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The Question IRL posted:The other fact is the Incursion's (while unknown to the wide world) were known to the Illumanti, month's in advance. There were options open to them in the huge lead up they had before the Red Incursion happened, (the Retreat provision.) that they actively chose not to engage in. (Migrating Earth's population to another world and blowing up Earth.) Okay that would have maybe caused some problem of locking them out of finding a bigger solution, but by the Illumanti choosing to do that, they knew one of the only options they would be left with would be to become world killers. quote:So in summary Additionally, you had a meeting of two groups which by your definitions would both be world-killers, also qualifying as duress as they had deployed their weapon which necessitated their acting as world-killers.
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Aug 27, 2014 07:46
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thats pretty silly. The law doesn't give everyone the responsibility to stop a bad thing from happening, it just offers some protections to those who might do a crime to stop a bad thing from happening.
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Aug 27, 2014 07:56
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I like the notion that laws apply to a situation like this. Are people from other dimensions even considered to be protected by the laws of this dimension? Would killing an extradimensional 'invader' - or a whole planet of them - even be, legally speaking, illegal?
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Aug 27, 2014 10:48
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Well, logically the Marvel earth should have laws about such things since extradimensional beings and aliens were proven to exist decades ago, but that kind of logical societal adaptation to the fantastic elements would make it hard to write really dumb stories about congress being opposed to superheroes so I suppose there isn't a system in place.
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Aug 27, 2014 10:59
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Remember we're talking about the Marvel Universe populace who are shown to be completely selfish and ignorant about Superheroics. "Wahh the Thing destroyed my house when Galactus threw him on it. Then he used my car to hit Galactus in the face and saved the earth, but that was my car and my house and now I want him thrown in jail; also I'm suing him for everything I could possibly sue him for!" There wouldn't even be a trial, the denizens of the Marvel Universe would just burn them all at the stake in front of the White House.
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Aug 27, 2014 12:13
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The Illuminati represent their Kingdoms and People of Earth. They took the responsibility for them to make harsh decisions. When faced with the end of the world they decided selfishly to save their own souls. The people of Earth 616 had no say if they were willing to die and there was no vote. As kings and leaders they should have carried the burden and gone ahead with it. Namor made the call and it was the right one to give them a chance at stopping the thing all together. The Illuminati lost focus though. They deal with incursions but how much time have they spent looking for Rabum Alal and the source?
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Aug 27, 2014 12:33
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I have to wonder how tied up (big) Val might be in all this.
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Aug 27, 2014 13:07
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Bell_ posted:I have to wonder how tied up (big) Val might be in all this. She did want to build but I don't think causing the early death of the multi-verse was the goal. That said, the early death of the multi-verse is exactly the kind of "oops" a Richards could accidentally cause.
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Aug 27, 2014 13:21
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I'm glad to see my input into the topic has sparked so much discussion. I'll post some quick replies to people's posts, as I anticipate after today's Avenger's is released that will occupy most of the space.TwoPair posted:Sure they weren't "committing a crime" by having an Incursion, but really the other two definitions of your Self Defense cover the Illuminati's actions pretty well, protecting property and protecting other persons (property and persons referring to, of course, the entirety of Earth 616 and the people on it). By and large, the point I was getting at is that an actual "Stand your ground/ They came right at us" defence is likely to fail on the basis that Earth 4 Million plus and it's people didn't have any say over it's actions. They didn't chose to launch themselves at Earth 616, just like Earth 616 didn't chose to launch itself at Earth 4 Million plus. The problem is the Illumanti (and I suppose the Great Society too) are liable for their actions. TwoPair posted:Multi-page? poo poo, man, I don't have any law experience and I can field that one in a sentence. They will walk away because "All according to plan". It's pretty much that. And they are all rich as gently caress, so you better believe they will Lawyer up. Plus there is all types of interesting legal arguments one could employ. (Vandal Savage is a literal caveman. His poor Cro-Magnum brain is not capable of contemplating, much less understanding our societies laws. We can't hold him to account for his actions. And you'll get a bunch of Lexcorp scientists who will swear up and down that a combination of living underwater and wearing a Laser Beam helmet has rendered Black Manta unable to tell right from wrong.) Zachack posted:But this applies to the Great Society as well. They too chose to weaponize Earth by not employing evac/destruct, and are thus: The moral character of the other party often has little to no relevance in a criminal trial. It doesn't justify your actions because the other person was bad. If you kill a person, you can't rely on the argument "the other guy was a drug dealer, so it was totally fine that I killed him." If you want to make the argument that the Illumanti fealt they had to kill the Great Society, because if not they would kill them, that's a different argument but one not supported by the facts. (I re-read the issue and they make it plain again and again that they aren't going to blow up Earth 616.) Zachack posted:Not unarmed (they have a universe-destroying weapon), did throw the first blow (as did the Illuminati, or alternatively neither did), and did not use the retreat option. The very act of maintaining an incursioning Earth is a threatening act. I think it is also safe to assume that the Great Society, being JLA analogues, operated publicly (although I don't recall what if anything the issue said) which makes every citizen of that Earth culpable, while 616 does not carry that additional burden due to the secrecy. Again, I don't think the facts support that. Re-reading New Avenger's # 19, Wayne says that the Great Society doesn't have the power to destroy a planet (page 21 of issue 19), Sun God makes it clear that they won't try and blow up Earth 616 and even in issue 20 after they find the Planet Destroying Bomb their plan is to Destroy the bomb, not "use the bomb on Earth 616." The Great Society in this weren't armed, they didn't throw the first punch (that was Namor.) and the more I've re-read it, the clearer it is that they weren't going to blow up 616 when push came to shove. Sure had things ended differently and the Great Society blew up Earth 616, I would try to put them on trial for their actions. But I think they would have been in a better position as they didn't activaly cause the fight or bring the planet destroying weapon to the table. Gatts posted:The Illuminati represent their Kingdoms and People of Earth. They took the responsibility for them to make harsh decisions. When faced with the end of the world they decided selfishly to save their own souls. The people of Earth 616 had no say if they were willing to die and there was no vote. As kings and leaders they should have carried the burden and gone ahead with it. Namor made the call and it was the right one to give them a chance at stopping the thing all together. The Illuminati lost focus though. They deal with incursions but how much time have they spent looking for Rabum Alal and the source? Actually they don't. At best Namor, Black Bolt and maybe T'Challa have some claim to acting in their people's interest. But You can't really say that Reed Richards and Tony Stark speak for the entire Western/Eastern world. They've pointedly consulted nobody on this and have kept this secret so their actions won't be interfered with. They may think they are acting in the worlds interest, but if they were sure about that, they would be trying to do things more publicly. After all, if the Illumanti went public with their actions and the people of Earth 616 gave them a mandate to do what they've been doing, that would be a very different argument. But it's the secrecy and arrogance of one group deciding that they (and only they) are smart enough to solve the problem which is why I'm railing against them. Something else I've noticed, people talk about how the Illumanti had no other options open to them other then the Planet Bomb. Strictly speaking that's not true. So issue 1 has Panther find out about the first Incursion. Black Swan solves this one. Fair enough as no one knew about the Incursion. Incursion two happens about 8-10 days later. By this stage the Illumanti has assembled and spent their time doing research into the event, building the early warning system and gather the Infinity Gems. During the Incursion Tony Stark notes that the laws of physics change during an Incursion and potentially that could allow for other solutions. To the best of my knowledge, this point is never followed up on. (Issue of NA #3.) Cap stops that Incursion, Gauntlet breaks and they mind wipe Cap. Issue 4, Incursion three happens. An undetermined amount of time has passed, probably about a week. The Illumanti has figured out how to build planet killing bombs. Tony Stark has started building a Dyson Sphere. For the purpose of harvesting the sun's energy, but also in theory it can be used as a planet killing weapon. Dr. Strange starts his research into the Blood Bible and how to cast a planet ending spell. Here's the interesting part, Reed explains that T'Challa and him have come up with a way to "channel an ultimate nullifier through a vibranium barrel. Instantly vaporizing the Incursion Site of that world along with the surrounding one hundred square miles. There is some evidence this will interupt the event, but it will also...kill the user. Still, it might be worth it at triple the cost." I'll admit, it's not the most elegant solution but it is a viable option compared to full on blowing up an alternative Earth. Had they tried that with the Great Society they could have evacuated that part of Egypt (as it was, that section of the desert looked fairly empty.) and found someone willing to sacrifice themselves to blow up a part of one/both Earth's to save everybody. (Hell Sun God may have been able to survive the blast or Boundless could have out run it.) But no, strangely enough that option didn't get discussed. I guess the Illumanti didn't like the idea of maybe killing one of their own on this, not when they have all those planet killing bombs going to waste. Again, if the Illumanti were more open about this event they would have more options. People would gladly volunteer to be a sacrifice, but no that option hasn't been given. Also when Dr. Strange looked at selling his soul for Infinite power, a dodgy move but one that would potentially give them more options. Now he can't sell his soul because it's so stained, but why can't he try and find another volunteer to go do that? Oh right, because they need to keep all of this a secret.
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Aug 27, 2014 13:41
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PaybackJack posted:Remember we're talking about the Marvel Universe populace who are shown to be completely selfish and ignorant about Superheroics. "Wahh the Thing destroyed my house when Galactus threw him on it. Then he used my car to hit Galactus in the face and saved the earth, but that was my car and my house and now I want him thrown in jail; also I'm suing him for everything I could possibly sue him for!" Well I mean they should probably fix the house.
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Aug 27, 2014 13:59
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Captain America, you're a big dumb jerk. Take 5 minutes to explain what's at stake and we'll see if everyone still blindly follows you!
Happy Noodle Boy fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Aug 27, 2014 |
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Aug 27, 2014 14:27
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So wait -- Thor still has his hammer, which means that this has to take place before Original Sin #7, so why are Steve and Tony working together in that issue?
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Aug 27, 2014 17:07
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d00gZ posted:So wait -- Thor still has his hammer, which means that this has to take place before Original Sin #7, so why are Steve and Tony working together in that issue? Because don't worry about it.
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Aug 27, 2014 17:19
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d00gZ posted:So wait -- Thor still has his hammer, which means that this has to take place before Original Sin #7, so why are Steve and Tony working together in that issue?
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Aug 27, 2014 17:25
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I guess that's when the Cabal becomes very convenient, it helps Cap avoid the situation where they'll be too busy beating the poo poo out of their friends to notice an incursion is occurring, killing everyone as a result. Again, I see the moral point of not allowing the end to justify the means, but Cap doesn't address for one second what he plans to do to stop incursions from playing out. And that's very annoying as there's no morality in voluntarily ignoring the dire consequences of one's (in)actions. At the very least, he should tell everyone what the hell is going on and gather their opinions. Figuring a solution to incursions is more important than taking his friends out (not in a nice way). Then again, he's left with 50 Avengers who probably didn't finish high school, so it's not like they're going to figure poo poo. (Yeah, there's still Peter and Hank I guess)
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Aug 27, 2014 18:00
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Spock would have been so on board with blowing up Earths. Why did we have to get Peter back? 
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Aug 27, 2014 18:39
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PelvicNerve posted:Again, I see the moral point of not allowing the end to justify the means, but Cap doesn't address for one second what he plans to do to stop incursions from playing out. And that's very annoying as there's no morality in voluntarily ignoring the dire consequences of one's (in)actions. Well, it's not like they give him or the Great Society time to do anything. I know, time is short, especially in the latter case, but it's still going "Well what are you gonna do about itnothingthat'swhatIthought mindwiping/killing you now". Maybe they'd use technobabble science to trace frequencies from blah blah blah, or fly through the multiverse using blank spaces where universes used to be like footprints back to the source. Frankly, when they've managed to pull through every single time before it seems silly to think they can't. It's like that time Superman said to an Authority knock off, no nonsense solutions just don't hold water in a world of time travel and jetpack gorillas.
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Aug 27, 2014 19:39
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PelvicNerve posted:Then again, he's left with 50 Avengers who probably didn't finish high school, so it's not like they're going to figure poo poo. One of the Avengers is the living personification of the universe itself. The Illuminati are such a loving joke compared to what the Avengers have to work with it is insane.
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Aug 27, 2014 19:53
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Boogaleeboo posted:One of the Avengers is the living personification of the universe itself. The Illuminati are such a loving joke compared to what the Avengers have to work with it is insane. they just beat up superman!
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Aug 27, 2014 20:04
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Its really cool that now Steve Rogers is leading super heroes to hunt down Tony Stark. Hickman making civil war look dumb.
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Aug 27, 2014 20:05
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jsoh posted:Its really cool that now Steve Rogers is leading super heroes to hunt down Tony Stark. Hickman making civil war look dumb. Civil War was dumb.
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Aug 27, 2014 20:19
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jsoh posted:they just beat up superman! And if the incursions were a thing they could punch, the Illuminati might not be failing so hard.
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Aug 27, 2014 20:24
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Boogaleeboo posted:One of the Avengers is the living personification of the universe itself. The Illuminati are such a loving joke compared to what the Avengers have to work with it is insane. Isn't she still batshit insane? But yeah, the current expanded Avengers lineup is the biggest collection of powerhouses I've seen in a Marvel team, even more so during Infinity. I guess I'm a bit frustrated with specific parts of Hickman's writing on Avengers: while I absolutely love the scope and the direction it's taking, the delivery itself is a bit sloppy in the sense that Cap isn't very convincing and reminds me way too much of the Cap that started AvX: throw a punch first because it's right. I'd love to be sold on Cap's point of view, I even want to, because I certainly don't want to root for brainwashing and planet destroying. But "lol gently caress you, Kang strawman, I may be old but I'm righteous" and "okay guys, no discussion, let's go gently caress their poo poo up" are not very convincing stances, they read more like the kind of contagious stupidity that justifies dumb event books.
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Aug 27, 2014 20:53
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PelvicNerve posted:I'd love to be sold on Cap's point of view, I even want to, because I certainly don't want to root for brainwashing and planet destroying. But "lol gently caress you, Kang strawman, I may be old but I'm righteous" and "okay guys, no discussion, let's go gently caress their poo poo up" are not very convincing stances, they read more like the kind of contagious stupidity that justifies dumb event books. This whole arc is the constant repetition that Cap is one step further than any of the avengers archetypes that echo into the future; he is the living representation of hope and perseverance. He transcends his status as man out of time to being literally timeless. Hickman's telling us to trust in Cap, even though we don't have all the information yet.
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Aug 27, 2014 21:04
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hope and vaseline posted:This whole arc is the constant repetition that Cap is one step further than any of the avengers archetypes that echo into the future; he is the living representation of hope and perseverance. He transcends his status as man out of time to being literally timeless. Hickman's telling us to trust in Cap, even though we don't have all the information yet. Yeah, my beef is with the last part because I'm impatient as hell. I'd probably gloss over that in a trade. Thematically, I agree Hickman has built something huge: the very idea of the Avengers is so powerful and archetypical that it isn't really bound by space (see the Avengers worlds) or time. What you described just illustrates how he is the enduring moral pillar the machine should be built around. I'm complaining about the lack of concrete solutions and answers but the very solution might lie with Cap's and the Avengers' greatest quality: they're ideas, concepts and as such are much more powerful than any device anyone will ever engineer. That would echo his FF run: 616 Reed is special not because he's a genius but because he has an awesome family. I'd argue Morrison went for a relatively similar angle in his Batman run with Bruce's time traveling return that anchored the idea of a Batman deeply in Gotham's mythos and actual history. And that was badass.
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Aug 27, 2014 21:37
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Yeah I'd say complaining about there not being "concrete solutions and answers" before he has finished his run is a bit silly. I'm sure he'll pull it out.
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Aug 27, 2014 22:11
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Hickman is and always will be The Chartmaster, so I have faith in him.
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Aug 27, 2014 22:53
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Cap has an unbelievable team to take care of poo poo. This is an amazing roster when full and holds a lot of interest potential if explored with the right writer.
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Aug 27, 2014 23:03
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It's gonna be hilarious when Tony has to explain the Cabal to him. "See, well, uh, Namor decided to kill the worlds that we couldn't morally justify taking out to spare ours. He might have a Thanos on a leash."
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Aug 27, 2014 23:05
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hope and vaseline posted:It's gonna be hilarious when Tony has to explain the Cabal to him. "See, well, uh, Namor decided to kill the worlds that we couldn't morally justify taking out to spare ours. He might have a Thanos on a leash." I can't wait. "The bombs we built are missing and we're pretty sure Namor destroyed a 2nd world because we're all still alive" "Holy poo poo, Tony. BombS? You have multiple planet destroying bombs? Anything else we should know? "Maximus is probably with him" "Anyone else?" "A crazy chick from another universe that came with the first incursion and a Galactus herald from another universe are also missing" "Christ, Tony. Next you're going to say Thanos and his top 2 are also with him" "..." "Oh for fucks sake"
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Aug 27, 2014 23:17
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Gatts posted:Cap has an unbelievable team to take care of poo poo. This is an amazing roster when full and holds a lot of interest potential if explored with the right writer. It's kind of funny how Tony helped Cap set up the Avengers World team with the mandate to take down the ultra threats and have it turn around and bite him in the rear end like this. Especially because you need a team like this to take down the heavy hitters of the Illuminati.
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Aug 27, 2014 23:19
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Kangs reaction to Caps little monologue was awesome.
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Aug 27, 2014 23:20
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I hope Captain America calls up Cyclops just to gently caress with Beast.
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Aug 27, 2014 23:56
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Codependent Poster posted:I hope Captain America calls up Cyclops just to gently caress with Beast. Once they find out Strange has also gone rogue they'll just call Magick to deal with him. still so very bitter
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Aug 28, 2014 00:32
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Once they find out Strange has also gone rogue they'll just call Magick to deal with him. The multiverse is lucky as hell Magik hasn't been involved in this, because I think she'd get tired of everyone else's bullshitting around and just teleport every near-incursion into Limbo as soon as she got the chance.
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Aug 28, 2014 01:49
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Thanos just looked so happy in New Avengers at the end.
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Aug 28, 2014 02:32
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Leper Residue posted:Kangs reaction to Caps little monologue was awesome. The council of Kangs trying to save the multiverse was awesome, and I can't imagine any ending to this storyline where I won't feel like the resolution is forced to fit within the boxed narrative of "Cap was right". I'm on Kang's side. Hollismason posted:Thanos just looked so happy in New Avengers at the end. I'm pretty sure you'd have to invent a new word to describe the catharsis Thanos is experiencing wiping out an Earth with his Black Order 2.0.
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Aug 28, 2014 02:59
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First Bass posted:The council of Kangs trying to save the multiverse was awesome, and I can't imagine any ending to this storyline where I won't feel like the resolution is forced to fit within the boxed narrative of "Cap was right". I'm on Kang's side. I dunno. That scene seemed set up to make the Kangs look kind of dumb. Like, it's Captain America, right? He has two things. Two things that he does.
If you get completely blindsided by the second after he's just done the first, I'm not going to be very impressed with your predictions and analysis of dozens of other people's actions in the context of elaborate time fuckery, no matter how long you've been kicking around at the end of the universe.
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Aug 28, 2014 03:15
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First Bass posted:The council of Kangs trying to save the multiverse was awesome, and I can't imagine any ending to this storyline where I won't feel like the resolution is forced to fit within the boxed narrative of "Cap was right". I'm on Kang's side. I don't think I could ever buy a narrative of "Cap was wrong," unless maybe it was quickly followed up with "Cap quickly realized his mistake, and got on the right side." I don't think that's going to be the case here.
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Aug 28, 2014 03:21
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First Bass posted:The council of Kangs trying to save the multiverse was awesome, and I can't imagine any ending to this storyline where I won't feel like the resolution is forced to fit within the boxed narrative of "Cap was right". I'm on Kang's side. The resolution has always been pointing to "Cap was right" and everything that has been shown in regards to the incursions is a bunch of assholes using excessive force as their first and only option towards a problem they barely grasp. Dammit Who? posted:I dunno. That scene seemed set up to make the Kangs look kind of dumb. Like, it's Captain America, right? He has two things. Two things that he does. Also, this. Kang literally doing the fuckin' Snidely Whiplash-like "What did you do WHAT DID YOU DO" was hilarious at showing up how absolutely incompetent they ultimately are. But yeah. I really enjoy that Hickman addressed that running theme of people trying to take agency away from Cap under the pretense of knowing more. Well, addressed in the sense that Cap was pretty exasperated at how many times he's been waylaid by folks doing that under whatever pretense of greater understanding they have. It's also incredibly interesting that the Kangs pointed out that Cap successfully convincing the Illuminati to work with him to find alternate solutions still results in universal/multiversal destruction. The Rogue Planet asspull solution turning out to be a red herring is a really fun 'lil twist since it's so obvious but the other mentioned solutions they try are also very very strange in their implications. Like, if the Great Society was able to move their planet out of the way/phase their planet out of the way using their version of the Infinity Gems then why didn't the mechanical equivalent of the same solution work? Why does it specifically have to be the existing Earth that has to be destroyed in order to remove oneself from the incursion cycle? However, Cap actively going out of his way to attack the other side based on limited information seems like it'll ultimately result in a mistake too considering it's been a major aspect of the flaws found in all the villains of the Incursion storyline. edit: Also wouldn't the entire Cabal kinda be totally hosed if Starbrand or Hyperion were there? I can't actually recall if they were ever shown to be in combat during the Thanos portion of the Infinity event. Fereydun fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 03:24
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