|
Shbobdb posted:Germany is a good example of a country with both physical and cultural borders. They even have a song explaining them! And at least one little international border dispute that's not gonna be solved anytime soon.
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2014 21:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 22:05 |
|
|
Carbon dioxide posted:And at least one little international border dispute that's not gonna be solved anytime soon. Heh amateurs.  (yes I know this has been posted before)
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2014 22:08
|
|
|
I guess maritime border disputes end up sitting around unresolved way easier than land disputes, just because nobody can build something saying "border is here" or post an army at the "border" or anything, so there's a lack of concrete violations to clash over?
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2014 22:24
|
|
|
Ditocoaf posted:I guess maritime border disputes end up sitting around unresolved way easier than land disputes, just because nobody can build something saying "border is here" or post an army at the "border" or anything, so there's a lack of concrete violations to clash over? There aren't until someone starts putting in oil wells in disputed territory.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2014 22:25
|
|
|
Venusian Weasel posted:There aren't until someone starts putting in oil wells in disputed territory. Exactly. There's natural gas underground there and Germany has been building wind turbines in the disputed bit of sea. However, there's a treaty saying: "We're not gonna resolve this right now but let's be friendly neighbours about it". Which basically means that whenever either country 'does' something in the disputed territory, some politicians of each country get together, have a talk, and decide to share responsibility or whatever works.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2014 23:22
|
|
|
Zohar posted:It wasn't, because like I explained in my post there isn't generally held to be a widely-accepted 'American ethnic identity' at all even today. (e: i.e. it wasn't the same, like you said) Construction of the Luxembourgish national identity sounds interesting, if you do remember the title of the book post it. Also, could you recommend a good overview of the history of nationalism and the mechanics of its formation? I'm looking for comprehensive over specific. I took a look at Caspar Hirschi's "The Origins of Nationalism: An Alternative History from Ancient Rome to Early Modern Germany" which you mentioned in the thread but I feel like I'd need to know the history of the subject and the standard interpretation to get the full benefit of reading Hirschi's reinterpretation. E: I over-complicated my request, I'm basically looking for nationalism studies 101.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2014 23:59
|
|
|
SaltyJesus posted:E: I over-complicated my request, I'm basically looking for nationalism studies 101. I took a History of Nationalistic Thought in undergrad, I'll see if I can find my old syllabus later. If you pm'd me your email address, I could forward the reading list to you.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2014 00:44
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:I took a History of Nationalistic Thought in undergrad, I'll see if I can find my old syllabus later. If you pm'd me your email address, I could forward the reading list to you. I'm taking one now! Imagined Communities, Benedict Anderson Nationalism, Anthony D. Smith and John Hutchinson Nations and Nationalism since 1780, E.J. Hobsbawm
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2014 02:21
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:I'm taking one now! Yes, I was about to recommend Anderson's Imagined Communities. Personally, I didn't care for Hobsbawm. Here goes my list of readings: For a quick overview, please take a look at, Intellectuals and Nationalism: Anthropological Engagements-- direct link in pdf here Horowitz, Donald. (1985) Ethnic groups in conflict Slezkine, Yuri. (1994) "USSR as a communal apartment...." in Slavic Review, Vol. 53, No. 2, pp. 413-451. Bulag, U.E. (2002) The Mongols at China's edge: history and the politics of national unity Mullaney, Thomas. (2009) Coming to terms with nation: ethnic classification in China (Review copy) Crossley, Pamela. (1991) A Translucent Mirror: History and Identity in Qing Imperial Ideology Hechter, M. (2000) Containing nationalism Fukuyama, Francis. (2011) The origins of political order Marx, Karl. (1843) "On the Jewish question" Weeks, T. (2003) From Assimilation to Antisemitism: The "Jewish Question" in Poland, 1850 – 1914 Weeks, T. (1996) Nation and State in Late Imperial Russia: Nationalism and Russification on Russia’s Western Frontier 1863-1914 Breuilley, J. (1993) Nationalism and state Smith, Anthony. (1987) The ethnic origins of nations Various readings in: Empire to Nation: Historical Perspectives on the Making of the Modern World Tilley, Charles. (1997) After Empire: Multiethnic societies and nation building Keating, M. and McGarry, J. (2001) Minority nationalism and the changing international order Gellner, Ernest. (1983) Nations and Nationalism You should be able to spot the Marxist critiques pretty easily  I've been doing research on state development in eastern europe pre-1780 and find Gellner's and Anderson's frameworks quite applicable to Jewish shetl life. I'm working with a friend to go through tax and salt records in Ukranian, Hebrew, and Yiddish, 1795-1897, and we'll be submitting our arguments in Canada later this year on the existance of multiple states, in the modern sense of developed state, which existed sharing the same geographic confines and both engaged in all elements discussed in Gellner and Anderson of a defined nation. E: Almost forgot a politically loaded map!  Jerusalem, 1912. See how many things you can that'd set off the I/P thread on a multipage derail My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Aug 25, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2014 03:09
|
|
|
Nice of them to allow space for a Jewish colony there in the lower left.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2014 03:22
|
|
|
What french regions will look like in the future EU Federation  
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2014 08:10
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2014 20:47
|
|
|
(Citation needed) What's the methodology behind this? I know it doesn't include Norman County, MN, named for Norwegian settlers, or Kittson County, MN, named for Norman Kitson, or any of the Olmsted counties, named after an Anglo-Saxon surname of Scandanavian etymology.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2014 21:19
|
|
|
3peat posted:What french regions will look like in the future EU Federation Elsass reunited with the German motherland at last.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2014 21:46
|
|
|
Kurtofan posted:Elsass reunited with the German motherland at last.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2014 22:10
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:(Citation needed) well I'm guessing its counties names after people from Scandinavia, not a generic name for a subset of Scandinavians or an Anglo-Irish Canadian or an English name tangentially related to Scandinavians.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2014 22:59
|
|
|
Rumda posted:well I'm guessing its counties names after people from Scandinavia, not a generic name for a subset of Scandinavians or an Anglo-Irish Canadian or an English name tangentially related to Scandinavians. Ok, how about Lassen County, CA? Unless the makers don't consider Denmark in 1800 to be part of Scandanavia, which just tells me its likely to be a map made by Swedes.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 00:17
|
|
|
withak posted:Nice of them to allow space for a Jewish colony there in the lower left. There was a Jewish Quarter in the city, it's unlabelled but it made up a significant portion of the southeastern part of the city, near the Western Wall. There are Jewish colonies outside the city because when Zionists began purchasing land to establish them it was mostly infeasible to buy within Jerusalem itself. Outside the walls it was much cheaper and easier to come to terms with the owners.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 01:10
|
|
|
3peat posted:What french regions will look like in the future EU Federation With Geneva, Vaud, Fribourg and a chunk of Valais considered part of Lémane, I see that one of the first actions of a united Europe will be war on Switzerland.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 02:03
|
|
|
Presumably Monaco and Andorra didn't put up that much of a fight.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 02:07
|
|
|
cheerfullydrab posted:Lothringen still under French oppression. The French even stole Saarland!
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 02:07
|
|
|
Jerry Manderbilt posted:The French even stole Saarland! They stole the entirety of Baden-Württemberg
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 02:34
|
|
|
Almost makes you wonder why they didn't go all-out and take Rheinland-Pfalz as well.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 02:46
|
|
|
I'm sure the Basques and Catalans would love to join up with France, the only country with a worse attitude towards minority languages than Spain.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 03:00
|
|
|
Not to derail but as an alsatian I'm amazed at how well the Kaiserreich did at convincing the world that Alsace was a right proper part of Germany. Fact is, it was never properly integrated and maintained a minority secessionist opposition party in the Reichstag for the duration of the German Empire's existence. Language rights or no, France was the preferred master. Even today the general idea seems to be "German wunderland till the nasty french came." German in the medieval sense yeah, but being part of the Bourbon monarchy for two centuries and experiencing the french revolution meant that alsatians had come to consider themselves french citizens, not ethnic germans. vintagepurple fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Aug 26, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 03:10
|
|
|
Jerry Manderbilt posted:Almost makes you wonder why they didn't go all-out and take Rheinland-Pfalz as well. Left Bank or Bust.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 03:30
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
Badger of Basra posted:I'm sure the Basques and Catalans would love to join up with France, the only country with a worse attitude towards minority languages than Spain.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 03:36
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:I'm taking one now! Add Nations and Nationalism by Ernest Gellner and you have most of the classics of the topic in a handy list. If you can read just one of those books, Imagined Communities is the go to book, but it can be a bit imposing as Anderson freely jumps from examples from various continents over the last two hundred years and if you're not up to date on, say, Indonesia (Anderson's specialty) you might find yourself confused at various points as to what's going on. Imagined Communities is one of those books where I think a lot of people misremember what it actually says. How many people remember that Anderson argued that nationalism's first wave was in the Americas, that he groups the USA with the Latin American revolts, and argues that the Europeans learned nationalism from the American example? Given that pretty much every treatment I've seen since that book falls back on the idea that nationalism emerged among the French in the Revolutionary Wars and spread to their adversaries, not many do. EDIT: Specifically, Anderson argues that colonial structures create a fishbowl where highly competent creole elites like George Washington or Simon Bolivar can rise to the top of their colonial structure, but only that far, and that they will never be invited home to London or Madrid to become a more senior figure. Couple a print culture where all the creole elites in the American colonies are reading the same documents and corresponding with each other and where all those creole elites realize that in a country of their own they would be running the show rather than subordinate to London or Madrid, and you have growing agitation to see your colony as separate from the motherland as a result of the conspiracy of thwarted ambitions of local creole elites who would rather be number 1 in an independent ex-colony than mere life as a colonial elite. Patter Song fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Aug 26, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 04:44
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Ok, how about Lassen County, CA? Unless the makers don't consider Denmark in 1800 to be part of Scandanavia, which just tells me its likely to be a map made by Swedes.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 05:41
|
|
|
Lycus posted:Either I'm misunderstanding the purpose of this map, or none of these places are becoming part of France. My impression is that it's more like: all European countries are being carved up into federal units of the EU, and these are the ones that wholly or in part were part of France. That's how I interpreted it as well. France isn't stealing bits of Spain and Germany. For all intents and purposes of this map, France, Spain and Germany are dismantled. But somehow we'd still get Switzerland on board with this lol.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 06:46
|
|
|
kapparomeo posted:With Geneva, Vaud, Fribourg and a chunk of Valais considered part of Lémane, I see that one of the first actions of a united Europe will be war on Switzerland. The First Pretty Borders War Can't be much of a world power if you got a hole in the middle icantfindaname posted:They stole the entirety of Baden-Württemberg I'm kinda wondering, if a foreign power annexed Swabia and Bavaria, would the rest of germans even bother resisting?
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 07:27
|
|
|
kapparomeo posted:With Geneva, Vaud, Fribourg and a chunk of Valais considered part of Lémane, I see that one of the first actions of a united Europe will be war on Switzerland. It's about time. Then there wouldn't be a strange ugly hole in every EU map. But Norway should stay independent, so that we can keep the northern dick. edit: hahaha ^^^
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 07:31
|
|
|
Average transport prices in Europe
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 07:38
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:I'm taking one now! You forgot the inventor of the word 'nationalism', Johann Gottfried Herder
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 08:01
|
|
|
Patter Song posted:Imagined Communities is one of those books where I think a lot of people misremember what it actually says. How many people remember that Anderson argued that nationalism's first wave was in the Americas, that he groups the USA with the Latin American revolts, and argues that the Europeans learned nationalism from the American example? Given that pretty much every treatment I've seen since that book falls back on the idea that nationalism emerged among the French in the Revolutionary Wars and spread to their adversaries, not many do. In fairness the book is also important for its theoretical aspect, perhaps more so than its historical discussion (this is at least the case for me, as I've utilised it in a Roman context).
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 08:34
|
|
|
3peat posted:The First Pretty Borders War I've been saying for a while that we would be better off by expelling the Bavarians so that they can try to out-fascist the Austrians, while we in the rest of Germany can return to sane politics.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 11:08
|
|
|
vintagepurple posted:Not to derail but as an alsatian I'm amazed at how well the Kaiserreich did at convincing the world that Alsace was a right proper part of Germany. Fact is, it was never properly integrated and maintained a minority secessionist opposition party in the Reichstag for the duration of the German Empire's existence. Language rights or no, France was the preferred master. I always wondered how Alsatians felt about going back and forth between France and Germany. Good to know they ended up with their preferred country.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 12:45
|
|
|
Writing system map: Southeast Asia sure has a lot of different scripts, feels like it's one for each country in certain regions and in some cases, several in the same country. Bonus, Writing Direction: 
Kamrat fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Aug 26, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 12:48
|
|
|
How can you have a writing system both right-to-left AND left-to-right? Are these Latin and Arabic alphabets used side by side in Malaysia? And why would that category not include Indonesia as well?
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 13:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 22:05 |
|
|
3peat posted:What french regions will look like in the future EU Federation  Euroregions amount to nothing but a thought experiment by an NGO whose maps and reports are sometimes used by nationalists and rightwingers to scaremonger.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2014 13:08
|
|
