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SynthOrange posted:Yeah I'm just surprised he's moping about it at all considering he unleashed Cthulhu to eat an entire alternate Earth, and that he didnt get an invite to the Cabal. He killed some Super-mopes who were fighting his friends (by unleashing an almost unstoppable monster that would likely have devoured the world) but once he got that out of his system, he found he didn't like the taste in his mouth. Basically, in a moment of crisis, he made an unforgivable choice, but when brought back into the present, and had time to think about it he couldn't do it again. His reluctance to pull the trigger makes the most sense out of all of them. He killed 5 (I think, I don't have the issue handy) good people and once he had control again wouldn't kill another 6 billion. Reed not pulling the trigger makes the least sense, since in Hickman's own Fantastic Four he doomed galaxies because it wouldn't allow him to spend enough time with his kids (and he's a terrible father, that's a weird thing to doom galaxies because you love your family, and still not be there for them).
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Aug 25, 2014 08:34
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I also think that there's some sort of parallel between Cabal/Ebony Kings and Illuminati/Ivory Kings. I'm trying to figure out the Ivory Kings' role in all this is. Swan hyped them up to be some sort of multiuniversal threat in the Infinity Epilogue, but the key that opens the multiearth library on Swan's home world is a gift from the Ivory Kings. At the very least, it shows that the Ivory Kings have made contact with another world without blowing poo poo up.  From a CBR thread. Could be something. (FF 600) vegeta dentata fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Aug 25, 2014 |
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Aug 25, 2014 08:40
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Hah, I posted that panel here a bit ago. The Destroyer being a Galactus would be pretty awesome.Happy Noodle Boy posted:Hickman planted the seed of incursions long ago???
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Aug 25, 2014 11:51
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Skwirl posted:He killed 5 (I think, I don't have the issue handy) good people and once he had control again wouldn't kill another 6 billion. I think Strange killed three of The Great Society; Boundless, the Rider and The Norn. Dr Spectrum went to the 616 Earth and was defeated by Black Bolt (Brevoort refused to comment on tumblr on whether she had died or not), The Jovian was killed or at least disabled by Namor and Sun God died with his planet.
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Aug 25, 2014 11:58
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Skwirl posted:He killed some Super-mopes who were fighting his friends (by unleashing an almost unstoppable monster that would likely have devoured the world) but once he got that out of his system, he found he didn't like the taste in his mouth. Strange unleashed it in a moment of crisis but he made the choice and opened the Blood Bible and prepared for the spell well before that.
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Aug 25, 2014 14:08
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In the very last issue of Hickman's FF, Franklin says something along the lines of he needs to leave because if the Universe senses two of him in the same place, she would freak out "especially with some events that are going to be happening soon, it implies untimely things". I don't have a good way to screen cap it right now. Someone else should post it.
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Aug 25, 2014 14:18
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Strange's refusal to pull the trigger wasn't done out of any sense of morality. In NA 21, he's basically saying "gently caress you guys for rejecting my beautiful Cthulu. Shove it up your rear end" except in a much more Strange-esque way. Of course now that he's back down to reality, he might feel a bit different.
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Aug 25, 2014 14:20
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If its an immature Galactus...maybe it's his teen daughter that Adam Warren wrote about. Ha! Also are there multiple Franklins? Wasn't it mentioned there is only one of him?
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Aug 25, 2014 16:28
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Gatts posted:If its an immature Galactus...maybe it's his teen daughter that Adam Warren wrote about. Ha!
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Aug 25, 2014 16:40
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Endless Mike posted:If that was mentioned, it was making GBS threads on decades of previous stories showing alternate Franklins including stories in F4. I might be mixing it up with Nathaniel Richards. Reeds father who had to kill all others for Kang.
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Aug 25, 2014 16:54
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notthegoatseguy posted:Strange's refusal to pull the trigger wasn't done out of any sense of morality. In NA 21, he's basically saying "gently caress you guys for rejecting my beautiful Cthulu. Shove it up your rear end" except in a much more Strange-esque way. Strange had already done it. He'd pulled the trigger with the cthulu summoning and they stopped him. It was going to destroy the other earth, it was probably going to kill him, probably going to destroy his existence completely. It was an act where he could do what was needed and would be punished for it. He could have pretended he was going to a noble death but they took that chance from him and now he's got to live with it. SirDan3k fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Aug 25, 2014 |
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Aug 25, 2014 16:58
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Gatts posted:If its an immature Galactus...maybe it's his teen daughter that Adam Warren wrote about. Ha! There's multiple Franklins, I'm sure. I don't think there's many or any on 616's Power Level. The Reed family is pretty god damned lucky because of the fuckery Nathaniel caused being the only remaining father although his trek to fix that may change things in the future. That said, I can't think of any Franklin being shown unless you count Marvel Zombies
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Aug 25, 2014 17:00
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:That said, I can't think of any Franklin being shown unless you count Marvel Zombies Days of Future Present had Franklin Richards from the Days of Future Past storyline.
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Aug 25, 2014 17:19
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Ultimate Fantastic Four said the only way that Universes can be saved is if Reed and Susan have a kid. The Ultimate Universe is trying to see if a Susan Ben kid can save it, and it seems that she can.
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Aug 25, 2014 17:38
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Okay so I finally got the time to make the post I wanted to about the New Avengers. I think I've already made my point about how I love reading the series, but I'm very much against what the main characters have been doing. And I still stand by that, even after I've read the arguments people here have put forward. I'm of the opinion that the Illumanti are wrong. They've been wrong ever since they got tunnel vision when it comes to blowing up worlds. They were wrong to fight with the Great Society, Namor was completely wrong to blow up a world that was begging for mercy and I think unleashing the Cabal to kill Earth's is likewise wrong. It's not just because it involves planetary-murder and genocicde (and let's not kid ourselves. What they are doing is murder. They are trying to dress it up in language like "doing the hard thing" or "sacrificing the few to save the many." but that is only because they don't want to accept the truth of what they are doing.) But it's also because I am also convinced that the path they are on isn't working at all. There are still so many things we don't know about incursions it's hilarious in a gallows humour kind of way. The biggest source of information is an admitted liar who was manipulating the team. The team hasn't come any closer to investigating the source of the Incursions. And by keeping the entire problem in-house they have almost certainly shut off other avenues of investigation. Plus, as the fight with the Great Society showed, they were prepared to use methods that they couldn't control. I mean when Doc Strange summoned that Cthullu monster, what was the end game. Was it going to somehow completely destroy the Society's Earth within like 3-15 minutes? Was it then going to stop, or was it going to eat the 616 universe too? And lastly I don't in any way accept what Namor did was right or brave or courageous or sticking to his morals. At best, you could say that he wasn't deviating from his plan, even when it was clear that he should. Namor started the fight with the Society (and it was him who launched the first punch because he didn't like the way the conversation was going.) he sabotaged any chance of a peaceful solution and he pulled the trigger at the end. The more I read the series, the more I'm convinced we are dealing with a Watchmen being done on a Cosmic Scale. I think that the Illumanti are operating on incomplete evidence and misinformation, and that the Incursion problem is being made worse by the fact that a bunch of Smart People have decided to act without any oversight. (I mean, three of the people are Kings of Nations that regularly say "gently caress you" to the rest of the world.) I am sure that come the end of this we are going to find out things that will ensure that the Illumanti were wrong in how they went about this all along. I'd like to just finish up by posting pictures from this weeks issue of Original Sins #5. (I don't know how you spoiler hide images so just don't look at the picks if you want to not spoil yourself on Original Sins, I guess. The issue is worth getting but basically old Nick Fury is torturing the Orb to find out how he got the Watcher's Eye to work. Along comes Dum Dum Dugan to talk some sense into Nick.  At which point Nick reveals that Dum Dum has been dead for Decades. This is just a LMD that Nick keeps bringing back to life so he has his best friend to talk to and argue.     Basically everything Dum Dum says here to Nick I think applies equally to all the Illumanti. The Question IRL fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Aug 25, 2014 |
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Aug 25, 2014 19:46
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Wouldn't the skrulls have figured out Dugan was a LMD? And I like how Namor didn't include DOOM in the cabal, he's going to be so pissed about that.
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Aug 25, 2014 20:23
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It's not like Namor went on a globetrotting adventure recruiting different members for the new cabal, it's made up of people who were all in the same building.
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Aug 25, 2014 20:28
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Starsnostars posted:It's not like Namor went on a globetrotting adventure recruiting different members for the new cabal, it's made up of people who were all in the same building.
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Aug 25, 2014 20:31
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Starsnostars posted:It's not like Namor went on a globetrotting adventure recruiting different members for the new cabal, it's made up of people who were all in the same building. This would make a great story. Namor's 11. The Question IRL posted:Plus, as the fight with the Great Society showed, they were prepared to use methods that they couldn't control. Given the scale they're facing against, poo poo they can't control are the only options they've come up with. Strange had had the blood bible at the ready since NA#3 or so. If the bombs didn't work, Reed/T'Chala have a variation of the ultimate nullifier ready. Beast (or the other universe Beasts) tend to opt with simply blowing up Earth. They've been so focused on keeping this poo poo under wraps that they fell into the trap of fighting the symptom instead of the problem.
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Aug 25, 2014 20:37
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Well if we're going to talk bombs, let's not forget that they have a countdown before their planet is destroyed too. Given infinite time I'm sure they would come up with something, but sometimes they only have 8 hours to solve a problem.
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Aug 25, 2014 20:45
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IUG posted:Well if we're going to talk bombs, let's not forget that they have a countdown before their planet is destroyed too. Given infinite time I'm sure they would come up with something, but sometimes they only have 8 hours to solve a problem. This is true. As a counterpoint, they spend the months they have before the eight hour deadlines building planet destroying bombs. Because it's more important to have that 250th bombs.
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Aug 25, 2014 20:53
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The Question IRL posted:This is true. As a counterpoint, they spend the months they have before the eight hour deadlines building planet destroying bombs. Because it's more important to have that 250th bombs. Today the mad scientist can't get a doomsday device, tomorrow it's the mad grad student!
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Aug 25, 2014 20:54
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Like real-talk time if anyone with more knowledge of the MU can answer: how common or viable is multi-universal travel? Reed had his bridge. I know the builders had the central web which was part of the super flow network which gave them multi-versal travel. (Avengers #7). We see those get destroyed (first glimpse at the Destroyer / aftermath of incursions?). So assume the Avengers/world/universe find out about the incursion: what can they do? Incursion themselves are inherently oppressive: it just sets 2 Earths in a collision course. We've seen one of the most powerful items in the universe repel one at the cost of the item itself. We know from the great society that this wasn't a fluke with the gauntlet, that poo poo just won't work more than once. Using Hickman's own stuff, we go back to Reed & The Bridge. A nexus in between universes. Same as the Map Makers HQ. The problem is that Reed's is a one side door and the other universes also need to build one (a constant all Reeds work toward) for you to go to them. My guess is the source universe doesn't have one of those. Either way, it wouldn't be a bad idea to use the bridge to communicate with other surviving Reeds and create a multi-versal effort to work and stop the incursions. When has more Reeds ever caused problems??? (  ). Hey we may even see Nathaniel and adult Valeria again! But going back to the map makers, they have obvious access to multi-versal travel via tagging and cataloging Earths. AIM had a gateway that could access this space. Banner knows about it so maybe that's how you deal with them, going straight to that source.Next question: why hasn't time travel been talked about? I know Age of Ultron hosed things a bit but there's still like 4-5 time travel stories going on now. The pressure of 8 hours can be greatly diluted if you can jump back and warn yourself when it's going to happen. My guess is that to stop the incursions they're going to have to basically come up with the opposite: they're going to have to CREATE universes. Franklin can maybe do this but I doubt that's a long term solution. Happy Noodle Boy fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Aug 25, 2014 |
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Aug 25, 2014 21:01
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Next question: why hasn't time travel been talked about? I know Age of Ultron hosed things a bit but there's still like 4-5 time travel stories going on now. The pressure of 8 hours can be greatly diluted if you can jump back and warn yourself when it's going to happen. My guess is that to stop the incursions they're going to have to basically come up with the opposite: they're going to have to CREATE universes. Franklin can maybe do this but I doubt that's a long term solution. My guess is that it'll be something about incursions stopping time travel from being possible, at least temporarily. That's just a bullshit explanation to make the narrative more dramatic, but hey, aren't half of time travel stories built around that? Or maybe Beast is just wary about using his time machine since, you know, the last time he did that he caused a small paradox by stranding a young version of himself in the present.
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Aug 25, 2014 22:11
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The Question IRL posted:let's not kid ourselves. What they are doing is murder. Lets not kid ourselves letting two universes die when you can save both and choose not to is murder.
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Aug 26, 2014 02:10
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This is maybe the 3rd or 4th time I've read through all of NA and I just noticed that, as Strange came back from the Sinner's Market and before he summons the Cthulu demon from the Blood Bible, Wong specifically tells him that "Somewhere in there, you are still a good man". I also noticed how similar many of the alternate Earths had similar circumstances surrounding Incursions. Even characters using the exact same phrases or being in similar situations. On one Earth, mutants were the dwellers who might make battling an Incursion difficult. In another, it was the Inhumans. I also cannot get over how Dr. Doom is doing a PSA on children getting a full 8 hours of sleep in Latveria.
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Aug 26, 2014 02:21
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Next question: why hasn't time travel been talked about? I know Age of Ultron hosed things a bit but there's still like 4-5 time travel stories going on now. The pressure of 8 hours can be greatly diluted if you can jump back and warn yourself when it's going to happen. My guess is that to stop the incursions they're going to have to basically come up with the opposite: they're going to have to CREATE universes. Franklin can maybe do this but I doubt that's a long term solution. Because time travel would ruin the story. I mean Hickman could have thrown in a line about massive fluctuations in the chronosphere or whatever to handwave it, but it doesn't come up for the same reason it doesn't almost ever come up in Hawkguy or Spider-Man or a million other comics. Most comics would be pretty terribly ruined if anyone tried to stick to a "logical" or consistent universe. notthegoatseguy posted:I also noticed how similar many of the alternate Earths had similar circumstances surrounding Incursions. Even characters using the exact same phrases or being in similar situations. On one Earth, mutants were the dwellers who might make battling an Incursion difficult. In another, it was the Inhumans. I keep wondering if that's actually meaningful as in a plot point or just meaningful as in symbolic. We've seen the "And I accept it." speech about a dozen times now. SirDan3k posted:Lets not kid ourselves letting two universes die when you can save both and choose not to is murder. The problem is not what Namor chose to do. Which is to say, you can at least construct a fair argument that he did the right thing in that scenario. The problem is every single choice that led up to that scenario. It was not a situation that fell into their laps out of the sky; it was something they knew about well in advance and possibly could have prevented through very simple things like "tell other people about the imminent end of existence", but chose not to. The problem starts waaaaay back when they started doing the hard men making hard decisions routine. They set themselves on the path that led to destroying worlds. Namor being the only one with the guts to follow through on it doesn't absolve him of going down that path in the first place. Tulul fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 04:43
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Tulul posted:The problem is not what Namor chose to do. Which is to say, you can at least construct a fair argument that he did the right thing in that scenario. The problem is every single choice that led up to that scenario. It was not a situation that fell into their laps out of the sky; it was something they knew about well in advance and possibly could have prevented through very simple things like "tell other people about the imminent end of existence", but chose not to. The problem starts waaaaay back when they started doing the hard men making hard decisions routine. They set themselves on the path that led to destroying worlds. Namor being the only one with the guts to follow through on it doesn't absolve him of going down that path in the first place. They had the means to see an infinite number of solutions. Presumably they had the chance to see the result of getting everyone in on the action.
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Aug 26, 2014 04:45
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I was reading Marvels the other night and the device Galactus used looked like the same thing Namor used. Can anyone confirm that, maybe with the original FF issues too?
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Aug 26, 2014 05:18
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Tulul posted:The problem is not what Namor chose to do. Which is to say, you can at least construct a fair argument that he did the right thing in that scenario. The problem is every single choice that led up to that scenario. It was not a situation that fell into their laps out of the sky; it was something they knew about well in advance and possibly could have prevented through very simple things like "tell other people about the imminent end of existence", but chose not to. The problem starts waaaaay back when they started doing the hard men making hard decisions routine. They set themselves on the path that led to destroying worlds. Namor being the only one with the guts to follow through on it doesn't absolve him of going down that path in the first place. I agree completely, they're all complicit in it, Namor is a god damned monster, but the rest of them are just as bad, and became that bad as soon as they decided to mind wipe Captain America and start building bombs. It's kinda weird that I love a book starring a group of  s so much. I take comfort in the fact that it's fiction.
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Aug 26, 2014 05:34
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Tulul posted:Because time travel would ruin the story. I mean Hickman could have thrown in a line about massive fluctuations in the chronosphere or whatever to handwave it, but it doesn't come up for the same reason it doesn't almost ever come up in Hawkguy or Spider-Man or a million other comics. Most comics would be pretty terribly ruined if anyone tried to stick to a "logical" or consistent universe. With people bringing time travel up, all I can think of is the graphic novel Squadron Supreme: Death of a Universe, where there's a big Galactus-like threat (a giant, white silhouette of a man) coming to seemingly destroy the Squadron's Earth. Hyperion asks Mastermind, the Lex Luthor analogue, for help. Between getting the respect he feels he deserves and his intent to prove how awesome he is, Mastermind accepts and tells him he'll meet up with him in a few minutes. Mastermind teleports in front of the Squadron and removes his helmet to show that he's been working on a solution to the problem for decades and is now an old man. His plan fails anyway and he high-tails it to another reality. It's a cool subplot I wouldn't mind seeing revisited, but there aren't really any genius characters in Marvel who could be spared in that sense.
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Aug 26, 2014 05:44
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Tulul posted:I keep wondering if that's actually meaningful as in a plot point or just meaningful as in symbolic. We've seen the "And I accept it." speech about a dozen times now. As someone else mentioned, the issue seems to be that the Illuminati, and every variant anti-incursion group they encounter all seem to be doing the exact same things over and over. I imagine that's why Cho shows up. He isn't your classic Marvel genius, so maybe he isn't stuck using the same old super-genius solutions. Franklin seemed to serve a similar purpose in Hickman's FF. On a side note, I'm surprised everyone seems to see Black Swan as some other-universe monochrome Emma Frost. I figured what with Reed being the one we've really been shown making contact with her, and having a brother, she'd be an other-universe monochrome Sue Storm.
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Aug 26, 2014 07:10
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Gavok posted:With people bringing time travel up, all I can think of is the graphic novel Squadron Supreme: Death of a Universe, where there's a big Galactus-like threat (a giant, white silhouette of a man) coming to seemingly destroy the Squadron's Earth. Hyperion asks Mastermind, the Lex Luthor analogue, for help. Between getting the respect he feels he deserves and his intent to prove how awesome he is, Mastermind accepts and tells him he'll meet up with him in a few minutes. Mastermind teleports in front of the Squadron and removes his helmet to show that he's been working on a solution to the problem for decades and is now an old man. Nitpick, but - Master Menace. (Also, high-five for being one of the only other people I've encountered that loves the Squadron Supreme books enough to remember Death of a Universe)
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Aug 26, 2014 08:22
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A lot of nerds feeling morally superior to and pontificating about super-heroes saving the universe ITT
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Aug 26, 2014 08:26
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Iggles posted:Has anyone seen Franklin and Rabum Alal in the same room together? You cracked the code  i'm so sorry not really
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Aug 26, 2014 11:05
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Maybe this has been brought up before but the whole incursion scenario reminds me of that long post some guy made about smashing together m&ms. Like, he'd open up each pack and start smooshing them together two at a time, discarding the ones that cracked, until he had only the strongest m&m remaining. The illuminati turning into monsters and the rise of the cabal make me think that rabum alal is doing that but with universes.
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Aug 26, 2014 11:55
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Fishylungs posted:As someone else mentioned, the issue seems to be that the Illuminati, and every variant anti-incursion group they encounter all seem to be doing the exact same things over and over. I imagine that's why Cho shows up. He isn't your classic Marvel genius, so maybe he isn't stuck using the same old super-genius solutions. Franklin seemed to serve a similar purpose in Hickman's FF. Not that Black Swan. In the issue where she's telling her story, there's a Black Swan Emma Frost and a Black Swan Deathbird. http://marvel.wikia.com/Black_Swans_%28Multiverse%29
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Aug 26, 2014 13:45
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TwoPair posted:You cracked the code I liked it. I think the swans are pawns of an Apocalypse that loves the ideas of the incursions and see them as the multiversal last man standing battle royal he always dreamed of.
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Aug 26, 2014 13:57
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First Bass posted:A lot of nerds feeling morally superior to and pontificating about super-heroes saving the universe ITT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem This is just the comic book version of this classic thought experiment. I like it. And I think it's great that it sparked such a busy thread.
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Aug 26, 2014 14:24
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Professor Dog posted:Maybe this has been brought up before but the whole incursion scenario reminds me of that long post some guy made about smashing together m&ms. Like, he'd open up each pack and start smooshing them together two at a time, discarding the ones that cracked, until he had only the strongest m&m remaining. The illuminati turning into monsters and the rise of the cabal make me think that rabum alal is doing that but with universes. The guy got coupons for free M&M's for his contribution to the breeding stock, so I think the incursions will turn out well.
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Aug 26, 2014 14:49
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