbage

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > google: dad I hate myself and this phone is garbage

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BennyGsGhost: Jun 27, 2002; Low P/B or Bust; Pillbug

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

i initially called you an idiot and banged post. i felt bad, so here comes an effort post.

targeting is extremely valuable on television. if i want to sell a minivan to mid-40s soccer moms, i have no way to tell which ones are looking to buy a car. i do know how to reach every mid-40s soccer mom in the tri-state area: buy air time on shows that match the demographic.

i won't precisely hit the people thinking of buying my minivan, but i will hit everyone who might ever want a minivan, regardless of whether they want a minivan right now. and i'll hit them with a 30 second spot that takes up 100% of the television, has full motion video, blaring sound, and potential to entertain.

search advertising doesn't offer that level of intrusion on the user. but it cuts out all the crap about demographics. it doesn't have the same potential to engage, but it offers the ultimate targeting: i hit the people thinking about buying my product, right now. i have no idea if you're a mid-40s soccer mom or a dog on a keyboard, but if you search "notorious b.s.d. minivans" i know you are exactly the person i need to reach.

unfortunately, i can only reach you with a very-ignorable text ad. good thing for me, you're trying to find me, too. because it is intent harvesting. you intend to buy a minivan, you tell google/bing that quite deliberately, and i can reach you through that search

facebook and twitter advertising manage to combine the inept targeting of television with the garbage user engagement of text blurbs on bing. i have no idea whether you want to buy poo poo, and i'm showing you three lines of text you don't want to see

the numbers just about speak for themselves:

facebook averages $0.60/user/quarter

users average 60 hours/quarter on the site

that's a penny per user per hour
(and conversion rates are terrible)

if you look at revenue and not profit, it's four pennies an hour. woot.

the inept targeting and high prices on TV ads are starting to look p. good, aren't they?

welp i do appreciate the effort cause this is great info so thanks. as for the p/e crap i didn't want to spend time refining that down to "reasonable competitor" resolution which is why you got rough market avg, i agree google is going to trade higher than that at least for the foreseeable future. also yeah we are in a ridiculous bubble i agree!

i'm not so certain that "search" is an unassailable bulwark - like i said, especially on mobile (but on desktop too, really) i don't think average people care. if they type something in the box and it gives results, great, so it's really who gets the user to set them as default

the difference between the current values/earnings of the companies aren't a big deal since we're talking about what will happen in the future, not today

also v. pleased to have been a part of livening this thread up with some quality shitposting!

# ? Aug 21, 2014 05:54

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 14, 2024 23:18

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

Too many women?

the silicon valley call of the bean s�dhe

# ? Aug 21, 2014 06:13

Smythe: Oct 12, 2003

Ben Grahams Ghost posted:

i'm not so certain that "search" is an unassailable bulwark

osx obscures which search engine(s) its using in finder or spotlight or w/e the fk and just dumps results into the window manager. search is done through some ui gump too. ads and stuff get pruned out. doesnt relly matter tho kuz nobody uses osx hehe, and if ppl did then mebes search ppl would get pissed about it i reckon. but heck what do i know

# ? Aug 21, 2014 06:21

theadder: Dec 30, 2011

they have some ~deal~ with bing etc irl

# ? Aug 21, 2014 06:23

raruler: Oct 5, 2003; “Here lies a toppled god —
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.”

uncurable mlady posted:

is that the one where theres some weird virus and the people are on the boat and they want to stop the virus

so babylon 5 crusade?

# ? Aug 21, 2014 07:23

Linguica: Jul 13, 2000; You're already dead

Nintendo Kid posted:

less than 10 years

setting a calendar alert for august 2024: "fishmech is wrong"

i should set an recurring alert for that every month really

# ? Aug 21, 2014 07:45

Miley Virus: Apr 9, 2010

Linguica posted:

setting a calendar alert for august 2024: "fishmech is wrong"

i should set an recurring alert for that every hour really

# ? Aug 21, 2014 07:46

Linguica: Jul 13, 2000; You're already dead

ironically it is on google calendar

# ? Aug 21, 2014 07:52

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Ben Grahams Ghost posted:

i'm not so certain that "search" is an unassailable bulwark - like i said, especially on mobile (but on desktop too, really) i don't think average people care. if they type something in the box and it gives results, great, so it's really who gets the user to set them as default

on the consumer side: search quality is really, really hard to achieve. potentially billions of dollars in capital investment with no guaranteed payoff because it is really hard to get people to even try your service. it's so capital intensive and so hard to market that it became a field that rewards incumbents. first there were a dozen search engines, and then three, and now two.

on the advertiser side: network effects. no one wants to manage six ad vendors if the #1 vendor has 95% market share. getting people to buy ad spots on the #2 search engine is quite difficult. on #3, i'd reckon it's close to impossible.

google can be assholes and fuckups and still print money

# ? Aug 21, 2014 18:09

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE: Aug 1, 2004; whoa, what just happened here?; College Slice

re: search engine network effects

as expected, google's search share remains tied its all time high as of early this year, while bing's eating up share from everybody who is not google (though it does now hold ~18% share)

# ? Aug 21, 2014 19:20

cremnob: Jun 30, 2010

lol at "good search is really hard"

quote:

In July, Amazon hired Prime Air VP of Science Paul Viola, an MIT Ph.D. and former Microsoft researcher who led an engineering group at Bing which used machine learning to make dramatic improvements to Bing�s accuracy and precision. As one source told TechCrunch, under Viola�s supervision from 2010-2011, Bing made several jumps in precision both by its own metrics and Google�s. In fact, the source added, Google even started �war rooms� and ran several emergency sessions devoted to the sudden rise of Bing�s precision at this time.

http://techcrunch.com/2014/08/20/de...ttersocialshare

# ? Aug 21, 2014 19:28

Shark Sandwich: Sep 6, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Linguica posted:

setting a calendar alert for august 2024: "fishmech is wrong"

i should set an recurring alert for that every month really

he'll find a wiki page that proves he's only wrong once every 2.01 months

# ? Aug 21, 2014 19:37

cremnob: Jun 30, 2010

comparing facebook to tv ads is apt because they both get brand advertisers which command higher prices than lovely search ads. this is visible in their higher CPCs and CPMs. facebook also limits the amount of ads people see which contributes to the higher CPCs and CPMs but also shows they can dial it up whenever they want like google is doing now so this paragraph is kind of dumb. the 40 mins per day is pretty amazing tho

quote:

A back of the envelope analysis from Felix Stalder gives a sense of how little these ads are worth. Last quarter, Facebook reported that it had 1.32 billion users, collected $2.91 billion in revenue and made a profit of $791 million, for a profit margin of 27 percent. Facebook is clearly doing a great job making money from ads. But the profit per user is just under $0.60. That�s a fascinating figure, because Facebook reports that users spend 40 minutes per day on the site, or roughly 60 hours per quarter.

# ? Aug 21, 2014 19:39

BennyGsGhost: Jun 27, 2002; Low P/B or Bust; Pillbug

Smythe posted:

osx obscures which search engine(s) its using in finder or spotlight or w/e the fk and just dumps results into the window manager. search is done through some ui gump too. ads and stuff get pruned out. doesnt relly matter tho kuz nobody uses osx hehe, and if ppl did then mebes search ppl would get pissed about it i reckon. but heck what do i know

you're right but even on windows/whatever else if you're using a browser with some kinda "omnibar" you just type a thing. sure it then takes you to google/bing's search results page but they aren't so different (just talking about appearance, not results although i've heard bing is good these days).

i set my iPhone to use duck duck go just to try it out. it may still be set to that honestly i don't even know/care, when i search decent results come back so i'm fine. with that said i still set google as default search on desktop because my cj memories of other search engines being completely awful will never leave me

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

on the consumer side: search quality is really, really hard to achieve. potentially billions of dollars in capital investment with no guaranteed payoff because it is really hard to get people to even try your service. it's so capital intensive and so hard to market that it became a field that rewards incumbents. first there were a dozen search engines, and then three, and now two.

on the advertiser side: network effects. no one wants to manage six ad vendors if the #1 vendor has 95% market share. getting people to buy ad spots on the #2 search engine is quite difficult. on #3, i'd reckon it's close to impossible.

google can be assholes and fuckups and still print money

i agree with you that good search results have historically been tough, plenty of companies trying and failing at it (remember cuil, lol), although bing is decent these days. also agree that a search startup would be difficult if not impossible to pull off. but you're looking at motivated companies with billions of dollars to toss around. it might take years but they can get close enough. and close enough, if you start to muscle google out by leaving the default search set to something else on phones/computers, is gonna be good enough to shrink their share.

as for the advertising you know a shitload more than i do and what you're saying makes sense. as for vendor fragmentation maybe no one cares about the missing 5% with google at 95%, but what if they dip to 80% and bing or whoever snaps up 20% of the market? people maybe wave off 5% of the market but 20% is more difficult to dismiss.

lots of companies can be assholes and fuckups but that doesn't work forever, any cash hoarde can be depleted and any competitive advantage squandered if you're not careful. but it isn't gonna happen overnight

# ? Aug 21, 2014 20:17

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

bing was formed from the smoking ruins of the #2 and #3 search vendors, and it's bankrolled by a company that will happily spend billions with no hope of return

not worrying about making money is one way to get market share i guess

# ? Aug 21, 2014 20:40

PleasureKevin: Jan 2, 2011

re: self-driving cars

According to documents obtained under freedom-of-information legislation and seen by Quartz, Google lobbied Californian regulators for permission to keep minor accidents secret

# ? Aug 22, 2014 00:55

theadder: Dec 30, 2011

do no evil

# ? Aug 22, 2014 00:57

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

theadder posted:

do no evil

*for certain definitions of evil

# ? Aug 22, 2014 00:59

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

bing was formed from the smoking ruins of the #2 and #3 search vendors, and it's bankrolled by a company that will happily spend billions with no hope of return

not worrying about making money is one way to get market share i guess

i use bing solely to do searches towards getting amazon credit tbh

# ? Aug 22, 2014 02:13

Beeftweeter: Jun 28, 2005; OFFICIAL #1 GNOME FAN

Nintendo Kid posted:

i use bing solely to do searches towards getting amazon credit tbh

a few weeks ago they refused to send me anything because they thought i was using an ooolldd (like circa 2002) msn account that i forgot i even had

so i emailed them and said "ok i havent used that in literally years but deactivate that account if it makes you feel better" and i guess they never did because it still wont work

# ? Aug 22, 2014 02:17

duTrieux.: Oct 9, 2003

Nintendo Kid posted:

i use bing solely to do searches towards getting amazon credit tbh

# ? Aug 22, 2014 02:19

PleasureKevin: Jan 2, 2011

does that work in canada

# ? Aug 22, 2014 06:04

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

PleasureKevin posted:

does that work in canada

seems like itd be easy to do via a vpn at least

# ? Aug 22, 2014 06:14

Trimson Grondag 3: Jul 1, 2007; Clapping Larry

theadder posted:

do no evil

'we make military robots'

# ? Aug 22, 2014 06:45

Max Facetime: Apr 18, 2009

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

bing was formed from the smoking ruins of the #2 and #3 search vendors, and it's bankrolled by a company that will happily spend billions with no hope of return

not worrying about making money is one way to get market share i guess

WH-WHAT, amking the best search engine you can without a profit motive undermining your efforts leads to a market share??

who could have guessed!?

# ? Aug 22, 2014 13:25

Cold on a Cob: Feb 6, 2006; i've seen so much, i'm going blind
and i'm brain dead virtually; College Slice

PleasureKevin posted:

does that work in canada

officially no, but you could use the swagbucks search engine in canada to earn swagbucks :haw:

# ? Aug 22, 2014 13:52

PleasureKevin: Jan 2, 2011

what's the exchange rate of swag bucks to Canadian tire money to Stanley nickels

# ? Aug 22, 2014 16:07

cremnob: Jun 30, 2010

lol love when apple's "competition" drive each others margins down while apple cleans up with zero actual competition and strong barriers to entry.

cloud hosting, same-day shipping and now advertising

# ? Aug 23, 2014 00:53

cremnob: Jun 30, 2010

rest in piss

# ? Aug 23, 2014 00:54

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

cremnob so stupid he thinks a9 search was a success

# ? Aug 23, 2014 00:55

prefect: Sep 11, 2001; No one, Woodhouse.
No one.; Dead Man’s Band

PleasureKevin posted:

re: self-driving cars

According to documents obtained under freedom-of-information legislation and seen by Quartz, Google lobbied Californian regulators for permission to keep minor accidents secret

why you gotta make me start to think cremnob's got the right idea?

# ? Aug 23, 2014 00:57

theadder: Dec 30, 2011

prefect posted:

why you gotta make me start to think cremnob's got the right idea?

cremnob is the archetypal fallen disciple

# ? Aug 23, 2014 02:41

Forums Terrorist: Dec 8, 2011

theadder posted:

cremnob is the archetypal fallen disciple

what does falling entail

# ? Aug 23, 2014 22:17

Cold on a Cob: Feb 6, 2006; i've seen so much, i'm going blind
and i'm brain dead virtually; College Slice

theadder posted:

cremnob is the archetypal fallen disciple

is this a judas reference? idgi

# ? Aug 24, 2014 00:54

Smythe: Oct 12, 2003

theadder is eccentric

# ? Aug 24, 2014 01:23

cremnob: Jun 30, 2010

Facebook Assault on Google�s DoubleClick Coming This Fall

Few people thought much of Atlas when Facebook acquired the advertising technology company from Microsoft last year. Microsoft had bought Atlas in 2007 as part of its ill-fated $6 billion acquisition of aQuantive, and sold it to the social network for pennies on the dollar.

But a revitalized Atlas with new capabilities and new leadership has risen from the scrapheap to become a key piece of Facebook�s strategy for challenging Google�s dominance of the online advertising business.

Facebook has been pouring resources into Atlas in advance of a big new push with the product, expected to coincide with the Advertising Week trade show in late September, according to three people familiar with the plans. Among the anticipated new features is a so-called �demand-side platform,� a system that lets advertisers make automated bids for ad inventory.

https://www.theinformation.com/Facebook-Assault-on-Google-s-DoubleClick-Coming-This-Fall

rest in piss u fucks

# ? Aug 25, 2014 16:53