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KernelSlanders
May 27, 2013

Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.

thefncrow posted:

Fun fact, this is actually Dallas PD policy now. Last year, there was an an officer-involved shooting where the officer made his statement and then surveillance camera footage that contradicted the statement came out.

In response, DPD changed a policy to require a 72 hour delay before an officer gives a statement regarding a shooting they were involved in.

Ive seen that reported before. What's the official justification for the policy? Presumably they claim something other than we want to make sure the officer can get his story straight if the shooting wasn't actually justified. For any other homicide the police would want to get statements on record as quickly as possible before memories fade. Also, presumably any evidence that could contradict a story would be kept from the suspect.

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ChairMaster
Aug 22, 2009

by R. Guyovich
Jesus fuckin christ, do people still think that there's a nonviolent solution to this problem?

How is it that the people of the most well-armed nation on Earth can manage to fuckin get slaughtered every single day by the people who are supposedly there to protect them and literally nothing ever comes of it? In certain cities all black people should be carrying guns at any time and they should all be travelling in groups of 4 or more. Yea, cops are gonna use that as an excuse to attack you, but they were gonna do that anyways. Create an actual danger of them being hurt or killed and maybe they'll start thinking twice.

It really can't get much worse and definitely isn't gonna get any better any time soon.

thefncrow
Mar 14, 2001

KernelSlanders posted:

Ive seen that reported before. What's the official justification for the policy? Presumably they claim something other than we want to make sure the officer can get his story straight if the shooting wasn't actually justified. For any other homicide the police would want to get statements on record as quickly as possible before memories fade. Also, presumably any evidence that could contradict a story would be kept from the suspect.

Dallas News story from when it came public:

quote:

Alexis Artwohl, a nationally known behavior consultant for law enforcement agencies, said studies show officers need rest before they can accurately recount traumatic events.
“They are not passive observers watching something from an easy chair,” she said. “They are at the scene where life-and-death decisions are being made, and they’re an integral part of it. So of course they are going to be impacted.”
Brown said in his email that the science was “fairly conclusive.” He also said at an October news conference that he experienced memory problems when he was shot at once.
“It wasn’t until two or three days later to where I remembered it accurately,” he said.

Also, I forgot two elements to the policy. It applies to the officers who just observe the shooting as well, so that alibis aren't closed off to the shooter by the statements of other cops present. Also, the old policy allowed the shooter to view any video evidence of the shooting collected prior to giving a statement. Now, all the observers also get to view that video before making a statement.

LorneReams
Jun 27, 2003
I'm bizarre
Funny how people who are not cops, who you would expect to be more affected by a shooting then someone trained, do not get this same consideration.

Eggplant Squire
Aug 14, 2003


LorneReams posted:

Funny how people who are not cops, who you would expect to be more affected by a shooting then someone trained, do not get this same consideration.

This really burns me. Like police are given a huge leeway in regards to killing people because of "the stress of the situation" and whatnot even when they are in control of and/or started it. However when a homeowner has strange men bust into his house at 2 a.m he's expected to be totally sharp and not make any mistakes regarding shooting at the intruders. Every time I hear some politician or whatever talk about our amazing "civilized" justice system it makes me super mad since it's so obviously busted.

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe
That's magical.

Citizen involved shooting: "Let's see if we can get him to incriminate himself before the lawyer gets here."

Officer involved shooting: "I need time to rest before I can recall events correctly."

Imagine George Zimmerman. "I need time to rest, everything is so up in the air right now bro."

Oswald: "I need time to rest!" Jack Ruby: *BLAM BLAM* "There you go pal, rest away. I need time to rest too!"

The mention of Alexis Artwohl (o look! why she even has her own page on PoliceOne) also raises the issue of corrupt "experts for hire" like her and Mas Ayoob who will say what is needed in court and the media.

woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Aug 22, 2014

KernelSlanders
May 27, 2013

Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.

quote:

Brown said in his email that the science was “fairly conclusive.”

Well, yes the science on memory recall is fairly conclusive of the opposite of what they are claiming.

For example:
  • http://www.psychedout.org/uploads/2/7/9/7/27978279/loftus_pickrell_1995.pdf
  • http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976340900181X
  • http://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/BF03198473
  • http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/xap/9/2/101/

But, of course, the goal isn't an accurate story; it's a consistent story that may or may not be dishonest.

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe
Oh, look! That PoliceOne "Academy Instructors List" just keeps on giving.

Here's one of their experts on "excited delirium":



quote:

Lt. Fatface Whiteshirt Fucktoon Michael Paulus, an excited delirium subject matter expert, is a certified Force Science Analyst and 25-year veteran of the Champaign (Ill.) PD. Lt. Paulus was instrumental in developing and coordinating the implementation of the Multi-Disciplinary Response Protocol and Multiple Officer Control Tactic in Champaign County.

"Ma'am your son perished due to an episode of the medically unrecognized real beyond measure phenomenon of 'excited delirium.' Rest assured that I'm a nationally recognized expert on it. What's my qualification? I've been police for literally A Grip of Years."

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 23, 2011



Please say the cure for excited delirium is bullets to the face.

KernelSlanders
May 27, 2013

Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.

Evil Sagan posted:

Please say the cure for excited delirium is bullets to the face.


nobody posted:

Excited delirium (ED) is a common pathology presenting with a number of symptoms that effect anti-social consequences. Previous estimates suggest tens of hours of lost productivity and hundreds of dollars of damage in the U.S. alone in a typical year. Despite much attention from the cognitive force science field, efficacious treatments have remained elusive. Here, we investigate a novel treatment for ED consisting of high velocity heavy metal thoracotomy (HVHMT). In all test subjects HVHMT resulted in rapid relief of ED symptoms, and all subjects remained symptom free for six months post-treatment. Although primary outcomes for out treatment cohort were positive, several subjects experienced acute reactions to treatment including blood loss, pneumathoraxic complications, and death. Further investigation will be required.

Kaal
May 22, 2002

through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

LorneReams posted:

Funny how people who are not cops, who you would expect to be more affected by a shooting then someone trained, do not get this same consideration.

Agreed. It's not so much that I object to cops being presumed innocent by a sympathetic and understanding judicial system actively protecting their civil rights, backed by a strong union with progressive employee policies - it's that I wish everyone else got the same treatment. And that the cops and district attorneys wouldn't stomp all over anyone that seeks parity of status.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

Fruity Rudy posted:

If this hasn't been posted yet, massive piece with many of the recent cases that show exactly why reform is needed urgently: "When people ask why I have a problem with law enforcement in the U.S., it's hard to come up with a single answer."

haha, is that noted d&d shitlord-from-the-past blairerickson?

Sir Tonk
Apr 18, 2006
Young Orc

KernelSlanders posted:

While I agree with you in principle, if you think you're ever going to see a uniformed officer in handcuffs you're living in a fantasy world.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/15/charlotte-police-officer-charged-with-manslaughter-after-shooting-unarmed-man/

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005


I like how the example you choose:

1. Doesn't include any pictures of the cop in handcuffs. The guy never got perp-walked which is part of what the poster you quoted was talking about.
2. The cop hasn't been sentenced yet.
3. It took two 2 grand juries to indite, as the first grand jury failed to indite but the prosecutor was allowed to call a second larger one.

and that case includes this lovely detail:

quote:

"What's most aggravating about all of this, just shocking and inhumane, after they shot him ten times on the ground, they handcuffed him. The handcuffs weren't removed from Jonathan Ferrell's body until he got to the medical examiners office."

Also, if this officer is convicted it will be solely because of the dashcam and not the testimony of the 2 other officers at the scene.


Edit: another important detail here was the the cop was charged the day after the killing, which is very very rare.
Edit2: Holy poo poo, I didn't realize that one of the officers tried to taze him first, but the tazer failed. So even if Jonathan Ferrell hadn't been killed for being in a car crash, he would have been tazed.

Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Aug 23, 2014

KernelSlanders
May 27, 2013

Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.

quote:

Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Chief Rodney Monroe said at a news conference that Officer Randall Kerrick had turned himself in.

My point was the other officers on the scene are never going to arrest a fellow on-duty officer as was the case here. The other two cops at the scene were placed on paid leave and the trigger man turned himself in (and presumably posted bail within minutes) some time later after the DA charged files.

What I said, that you'll never see a uniformed officer in handcuffs for something he did on duty, is not contradicted by your example.

Vahakyla
May 3, 2013

KernelSlanders posted:

My point was the other officers on the scene are never going to arrest a fellow on-duty officer as was the case here. The other two cops at the scene were placed on paid leave and the trigger man turned himself in (and presumably posted bail within minutes) some time later after the DA charged files.

What I said, that you'll never see a uniformed officer in handcuffs for something he did on duty, is not contradicted by your example.

Sheriff Al Cannon, Charleston County, SC, after slapping a suspect, was placed under arrest by his own deputies, right on the scene.

He was booked to the jail carrying his own name and the department's own investigation, of which Cannon is the Sheriff of, requested State Law Enforcement Division to make another investigation, which led to another arrest.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20120828/PC16/120829206

Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Aug 23, 2014

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

Vahakyla posted:

Sheriff Al Cannon, Charleston County, SC, after slapping a suspect, was placed under arrest by his own deputies, right on the scene.

He was booked to the jail carrying his own name and the department's own investigation, of which Cannon is the Sheriff of, requested State Law Enforcement Division to make another investigation, which led to another arrest.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20120828/PC16/120829206

In this example, the Sheriff is still in office and never went to trial.

Vahakyla
May 3, 2013

Trabisnikof posted:

In this example, the Sheriff is still in office and never went to trial.

Because for a misdemeanor assault, a poo poo ton of people get diversion if the conditions are filled. He filled the conditions, and got it.

Plus, Cannon should be in office. He is well liked and actually, really, cares for the people here, riding on his free time with a K9 looking for long disappeared people, going through old paperwork and investigations.

He also hooks up with old criminals, helping them get jobs and made a pretty progressive (southern standards) half way house for the jail, allowing people to go visit home, go to work and such if they behave well.


He also has backlogged arrest warrant in an effort to not harass poor communities and he refused to go on a wild goose chase after two high profile white victim murders, citing the fact that the poorer neighborhoods had more unsolves crimes and demanded more manpower.

He has a good support among the poor in the unfortunate areas.

Needless to say, poo poo could be way worse with some tea party sheriff.


He should get a second chance. He is a net benefit for the State and punishing him more harshy for a misdemeanor assault, harsher than the average citizen would be in the current sentencing guidelines, would be a retarded move. Maybe it would satisfy your bloodlust, though.

Even with your loaded question, you had to move the goalposts.

The loving sheriff himself was both cuffed and received same penalty as joe down the street. And you scream foul.

Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Aug 23, 2014

KernelSlanders
May 27, 2013

Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.

Vahakyla posted:

Sheriff Al Cannon, Charleston County, SC, after slapping a suspect, was placed under arrest by his own deputies, right on the scene.

He was booked to the jail carrying his own name and the department's own investigation, of which Cannon is the Sheriff of, requested State Law Enforcement Division to make another investigation, which led to another arrest.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20120828/PC16/120829206

I think you're taking my "uniformed officer" and "on duty" phrases in some kind of symbolic way like law enforcement are "uniformed officers." I don't I mean it quite literally. The situation I'm talking about that never happens is officer A violently and criminally assaults suspect in the presence of officer B and officer B intervenes to stop the assault and arrest officer A.

This second purported counter example also isn't.

quote:

The arrest was a result of an investigation requested by the Sheriff’s Office. He will be prosecuted by the 16th Circuit Solicitor’s Office, SLED said...

Brackett said he is not recommending any charges be filed against any of the other officers who participated in the Jan. 30 chase of Timothy McManus, 31, of Mount Pleasant.

The arrest was the result of an investigation conducted sometime afterwards and the other officers at the scene did nothing to intervene.

Sir Tonk
Apr 18, 2006
Young Orc
Baby steps, people!

Anyway, that's not the story I was looking for. It was mentioned on NPR this week and I'll see if I can track it down today.

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe

Vahakyla posted:

The loving sheriff himself was both cuffed and received same penalty as joe down the street. And you scream foul.

Yeah, that's what a foul is. Foul. Does it annoy you, do you feel like slapping somebody? Maybe you should go and work for Sheriff Al Cannon.

ReV VAdAUL
Oct 3, 2004

I'm WILD about
WILDMAN

Vahakyla posted:

Because for a misdemeanor assault, a poo poo ton of people get diversion if the conditions are filled. He filled the conditions, and got it.

Plus, Cannon should be in office. He is well liked and actually, really, cares for the people here, riding on his free time with a K9 looking for long disappeared people, going through old paperwork and investigations.

He also hooks up with old criminals, helping them get jobs and made a pretty progressive (southern standards) half way house for the jail, allowing people to go visit home, go to work and such if they behave well.


He also has backlogged arrest warrant in an effort to not harass poor communities and he refused to go on a wild goose chase after two high profile white victim murders, citing the fact that the poorer neighborhoods had more unsolves crimes and demanded more manpower.

He has a good support among the poor in the unfortunate areas.

Needless to say, poo poo could be way worse with some tea party sheriff.


He should get a second chance. He is a net benefit for the State and punishing him more harshy for a misdemeanor assault, harsher than the average citizen would be in the current sentencing guidelines, would be a retarded move. Maybe it would satisfy your bloodlust, though.

Even with your loaded question, you had to move the goalposts.

The loving sheriff himself was both cuffed and received same penalty as joe down the street. And you scream foul.

Joe down the street's job doesn't include responsibility for the welfare of criminal suspects who are being detained on his orders. Joe down the street can't have people abducted off the street and interrogated based on his decisions. Joe down the street isn't in charge of a group of people who are allowed to speed and kill people if they deem it necessary.

Sheriff Al Canon has way more power to misuse and abuse than Joe down the street does so he has to be held to a way higher standard than Joe down the street.

Rocko Bonaparte
Mar 12, 2002

Every day is Friday!
I'm kind of taking both perspectives at the same time and it makes me feel worse. It's like Cannon apparently isn't a total dick, so he gets publicly arrested for something. What is that implying?

Ashcans
Jan 2, 2006

Let's do the space-time warp again!

KernelSlanders posted:

While I agree with you in principle, if you think you're ever going to see a uniformed officer in handcuffs you're living in a fantasy world.

This did happen one time, but completely not in the way intended.



Best not cross that blue line.

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

Ashcans posted:

This did happen one time, but completely not in the way intended.



Best not cross that blue line.

Just ask Adrian Schoolcraft.

KernelSlanders
May 27, 2013

Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.

Ashcans posted:

This did happen one time, but completely not in the way intended.



Best not cross that blue line.

While I think, perhaps, I may need to iterate the wording of my statement, that story (and Schoolcraft) I think reinforce rather than undermine my point.

DARPA
Apr 24, 2005
We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over.
Off duty cop moonlighting as a security guard in a hooded sweatshirt and dark pants with his gun drawn demands a 17 get out of the car. Kid tries to get away and the cop kills him. No indictment.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/27/off-duty-texas-cop-cleared-in-fatal-shooting-of-teen-he-suspected-of-drug-use/

This is what the officer was wearing:

Obdicut
May 15, 2012

"What election?"

DARPA posted:

Off duty cop moonlighting as a security guard in a hooded sweatshirt and dark pants with his gun drawn demands a 17 get out of the car. Kid tries to get away and the cop kills him. No indictment.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/27/off-duty-texas-cop-cleared-in-fatal-shooting-of-teen-he-suspected-of-drug-use/

And because the grand jury proceedings are sealed, we have no idea if this was the prosecutor totally failing to bring evidence in, or the jury being wildly biased pro-cop. Probably the former, though.

Immanentized
Mar 17, 2009
This happened last evening/today:

http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/off...1a4bcf6878.html

Don't know if this particular article has been updated, but it looks like the suspect was armed with a BB gun. Do you guys think COPS will use the footage against the police in a compensation/wrongful death suit, or would that compromise their relationship with other Departments? I ask due to the fact that the show is a huge factor in normalizing the current trends in law enforcement, and if they were to chip in to the current situation, it would be a significant indicator into how the conversation will go from there.

edits for spelling and grammar.

Immanentized fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Aug 27, 2014

LorneReams
Jun 27, 2003
I'm bizarre

DARPA posted:

Off duty cop moonlighting as a security guard in a hooded sweatshirt and dark pants with his gun drawn demands a 17 get out of the car. Kid tries to get away and the cop kills him. No indictment.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/27/off-duty-texas-cop-cleared-in-fatal-shooting-of-teen-he-suspected-of-drug-use/

This is what the officer was wearing:



This is my personal fear.

Even better:

quote:

A neighbor who videotaped the shooting said Garza was wearing a gray hooded sweatshirt and dark pants, rather than a uniform, and he said the officer demanded that he delete video or images of the incident from his cell phone.

This sounds like someone who knows they done hosed up.

LorneReams fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Aug 27, 2014

LorneReams
Jun 27, 2003
I'm bizarre
I have to add that I've had personal experiance with this. My wife was coming home from work and in the center of our town, stopped to get gas. It was like 1230am and the only other car in the gas station was a crappy looking Ford Taurus. My wife finishes pumping, pays, and gets into her car. All of a sudden, the car speeds up and pull next to her and a guy in jeans and a t shirt starts screaming at her to open her door. She's like 5'5 and 90lbs and it's 1230, so she speeds the gently caress away. The guy chases her home and as I see he pull in from the window, two police cars follow. I run out, and they are tossing the car and pushing her against the ground. I take two steps out and both cops immediatly pull their guns on me yelling to get down. Of course I drop.


Apparently her car matched the decription of one used to rob some drug dealer. The guy who approched her was a plainclothes police officer. He was livid and told my wife that running like that could have gotten her killed. We both filed complaints (no one would give numbers, and it took hours before they uncuffed us) and moved out of the city (and the state!) within 6 months.


Sorry, this story just brought all of that back.

Obdicut
May 15, 2012

"What election?"

LorneReams posted:

I have to add that I've had personal experiance with this. My wife was coming home from work and in the center of our town, stopped to get gas. It was like 1230am and the only other car in the gas station was a crappy looking Ford Taurus. My wife finishes pumping, pays, and gets into her car. All of a sudden, the car speeds up and pull next to her and a guy in jeans and a t shirt starts screaming at her to open her door. She's like 5'5 and 90lbs and it's 1230, so she speeds the gently caress away. The guy chases her home and as I see he pull in from the window, two police cars follow. I run out, and they are tossing the car and pushing her against the ground. I take two steps out and both cops immediatly pull their guns on me yelling to get down. Of course I drop.


Apparently her car matched the decription of one used to rob some drug dealer. The guy who approched her was a plainclothes police officer. He was livid and told my wife that running like that could have gotten her killed. We both filed complaints (no one would give numbers, and it took hours before they uncuffed us) and moved out of the city (and the state!) within 6 months.


Sorry, this story just brought all of that back.

It's especially problematic because a lot of the time police do announce themselves, perfunctorily, by screaming "Police", but when you're suddenly startled you're not necessarily going to process what the hell the screaming person is saying. No-knock warrants, especially. If you suddenly confront a sleeping/high/drunk person, you can't honestly claim you 'identified' yourself as a cop just by screaming 'police'.

Pohl
Jan 28, 2005




In the future, please post shit with the sole purpose of antagonizing the person running this site. Thank you.

Obdicut posted:

It's especially problematic because a lot of the time police do announce themselves, perfunctorily, by screaming "Police", but when you're suddenly startled you're not necessarily going to process what the hell the screaming person is saying. No-knock warrants, especially. If you suddenly confront a sleeping/high/drunk person, you can't honestly claim you 'identified' yourself as a cop just by screaming 'police'.

For some reason we have had a lot of people in my area decide that they could be better crooks by presenting themselves as police. The jokes write themselves, obviously.

However, the police had to recognize that people were doing this, and we've been told to not pull over for an unmarked car, but to instead keep driving and call 911. All in all, it sounds like a great way to get shot.

DARPA
Apr 24, 2005
We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over.
The problem seems to be officers confusing their guns for the source of their authority and respect rather than their badge and uniform.

DARPA fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Aug 27, 2014

KernelSlanders
May 27, 2013

Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.
The whole grand jury system is fairly antiquated and dates to a time when the vast majority of prosecutions were conducted privately. Although, given some of the events in this thread, maybe bringing them back wouldn't be such a terrible idea. It wouldn't help poor people necessarily, but at least it could create some accountability. I'm not crazy about suggesting trickle-down justice, but if it works. :shrug:

Obdicut
May 15, 2012

"What election?"

KernelSlanders posted:

The whole grand jury system is fairly antiquated and dates to a time when the vast majority of prosecutions were conducted privately. Although, given some of the events in this thread, maybe bringing them back wouldn't be such a terrible idea. It wouldn't help poor people necessarily, but at least it could create some accountability. I'm not crazy about suggesting trickle-down justice, but if it works. :shrug:

Problem with that is one of the best defenses is blaming the crime on someone else.

KernelSlanders
May 27, 2013

Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.
I don't follow how that's a problem? You would still need standing to bring the charge, and trivial private prosecutions is precisely what grand juries are meant to prevent.

Obdicut
May 15, 2012

"What election?"

KernelSlanders posted:

I don't follow how that's a problem? You would still need standing to bring the charge, and trivial private prosecutions is precisely what grand juries are meant to prevent.

I mean say that if Richie McGee did a crime but he can blame it on Lucky Ducky, who was also there, by prosecuting him, that ain't cool.

KernelSlanders
May 27, 2013

Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.
Right, but if Richie wasn't the victim he doesn't have standing to prosecute.

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E-Tank
Aug 4, 2011
So this happened in Atlanta. It's a pretty big thing, they're calling murder, an actual loving murder. Cops are all in a tizzy, but at least the Coroner's doing his job.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/death-man-stunned-while-custody-ruled-homicide/ngXbt/

quote:

Records said he was handcuffed as he was repeatedly stunned and there are several other potentially explosive allegations.

An East Point Police lieutenant confirms two officers were still on administrative leave with pay as of early Tuesday afternoon in connection with Gregory Towns’ death in April.
A Fulton County medical examiner's investigator confirmed the manner of death has been ruled a homicide.

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