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OneThousandMonkeys posted:It's entirely combat taking too long. 90-95% of the game is combat, and it's slow combat where success is measured in how quickly and completely you shut down your enemies with marking and penalties. A 3-4 hour game is probably two encounters. If we had the same amount of 5E players we would have been going 2-3 times as fast. Figured as much. I can't help but wonder how much it would be sped up if statistics and abilities were autotracked. It would make tons of hard to track modifiers way easier to observe and reduce the amount of sheet and book checking each time a power gets used.
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Aug 21, 2014 18:55
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The Bee posted:Figured as much. I can't help but wonder how much it would be sped up if statistics and abilities were autotracked. It would make tons of hard to track modifiers way easier to observe and reduce the amount of sheet and book checking each time a power gets used. 4E would make a very, very good Final Fantasy Tactics-style video game. Sadly because of Atari we're not going to get that.
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Aug 21, 2014 18:56
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:4E would make a very, very good Final Fantasy Tactics-style video game. Sadly because of Atari we're not going to get that. the greatest problem 4E really had was, the one edition that would have easily made an awesome FFT style video game didn't get it.
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Aug 21, 2014 19:04
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I'm slowly reading through this thread, but I'll just jump at the end to ask this because holy poo poo this is huge. A friend of mine is starting a 5E game. I was thinking of playing either a cleric or a ranger. What are these classes like in 5? How do I break the game with them? I also considered making a flying barbarian, but all the talk about Martial sucking kind of made me lose interest. 
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Aug 21, 2014 19:18
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:It's entirely combat taking too long. 90-95% of the game is combat, and it's slow combat where success is measured in how quickly and completely you shut down your enemies with marking and penalties. A 3-4 hour game is probably two encounters. If we had the same amount of 5E players we would have been going 2-3 times as fast. I think that's over-simplifying it. In 4E a lot of things revolve around moving people around and as a result you're rewarded heavily as a DM (in terms of player engagement) by setting up real cool set piece arenas for people to fight in, because they can throw people into things and interact with it. You can do that in other systems but because combat is so fast and for a lot of people boils down to just full attacking or the Wizard ending it immediately it feels a lot less rewarding to setup a cool area and try to make a set piece combat and have someone completely poo poo on it and do nothing with the environment and win immediately. The players generally have no option to win instantly in 4E so if you devise a lot of cool stuff to happen in the fight there's time for it all to unwind and for the players to have to deal with everything.
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Aug 21, 2014 19:18
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Rosalind posted:Trip report: D&D Adventurer's League: Encounters- Tyranny of Dragons: Horde of the Dragon Queen Session 1 Could you post the optimized wizard someplace? I'm bad at picking spells, but really interested in what the wizard would need to dominate from 1-20, as I always thought caster supremacy kicked in later in levels.
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Aug 21, 2014 19:28
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GrayDorian posted:Could you post the optimized wizard someplace? I'm bad at picking spells, but really interested in what the wizard would need to dominate from 1-20, as I always thought caster supremacy kicked in later in levels. I posted her earlier. Here she is with the weird custom character sheet I make for myself with power cards: http://www.scribd.com/doc/237318133/Hera-Sunsworn The goal is to plink away with the longbow then use burning hands when enemies are setup for it. Mage Armor and Shield keep you safe. Having a high dex and a high int and a not terrible cha allow you to have a ton of interaction options outside of combat.
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Aug 21, 2014 19:31
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MonsieurChoc posted:A friend of mine is starting a 5E game. I was thinking of playing either a cleric or a ranger. What are these classes like in 5? How do I break the game with them? I'm enjoying my TWF focused Ranger a lot, but I've been a fan of the class in all its variations through-out the editions. In 5e I find it works about as well as any martial, though I believe a ranged focus build would be better off. The class doesn't seem to suffer in any particular way, at least no more so than any other martial and if anything, it gets better off due to getting access to hybrid spell progression starting at level 2. With Hunter's Mark, two weapons and at level 3, Colossus Slayer from the Hunter's martial path, you get two shortswords at 1d6+mod on both if you grab Two Weapon Fighting style at level 2, Hunter's Mark on one target adding a 1d6 to damage and if the target is anywhere less than its full HP, it also takes 1d8 damage on one of your hits. Forgo the offhand weapon for a bow and you're still looking at 1d8+mod, 1d6 and 1d8 in one shot on a less-than-full enemy. It's a lot of potential damage for level 3, but that also means a lot of rolling dice. A draw back I've experienced is a slightly lesser AC score. There's some ways to make that up, like picking up Dual Wield feat to get +1 AC, choosing the Defense feature at level 2 and picking medium armor mastery feat (provided you have +3 dex mod). There isn't any methods to negating damage dealt like what the Rogue gets, not until 15 in the Hunter's path. I'm not too into the later level features either, like Foe Slayer adding your wisdom mod to the damage against favored enemies only. Seems entirely too weak for that level. I'm also hearing the pet path is upsetting due to having to spend your action to tell the pet to attack, but I don't know how that influences its damage potential compared to Hunter path. On the flip side, my Cleric/Monk was doing great. Up until PHB, where the Monk changes drastically lowered his potential. In contrast the Cleric side has always been potent. "Standing above the rest of the group" would definitely fall on the Cleric. It can do a lot with just about any domain path thanks to spells. Lothire fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Aug 21, 2014 |
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Aug 21, 2014 20:20
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:It's entirely combat taking too long. 90-95% of the game is combat, and it's slow combat where success is measured in how quickly and completely you shut down your enemies with marking and penalties. A 3-4 hour game is probably two encounters. If we had the same amount of 5E players we would have been going 2-3 times as fast. Yep. Totally this. 4e at higher levels is all about shutting down enemies. Hard control powers and massive attack penalties allow you to take out small numbers of combatants without risk. It's a slow strategy but an optimal one. The way to make it not optimal is to have lots of weaker enemies... but that inherently slows things down too. Soooo... you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. One of the things I tried to do in Strike! is to buff damage-dealing a bit in relation to control powers. Trying to shift the balance to an aggressive style rather than a risk-averse one in the interests of speeding up play.
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Aug 22, 2014 00:00
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So yeah came across an interesting multiclass combo on the WotC forums:quote:Champion Fighter 7/Bard 2
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Aug 22, 2014 01:21
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AFAIK the book states you can't add your proficiency bonus more than once to any single roll.
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Aug 22, 2014 01:23
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That isn't what it is doing. It has two separate features that work similarly, but not exactly the same, that add half of proficiency bonus to checks that don't get proficiency bonus. Neither feature will add to a skill or save that you are actually proficient in, but when both features work, which is only for the physical stats, they add together to basically be equivalent to having proficiency even though you don't actually have proficiency.
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Aug 22, 2014 01:27
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... I've just made a first level Druid competitive in DPR with a fighter going flat out - while not surrendering casting ability in the slightest. A variant human gains +1 to two different stats and a feat, meaning that they can take their high stat to 16. Take the Polearm feat. Your polearms (including quarterstaffs) can hit with the butt end better than twin swords can - you get the free attack with your stat modifier. You also get an opportunity attack against anyone who comes rushing in to your reach. Then take the druid cantrip Shillelagh. As a bonus action use your casting stat for your quarterstaff - and it becomes a d8 weapon even if held one handed. At this point you're able to fight better than a TWF fighter who specialises in TWFery - which is the strongest style at low level. (Arguably the reverse end of the staff also becomes d8). But wait. There's more. Druids are proficient with medium armour and shields. Which means you've an AC that's going to match the fighter. Sure, the fighter leaves you in the dust when they get the second attack. And you get third level spells. But starting out in melee able to take on the fighter and win while being a primary caster is ... not meant to happen. At least you aren't an aggressively hegmonising ursine swarm I suppose...
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Aug 22, 2014 02:23
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neonchameleon posted:... I've just made a first level Druid competitive in DPR with a fighter going flat out - while not surrendering casting ability in the slightest. By the time the fighter is again outpacing you, you've got hella magic. "Caster outpaces fighter at the only thing fighter does, while the caster retains all other features" is rather expected, though.
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Aug 22, 2014 02:49
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neonchameleon posted:aggressively hegmonising ursine swarm I don't suppose anyone could link/give me a full explanation on this? All I've been able to find is "Druid is bear, companion is bear, exponential bears."
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Aug 22, 2014 03:12
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Daetrin posted:I don't suppose anyone could link/give me a full explanation on this? All I've been able to find is "Druid is bear, companion is bear, exponential bears." This is probably a reference to 4E where you can be a bear with the bear theme who summons bears and rides a bear, IIRC.
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Aug 22, 2014 03:18
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It's a good level 1, but Druids won't wear metal armor, and the only medium armor that isn't metal is hide, which sucks, so your AC isn't gonna be as good. Probably going to want to wield a club and shield. Meanwhile, a human fighter that wants to dual wield is probably going to take a feat too, like the Dual Wielding one, and have at least d8 weapons as well. If they're crazy, they might even have 2 lances and a mount. But what if the mount is you? Instead of trying to outfighter the fighter, you could take a feat that is more useful when you hit level 2 and get Wildshape, hopefully Circle of the Moon for the better forms, because otherwise the whole class feature is pretty useless in combat. Sentinel, for instance, so you can punish enemies that try to hit the party member riding you. If that party member is a cool person and takes Mounted Combatant, they can even force something that's attacking you to attack them instead, which would then trigger Sentinel! And the rider would get advantage on melee attacks against enemies smaller than you. It's not as though you cede damage dealing to do this either, because Moon forms are pretty scary. Warhorses are a little less accurate but potentially double attacking for 11 damage each and proning is no joke. Dire wolves trade the potential double attack for advantage whenever an ally is adjacent to their target, and don't need to charge to force a save vs prone. Also they're much tankier than the warhorse and the martials for a few levels too.
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Aug 22, 2014 03:27
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Daetrin posted:I don't suppose anyone could link/give me a full explanation on this? All I've been able to find is "Druid is bear, companion is bear, exponential bears." OneThousandMonkeys posted:This is probably a reference to 4E where you can be a bear with the bear theme who summons bears and rides a bear, IIRC. 3e reference, actually.
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Aug 22, 2014 03:29
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:This is probably a reference to 4E where you can be a bear with the bear theme who summons bears and rides a bear, IIRC. efb
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Aug 22, 2014 03:30
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:This is probably a reference to 4E where you can be a bear with the bear theme who summons bears and rides a bear, IIRC. Actually it's a 3.5 reference. Where you did much the same thing and utterly swamped the combat as everyone was about the equivalent of a fighter rather than being useful but not utterly ludicrous. Edit: Ninja'd
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Aug 22, 2014 03:31
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That's just good fun. Kind of like the skeleton horde. Also, wonder how I missed that post. Oh well.
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Aug 22, 2014 03:42
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Ryuujin posted:That isn't what it is doing. It has two separate features that work similarly, but not exactly the same, that add half of proficiency bonus to checks that don't get proficiency bonus. Neither feature will add to a skill or save that you are actually proficient in, but when both features work, which is only for the physical stats, they add together to basically be equivalent to having proficiency even though you don't actually have proficiency. Nah, that still counts as adding proficiency twice. See pp173-4 of the PHB: "Occasionally, your proficiency bonus might be multiplied or divided (doubled or halved, for example) before you apply it... If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll, you still add it only once and multiply or divide it only once."
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Aug 22, 2014 03:56
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Is there any spell the Eldritch Knight's Eldritch Strike actually has good synergy with? Ideally from the Evocation or Abjuration schools because I don't want to give up Blur, because of course all the best buffs are in the schools you're given restricted access to. Also, thanks for the Extra Attacks that I can't use with the Eldritch Knight's Cantrip-Then-Attack ability, WotC. Christ, I miss the 4e Swordmage.
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Aug 22, 2014 04:22
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Banishment in school, Hideous Laughter out of schools.
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Aug 22, 2014 05:57
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slydingdoor posted:But what if the mount is you?  And the dire wolf knocks prone on top of having advantage for the nearby ally. Oh god its beautiful. I think I need some sort of skeleton metric to understand this. How many skeletal archers can we fit on an huge elephant or mammoth druid? An elephant can carry 1320 pounds of stuff without penalty, according to the lifting rules (22 str Huge elephant). The average skeleton is 15% of body mass, so like 30 pounds, plus a 2lb longbow and 1lb quiver. 33 pounds means 40 skeletons. And we are going to need some sort of skeleton harness to strap them all in, reducing the carrying capacity a bit. And of course we need to fit a necromancer up there to give orders.  And what about a killer whale druid, for some underwater skeletal infiltration? Skellies can hold onto a rope or something and don't need to breath. The necromancer can ride along polymorphed as a remora or whatever. Druid and necro: terrors of the 7 seas. ritorix fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Aug 22, 2014 |
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Aug 22, 2014 11:50
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NECROMANCER AND DRUID ARE FRIENDS would be an excellent children's book about friendship, bipartisanship, and utterly destroying all opposition.
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Aug 22, 2014 14:13
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And I'm going to quote it because i wrote it and I still think it's hilarious.quote:Consider the 8th level druid. Now, an 8th level druid can do many things, like cast spells or shapeshift, but they also get an animal companion. At 8th level, their animal companion is likely to be a brown bear. Now, a Brown Bear gets 3 attacks a round, is Large (he gets free attacks whenever anyone moves up to him), has a 27 strength, and can make grapple checks as a free action whenever it hits you. An 8th level fighter, for comparison, can only make 2 attacks a round, although he probably has better accuracy and AC and he should have more tricks to use than a bear. Daetrin posted:That's just good fun. Kind of like the skeleton horde. You could do a similar thing in 4e with Bjorn Bjornson, (Hengayokai Beast Tamer Shaman/Druid) a half-man, half-bear who rides a bear and turns into a bear and summons bears and shoots ghost bears at people, but it strangely manages not to destroy game balance. 4e also let you be a half-vampire/vampire/vampire/Vampire. It really was too good for this dumb earth. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Aug 22, 2014 |
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Aug 22, 2014 14:26
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:4e also let you be a half-vampire/vampire/vampire/Vampire. It really was too good for this dumb earth. It's not the most effective build, or the most powerful. But it certainly is the build that has the most vampire.
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Aug 22, 2014 14:31
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Ratoslov posted:It's not the most effective build, or the most powerful. But it certainly is the build that has the most vampire.
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Aug 22, 2014 14:35
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How much more vampire could this be? The answer is none. None more vampire.
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Aug 22, 2014 14:35
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I got a fever. And the only cure...is more vampire!
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Aug 22, 2014 14:37
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If only you could summon your own pet vampires for when you need just that bit extra
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Aug 22, 2014 14:38
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Wasn't it actually something like half-vampire race + half-vampire feat + vampire class = two vampires total?
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Aug 22, 2014 14:57
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Lord of Bore posted:If only you could summon your own pet vampires for when you need just that bit extra Multiclass Warlock, take Summon Warlock's Ally, summon eldritch vampire brides (Mourning Handmaidens).
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Aug 22, 2014 14:58
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Ferrinus posted:Wasn't it actually something like half-vampire race + half-vampire feat + vampire class = two vampires total? This sounds right. You could also pick a Revenant Vryloka to be a Zombie Double-Vampire.
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Aug 22, 2014 15:09
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Multiclass Warlock, take Summon Warlock's Ally, summon eldritch vampire brides (Mourning Handmaidens). It is clear to me now what my next character will be. Nay, what it must be.
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Aug 22, 2014 15:11
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Jimbozig posted:This sounds right. You could also pick a Revenant Vryloka to be a Zombie Double-Vampire. Revenant has a separate concomitant feat chain that turns it into a vampire (Dark Feasting), so you could be a half-vampire/half-vampire in a past life that returned from the grave as a vampire and then was bitten by a vampire and turned into a Vampire.
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Aug 22, 2014 15:20
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Revenant has a separate concomitant feat chain that turns it into a vampire (Dark Feasting), so you could be a half-vampire/half-vampire in a past life that returned from the grave as a vampire and then was bitten by a vampire and turned into a Vampire. So... Blade and Rayne had a kid (let's call her BladeRayne) and then that kid died, but her various half-vampire powers awoke during death and she rose from the grave. Then there was a real dracula waiting at the grave who bit her to make her fully one of their kind. Oh, and she learned martial arts from Goku. Of course. My special snowflayke is now complete.
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Aug 22, 2014 15:31
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Revenant has a separate concomitant feat chain that turns it into a vampire (Dark Feasting), so you could be a half-vampire/half-vampire in a past life that returned from the grave as a vampire and then was bitten by a vampire and turned into a Vampire. I don't buy it. You might as well call all infernal warlocks vampires.
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Aug 22, 2014 15:46
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Official splatbook spotted. Continuing the trend of outsourcing from wotc. Adventurer's Handbook (March 17, 2015; hardcover; $39.95) -- A Dungeons & Dragons Accessory. Create Heroic Characters to Conquer the Elements in this Accessory for the World’s Greatest Roleplaying Game Not inherently evil, elemental power can be mastered by those with both malevolent and benign intentions. The Elemental Evil Adventurer’s Handbook provides everything that players need to build a character that is tied directly into the Elemental Evil story arc, with skills, abilities, and spells meant to augment their play experience throughout the campaign. Additionally, valuable background and story information provides greater depth and immersion. An accessory that expands the number of options available for character creation for the Elemental Evil story arc, providing expanded backgrounds, class builds, and races meant specifically for this campaign. Provides background and setting information critical to having the greatest chance of success. Accessory design and development by Sasquatch Game Studio LLC. Princes of the Apolcalypse (March 17, 2015; hardcover; $49.95) -- A Dungeons & Dragons Adventure. Abolish an Ancient Evil Threatening Devastation in this Adventure for the World’s Greatest Roleplaying Game Called by the Elder Elemental Eye to serve, four corrupt prophets have risen from the depths of anonymity to claim mighty weapons with direct links to the power of the elemental princes. Each of these prophets has assembled a cadre of cultists and creatures to serve them in the construction of four elemental temples of lethal design. It is up to adventurers from heroic factions such as the Emerald Enclave and the Order of the Gauntlet to discover where the true power of each prophet lay, and dismantle it before it comes boiling up to obliterate the Realms. A super-adventure for the Elemental Evil story arc, Princes of the Apocalypse provides everything a Dungeon Master needs to create an exciting and memorable play experience. Fans of the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Roleplaying Game can get a sample of what this product has in store for them through the D&D Encounters(TM) in-store play program. Adventure design and development by Sasquatch Game Studio LLC.
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Aug 22, 2014 15:47
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