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vigorous sodomy posted:I found it confusing and a little annoying how McNeil did Thousand Sons. If Magnus was so hellbent on warning the Emps about Horus, so hellbent he blatantly defied the edict, spent the lives of thralls to traverse the warp, destroy the golden throne project, earn his fathers ire AND have Russ sicked on him, why then would he sulk in his tower and let the woofs destroy them? If you're going to go through all of that to warn your dad that his favored son is going to ruin everything, why not take the opportunity of having another primarch and the better part of his legion speed you to Terra to tell him yourself? He goes and sulks because he realizes that he has in fact been wrong about everything, that he's done wrong, and now not only has he hosed himself and everyone he cares about with his own hubris and disobedience, but he can also presciently see what's going to happen to him and that there's nothing he can do about it. He also lowers the planetary defense shields because he realizes that a quick death is preferable to millennia of degeneration and suffering, but wimps out at the last minute.
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Aug 25, 2014 16:23
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PupsOfWar posted:they seem to be pretty inconsistent about it. There's also the dramatic irony present in that the Tau really don't understand the true nature of the universe at all. One of the big themes of the setting in general, but for the Tau in particular is hubris and so the tension created is when they'll realize that their hope and faith in things like science aren't actually that useful in the universe they live in. For instance, if they figured out that a single rogue human psyker is capable of destroying an entire planet, I expect their lenient attitude towards humanity would change pretty quickly. But it hasn't happened yet and that's where the tension is created.
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Aug 25, 2014 16:33
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EyeRChris posted:The wild card being that Omega is secretly loyal and is actually setting resources and scenarios that he could betray and destroy his legion from within. He has his own faction of marines he trusts that are in on the con. People keep saying this, but where was it written about?
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Aug 25, 2014 18:18
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I just want to point out that despite reading a decent amount of 40k books and Legion I only recently realized that Alpha Legion is a clear worshipper of Tzeentch and doesn't even know it. The whole Cabal of physics that tries to control the fates, but just makes more ripples, the many twisted and nefarious plots, with parts contradicting other plans. They don't seem to mutate, which is kind of odd, but the big T's not above changing it up. It helps they're not in the Eye as much. They're probably still my favourite legion, there's a couple of great short stories. I kind of liked the whole not worshipping chaos bit they had, but now it's obvious to me that the Great Changer, the planner of infinite plots, came up with to get the legion that doesn't trust anything and has all sorts of contingency plans to at least in some part support the heresy.
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Aug 25, 2014 18:35
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:People keep saying this, but where was it written about? I think it was in some of the short story collections, but I can't remember which at the moment.
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Aug 25, 2014 18:40
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I liked one of the Grey Knights short stories called Sacrifice. It cuts back and forth between the Knights and people who sacrificed something to aid the Knights.
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Aug 25, 2014 20:04
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The Omegon story is in Age of Darkness
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Aug 25, 2014 20:16
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Alpha Legion is stupid.
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Aug 25, 2014 21:33
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vigorous sodomy posted:Alpha Legion is stupid.
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Aug 25, 2014 21:38
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I jst hate their Illuminati, matrix architect puppet master schtick. The whole legion gimmick is like an over engineered spy movie with a dozen plot twists.
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Aug 25, 2014 21:51
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vigorous sodomy posted:I jst hate their Illuminati, matrix architect puppet master schtick. The whole legion gimmick is like an over engineered spy movie with a dozen plot twists. I think this is heavily dependent on who's writing them and thus how silly or forced it comes off as. However it's also funny because despite how clever they are (or think they are) they've also crawled so far up their own buttholes that they have no idea what they're trying to accomplish anymore, so long as they keep beating whatever opponents they've picked. Which is of course what makes them evil - they've lost all perspective on why they do things and are now doing things just to do them.
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Aug 25, 2014 21:55
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I do like how the "how do a legion of nine-foot-tall purple guys function as stealth/covertcy experts" was gradually resolved by "they don't, they just hang around in caves and get people to do that stuff for them".
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Aug 26, 2014 01:18
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maev posted:The more interesting thing than being Manipulated By Aliens is what exactly the Alpha Legion are about Post Heresy, its almost begging for a book set around 40k with the Alpha Legion at the helm. Whatever convoluted background the Alpha Legion have its likely that no one story will ever encapsulate the Legion, especially since its been mentioned a few times that the Legion is massive and operates completely independently of even itself around the galaxy. That's how I see the 40k Alpha Legion. They went too deep, lost the plot, and more or less fell to Chaos as a result... though a good few of them aren't even aware of it.
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Aug 26, 2014 01:27
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Fearless posted:That's how I see the 40k Alpha Legion. They went too deep, lost the plot, and more or less fell to Chaos as a result... though a good few of them aren't even aware of it. It's also the classic "Tried to use Chaos as a weapon against itself for the greater good, didn't work out so well" plot that 40k likes.
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Aug 26, 2014 01:31
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Cream_Filling posted:I think this is heavily dependent on who's writing them and thus how silly or forced it comes off as. Yeah I figure half the time the Alpha Legion is fighting itself. Which makes it perfect, IMO.
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Aug 26, 2014 01:35
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Alpha Legion could be great because half of the Alphas would be normal, or at least normal-ish humans. They were and are a huge part of the Alpha command structure and are incredibly loyal because the Legion is loyal to them (no matter what, they get their people out.)
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Aug 26, 2014 03:28
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Just finished Prospero Burns. I like the language and the writing style, and it has good character. But it still wasn't all that good. For all of the "Space wolves are really decent guys, not berserker jerks at all" message, there is a lot of that going on, and even more of bolter-porny "Wolves are the mightiest of all Legions, suck it chumps" on display. That's not what detracts the most from the book, though. It has some weird...dynamics as to how things happened and the effect they have...or don't have. It has some weird, contrived stuff happening to keep the plot going. No one noticed Amon appearing both in the council chambers at Nikea and his daemon double talking to Kasper and being attacked (without repercussions) by the wolves? He's not some random chump, he's Magnus' equerry. Likewise, there's pretty much no "Wow, we've been manipulated, turns out Horus was a traitor and we've had our hypocritical distaste for sorcery manipulated" moment or process. It's pretty much till "We nuked the traitors, it was grim but necessary and we kicked rear end because we always win". Along those same lines, Kasper never heard Bjorn's[spoiler] name? Across years of having him guarding him, sharing ships, telling his stories and sagas for the Rout? No one ever wandered over and said "Hey Skald, [spoiler]Bjorn, wanna do some Skyrim cosplay?"? It's not an issue of translation; even if he didn't understand the word, he was certainly hearing others say it. If you spent five years calling someone at your work Jake despite his name being John, someone would at least bring it up. Especially when you used his wrong name while doing lectures and presentations to the whole rest of the freaking company! Feels like too much of the book's bang is spent trying to go for a Shyamalan twist, and what it reveals about the legion is not that compelling. Going in-depth into World eaters took them from frothing madmen to tragic, broken warriors with no real shared culture getting by on brotherhood. A good look at word Bearers shows hints of them going from chanting fanatics to the zealous architects of humanity's spiritual future. and looking at the Night Lords takes them from silly dark knights with bat ears to terrifying monsters who may actually be worse than their chaos-worshipping buddies because of their psychotic fixation on revenge and fear. Scratch the wolves, and you get "They're, um, cool guys. Really viking all the way. They can take anyone on." Kinda flat.
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Aug 26, 2014 04:10
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Sephyr posted:Just finished Prospero Burns. I like the language and the writing style, and it has good character. But it still wasn't all that good. For all of the "Space wolves are really decent guys, not berserker jerks at all" message, there is a lot of that going on, and even more of bolter-porny "Wolves are the mightiest of all Legions, suck it chumps" on display. That's not what detracts the most from the book, though. It has some weird...dynamics as to how things happened and the effect they have...or don't have. Of course the wolves think they're the best. They're the ones saying so. Just like the World Eaters actually are frothing madmen but since the book is written from a perspective sympathetic to them you're willing to overlook that fact. You shouldn't just take the narrator at face value. Ignoring the obvious bias they have, keep in mind that they already know from the start that Kaspar is somebody's spy. The whole thing can be seen as one big performance to impress and also try to warn and teach to what they think is the Thousand Sons, the nerds who look down on them as dumb jocks, that the Wolves are just as smart as any other Legion despite not having any scholarly pretensions and also that there's ways to use things like psykers without going down the dangerous road of sorcery. Ironically, Russ is wiser than Magnus the scholar because Russ understands himself and his limitations. He's also wiser because he's acutely aware of how outside observers perceive him and manipulates his public image to his benefit, whereas Magnus and his legion have a serious image problem that ultimately costs them at Nikea and then again with the scourging of Prospero. Also (just in case you don't know), Bjorn literally means Bear. It would be more like you calling your co-worker Jose John and everyone just rolling with it because youre a foreigner, they know what you mean, and also they know you're actually a spy from a rival company. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 05:58
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PupsOfWar posted:I do like how the "how do a legion of nine-foot-tall purple guys function as stealth/covertcy experts" was gradually resolved by "they don't, they just hang around in caves and get people to do that stuff for them". Well, most of the time. Read Pariah for one of the exceptions. 
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Aug 26, 2014 06:19
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 Ship already! 
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Aug 26, 2014 08:41
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Cream_Filling posted:Of course the wolves think they're the best. They're the ones saying so. Just like the World Eaters actually are frothing madmen but since the book is written from a perspective sympathetic to them you're willing to overlook that fact. You shouldn't just take the narrator at face value. What? No. It's not just the Space Wolves saying it, which would make sense; it's the daemon-Horus. "[the Rout] is the only is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a legitimate military threat." Which means that the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and Ultramarines are just casual hurdles, I guess. Russ very much does not understand his limitations, seeing how he got played by the Warmarster, and says with a straight face that he can crush any of his brothers. He may not be a screwup on the scale of Magnus, but he's also human traits magnified. And the narrator in several of the other books steers clear of going "We're obviously the best". Heck, Heresy world eaters are almost on prozac, knowingly handicapped by poor discipline and chain of command, and relying on the savagery that will ultimately doom them to make things even. Night Lords are prod to be cowards half the time. Even the Iron Warrior books have them hold themselves as being as good as the others, however unrecognized. As for Bjorn, it's still lame. I knew it means bear. But if they were wary, why were the others freely offering up their real names? Why were they correcting the other words he switched in his sagas but not that name of the hero of said sagas? Getting names right is usually a big thing in oral cultures. They're big on proper terminology except when they aren't, or the sake of a silly twist.
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Aug 26, 2014 17:22
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Just finished Scars last night. Didn't offend me, but didn't amaze me either. Felt pretty flat overall. 
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Aug 26, 2014 17:54
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Sephyr posted:What? No. It's not just the Space Wolves saying it, which would make sense; it's the daemon-Horus. "[the Rout] is the only is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a legitimate military threat." Which means that the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and Ultramarines are just casual hurdles, I guess. Prospero Burns is an intriguing book, if only because of how much of a face lift the Space Wolves get. There's almost none of the good guy drunk vikings of 40k, rather replaced with a very dark and brooding serious legion who put up a bestial front in order to do the task of executing space marines and whoever else the Emperor wants. Space Wolves seem designed from the beginning to be the best at killing other space marines, while other legions won't even indulge the ~theoretical~ of it Space Wolves have already apparently wiped out at least one of the other unnamed Legions. There's a lot about Primarch's and their abilities but Russ's seems to be howling and making space marines (who know no fear) poo poo themselves. The Thousand Son's were one of the most dangerous legions in existence but apparently the Wolves with a few Custodes and Sisters of Silence are 'enough' to wipe the planet out. In terms of being a legitimate military threat its probably a reference to Russ being a deciding factor if left unmolested. Ultramarines are behind the Ruinstorm, Blood Angels were supposed to go to Khorne at Signus Prime and Imperial Fists are always going to sit on Terra. With the Space Wolves being severely hurt at Prospero, that's a lot less 'executioners' flying around and beating up Horus. For a series which is so very iffy on the absolute power of the Astartes and their Primarchs relative to each other, it was very ballsy of Abnett to just out and out make the Space Wolves the most killy of all. The hubris of sending 10 normal space wolves to guard the primarchs 'just in case' seems absurdly low, but apparently Malcador et al thinks its enough. Depending on the book everything can change, though. Kurze is an idiotic coward one book and, well, there's Unremembered Empire. 10 Alpha Legionaires can beat Guilliamen who held off a whole waagh for months or whatever.
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Aug 26, 2014 18:16
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Guilliman was unarmored, to be fair. He was ambushed in his pajamas basically.
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Aug 26, 2014 18:30
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Sephyr posted:What? No. It's not just the Space Wolves saying it, which would make sense; it's the daemon-Horus. "[the Rout] is the only is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a legitimate military threat." Which means that the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and Ultramarines are just casual hurdles, I guess. I am pretty sure Horus says that because at that time only the Space Wolves are the ones who are basically unaccounted for, and their loyalty is completely known. All the other "loyal" legions their location and what they are doing is more or less known to Horus. He thinks the Dark Angels are playing cat and mouse in the middle of nowhere with Kurze's legion. The blood angels are going to the middle of nowhere to go visit the demon system, the Ultramarines are basically stuck in Macragge, Dorn is sitting on Terra, etc. Did Gav Thrope recently leave Games Workshop? quote:In addition we are really excited to announce that Warpforged Games has joined forces with the legendary writer and designer Gav Thorpe http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/752412507/mark-of-war The game looks like a PC version of Warhammer Fantasy. Does this mean Gav Thorpe will no longer be writing for BL?
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Aug 26, 2014 19:05
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Sephyr posted:Just finished Prospero Burns. I like the language and the writing style, and it has good character. But it still wasn't all that good. For all of the "Space wolves are really decent guys, not berserker jerks at all" message, there is a lot of that going on, and even more of bolter-porny "Wolves are the mightiest of all Legions, suck it chumps" on display. I think that's the opposite of what the book was doing, though? It wasn't "Space wolves are really decent guys, not berserker jerks at all", it was "Space wolves are scary, cold-hearted bastards with no compunctions whatsoever about killing anyone and everyone,". Deliberate contrast with the jolly Space Vikings of 40k, who are surpassed in their decent-guyness only by the Salamanders. Their "most dangerous" status seemed adequately explained by their lack of any distracting interests or moral restraints. In Know no Fear, it was a really big, decisive deal that one guy had even contemplated fighting other Space Marines at one point, which was regarded as unthinkable. The Space Wolves contemplate things like this all the time, actually have experience doing it, and are prepared to do it again any time. It makes sense that they would hold "The Scariest Fuckers" status, in-setting.
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Aug 26, 2014 19:05
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PupsOfWar posted:"The Scariest Fuckers" Night Lords. It's their whole thing. 
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Aug 26, 2014 19:12
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VanSandman posted:Night Lords. It's their whole thing. well yeah, to non-compliant scrubs, sure, but I don't think the other legions have any particular respect for their prowess
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Aug 26, 2014 19:15
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I've always thought that the Wolves' face turn between 30k and 40k doesn't stretch credibility too much. It's a long time, and the complexion of the galaxy changes a lot; not just because of the Heresy either. Granted, if the wolves had gotten started on their 'gently caress authority' shtick earlier, they might not have spent quite so long swinging from the Emperor's (and, briefly but fatally, Horus's) dick. maev posted:The Thousand Son's were one of the most dangerous legions in existence How do you figure? True, they're psykers (and as such, dangerous to many folks on an ideological level if nothing else) but IIRC they were pretty consistently under-strength and never supremely martially powerful. Psyker powers' relative strength seems to wax and wane depending on what the story is and who's writing it, but they're almost never a win button.
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Aug 26, 2014 19:17
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JerryLee posted:How do you figure? True, they're psykers (and as such, dangerous to many folks on an ideological level if nothing else) but IIRC they were pretty consistently under-strength and never supremely martially powerful. Psyker powers' relative strength seems to wax and wane depending on what the story is and who's writing it, but they're almost never a win button. The reason why Chaos repeatedly cites the Thousand Sons as one of the most dangerous legions to them in the Horus Heresy, and the reason Horus had them neutralized as soon as possible, is specifically their warpcraft. Chaos warp-magic shocks and stuns every other legion when first encountered, but the Thousand Sons would go "Meh, your form is sloppy. Let's show you how it's really done." The Thousand Sons probably couldn't have been targeted with the Ruinstorm, for example, because they'd probably figure it out and counter it. The Ultramarines had no such sorcerous knowledge. Personally, my interpretation of the Space Wolves is that they never changed much at all between 30k and 40k. The difference is that the galaxy they exist in changed around them, and they come across very differently in the context of 40k versus 30k.
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Aug 26, 2014 20:58
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I seem to remember Abnett making a blog post along the lines of "I've never really liked the Space Wolves so I'm really looking forward to writing Prospero Burns", so it stands to reason that he'd end up heavily reworking them from the way they were depicted beforehand. Also Gav Thorpe left GW a few years back, though he's carried on writing for Black Library.
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Aug 26, 2014 21:44
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Cythereal posted:The reason why Chaos repeatedly cites the Thousand Sons as one of the most dangerous legions to them in the Horus Heresy, and the reason Horus had them neutralized as soon as possible, is specifically their warpcraft. Chaos warp-magic shocks and stuns every other legion when first encountered, but the Thousand Sons would go "Meh, your form is sloppy. Let's show you how it's really done." The Thousand Sons probably couldn't have been targeted with the Ruinstorm, for example, because they'd probably figure it out and counter it. The Ultramarines had no such sorcerous knowledge. Yep. If it had been Magnus at the closing of the Eternity Gate instead of Sanguinius then the fight with the Bloodthirster would of lasted as long as it took Magnus to cast a banishment spell. If the Thousand Sons had been loyal and on Terra the amount of demons faced would of been much lower. maev posted:Prospero Burns is an intriguing book, if only because of how much of a face lift the Space Wolves get. There's almost none of the good guy drunk vikings of 40k, rather replaced with a very dark and brooding serious legion who put up a bestial front in order to do the task of executing space marines and whoever else the Emperor wants. All of that "Emperors executioners" stuff is only from the Wolves themselves. No one outside of the Wolves ever mention it as anything other than boasts and bravado from the Wolves. It makes you sound cool and helps deal with the guilt of being told to kill your own brothers as that is how you were created but thats it.
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Aug 26, 2014 23:25
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Foxtrot_13 posted:All of that "Emperors executioners" stuff is only from the Wolves themselves. No one outside of the Wolves ever mention it as anything other than boasts and bravado from the Wolves. It makes you sound cool and helps deal with the guilt of being told to kill your own brothers as that is how you were created but thats it. I dunno, the Emperor and Malcador pretty much talk about it as matter of fact in Vengeful Spirit, and if they are de facto being the Emperor's executioners through deed then I guess they can call themselves something along those lines. Speaking of Vengeful Spirit, Horus has literally clicked his fingers and said "Exactly!" word for word twice now and I'm only at page 180ish. Mcneil why are you so hard to like. 
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Aug 27, 2014 00:25
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McNeil should only write mechanicu(m/s) stuff, I think.
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Aug 27, 2014 00:32
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maev posted:I dunno, the Emperor and Malcador pretty much talk about it as matter of fact in Vengeful Spirit, and if they are de facto being the Emperor's executioners through deed then I guess they can call themselves something along those lines. It's almost like Vengeful Sprit was written by a bad writer who doesnt understand the material he's referencing.
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Aug 27, 2014 00:48
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Sephyr posted:Just finished Prospero Burns. 
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Aug 27, 2014 01:50
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Holy crap that's great. I was going to point out the moist kitty growling, but the post was already big enough. As for Horus not knowing where the wolves would be...he had just relayed them the order to go kick Magnus in the teeth; he could literally point at a star chart and follow their progress. He may not know as much about them as he did about, say, the world eaters, but he knew about what they did to the other legions and what they could be trusted to do or not do. It's not like we're talking Alpha Legion here.
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Aug 27, 2014 02:26
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 As well.
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Aug 27, 2014 02:41
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Cythereal posted:The reason why Chaos repeatedly cites the Thousand Sons as one of the most dangerous legions to them in the Horus Heresy, and the reason Horus had them neutralized as soon as possible, is specifically their warpcraft. Chaos warp-magic shocks and stuns every other legion when first encountered, but the Thousand Sons would go "Meh, your form is sloppy. Let's show you how it's really done." The Thousand Sons probably couldn't have been targeted with the Ruinstorm, for example, because they'd probably figure it out and counter it. The Ultramarines had no such sorcerous knowledge. Foxtrot_13 posted:Yep. If it had been Magnus at the closing of the Eternity Gate instead of Sanguinius then the fight with the Bloodthirster would of lasted as long as it took Magnus to cast a banishment spell. If the Thousand Sons had been loyal and on Terra the amount of demons faced would of been much lower. Oh, okay, so dangerous on more of a strategic level is what you're saying? Yeah, I can see that 100%. amuayse posted:
I don't think I ever factchecked it against the actual lore but I remember a 1d4chan article listing the Ultramarines' actions during the Heresy (and maybe afterwards?) and it was basically "anytime anything important was happening, they were conveniently absent." Granted, they were sort of locked down at times.
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Aug 27, 2014 05:55
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Why is Russ' breath misting on a hot desert planet like Prospero?
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Aug 27, 2014 14:26
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