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Tannenberg was sort of inevitably going to be a disaster because you had two Russians of marginal competence who hated each other commanding separate armies which were at the end of their logistics tails. Also, radio transmissions in the clear.
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Aug 27, 2014 12:33
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Phobophilia posted:I can't help but wonder just how much of the peasantry's food surpluses could be readily concentrated into the stockpiles of the nobility. It wasn't only the peasants surpluses they took.
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Aug 27, 2014 13:17
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Also, kind of sad really Our World War didn't have enough of a budget to cover some of the actions of the Royal Navy, RFC and the Commonwealth Indian and Australian soldiers. I wish they got into more detail with how the Mark V tanks worked and operated and focused less on the stereotypical squaddie squabbling stuff. They even did the weird trope of the guy about to killed/horribly injured opening up to the young bitter one and talking about his family and how long he served. Still, It was a good job. Maybe in the future they might do more? Just leave out the rubbish shakey cams and off putting modern music.
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Aug 27, 2014 13:45
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Trin Tragula posted:100 Years Ago: Just trying to link up effortposts - quickly shoring up my memory on Wikipedia, the German naval forces at Tsingtao include the Scharnhorst and Gniesenau, under the command of Graf Maximillian von Spee, who manages to break out and tries to get home via the Strait of Magellan. EDIT: That's not a middle name, it's a preposition. LordSaturn fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Aug 27, 2014 |
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Aug 27, 2014 15:24
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Adding my meagre knowledge, Tsingtao was the pride of the German east asian colonies, so it was pretty well defended. Trenches, strongpoints on the hills around the port, decent number of soldiers. The Japanese were the majority of the infantry if I remember correctly, and they fought basically the same as in the Russo-Japanese war, with similar results.
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Aug 27, 2014 15:28
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Tsingtao is also China's second largest brewery today, founded in 1903 as Germania-Brauerei.  
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Aug 27, 2014 15:35
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LordSaturn posted:Just trying to link up effortposts - quickly shoring up my memory on Wikipedia, the German naval forces at Tsingtao include the Scharnhorst and Gniesenau, under the command of Graf Maximillian von Spee, who manages to break out and tries to get home via the Strait of Magellan. Von Spee's forces were actually at the Carolines when the war broke out.
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Aug 27, 2014 15:45
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Nenonen posted:Tsingtao is also China's second largest brewery today, founded in 1903 as Germania-Brauerei. Absolutely Pure you say... 
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Aug 27, 2014 15:49
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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LordSaturn posted:Just trying to link up effortposts - quickly shoring up my memory on Wikipedia, the German naval forces at Tsingtao include the Scharnhorst and Gniesenau, under the command of Graf Maximillian von Spee, who manages to break out and tries to get home via the Strait of Magellan. ...I'm sure I'm not the only person who knows a thing or two about World War II naval engagements and just went "WAIT WHAT" at all these familiar names being thrown around, right? The 1930s battleships Scharnhorst and Gneiesenau were of course named after their predecessors who fought in 1914; and the pocket battleship Graf Spee was named after those ships' admiral. This is a hell of an interesting story now I look into it; I was vaguely familiar with what happened at the Falklands, but not with what the hell the relevant German ships were actually doing there.
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Aug 27, 2014 16:32
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Everyone vaguely interested about WW1 should read "Dreadnought" and "Castles of Steel"
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Aug 27, 2014 17:31
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PittTheElder posted:Absolutely Pure you say... I was going to say, goddamn that logo. Then again, before they got big that the Nazi Party did spend a lot of time getting drunk in Bavarian beer halls and beating on student and factory worker communists.
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Aug 27, 2014 17:39
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Trin Tragula posted:This is a hell of an interesting story now I look into it; I was vaguely familiar with what happened at the Falklands, but not with what the hell the relevant German ships were actually doing there. They were the German East Asia Squadron, their only overseas naval presence, basically there to wave the flag of colonialism. When the war broke out, von Spee was very aware that he had to stay mobile, or he'd be pinned down and wiped out by the vastly superior British, Australian, and Japanese fleets in the area. So he took most of his ships trawling around the Pacific causing as much havoc as possible, coaling and resupplying in undefended allied island colonies, some of whom didn't actually know there was even a war on. Eventually von Spee realized he couldn't stay in the Pacific anymore, and I think decided to try a run for home? Hence the attempt to run past the Falklands and break out into the Atlantic.
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Aug 27, 2014 18:12
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Trin Tragula posted:...I'm sure I'm not the only person who knows a thing or two about World War II naval engagements and just went "WAIT WHAT" at all these familiar names being thrown around, right? The 1930s battleships Scharnhorst and Gneiesenau were of course named after their predecessors who fought in 1914; and the pocket battleship Graf Spee was named after those ships' admiral. Everything related to this little sideshow of the Great War seem fantastical, as if taken from an adventure book by some later Alexandre Dumas or Jules Verne wannabe. I was just reading on the siege of Tsingtao and heard for the first time of the exploits of Lieutenant Gunther Plüschow. He flew the single German airplane in Tsingtao and claims to have shot down a Japanese plane with his pistol, which if true would be history's first air victory. Anyway, before the port fell he left the kessel, crashlanded in a rice paddy and managed to sail to New York and from there to Europe, where he was taken POW after storm forced his ship to dock at Gibraltar in 1915. Nevertheless he managed to escape from England, a feat not repeated by any other German POW during either world war. After he returned to Germany he was at first interrogated as a spy, given how unbelievable his story must have sounded.
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Aug 27, 2014 18:18
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Nenonen posted:Everything related to this little sideshow of the Great War seem fantastical, as if taken from an adventure book by some later Alexandre Dumas or Jules Verne wannabe. I was just reading on the siege of Tsingtao and heard for the first time of the exploits of Lieutenant Gunther Plüschow. He flew the single German airplane in Tsingtao and claims to have shot down a Japanese plane with his pistol, which if true would be history's first air victory. Anyway, before the port fell he left the kessel, crashlanded in a rice paddy and managed to sail to New York and from there to Europe, where he was taken POW after storm forced his ship to dock at Gibraltar in 1915. Nevertheless he managed to escape from England, a feat not repeated by any other German POW during either world war. After he returned to Germany he was at first interrogated as a spy, given how unbelievable his story must have sounded. One of our many 'why the gently caress isn't this a movie yet' cases. Still waiting for the one based on those two Korean guys and their WW2 adventure.
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Aug 27, 2014 18:21
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SeanBeansShako posted:I was going to say, goddamn that logo. Pretty sure it was the Buddhist version as befits their status as an Asian/German beer company, considering that logo is both oriented the opposite of the swastika and significantly predates the NSDAP.
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Aug 27, 2014 18:22
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Pretty sure it was the Buddhist version as befits their status as an Asian/German beer company, considering that logo is both oriented the opposite of the swastika and significantly predates the NSDAP. Oh I know that all of that now, but still it is a pretty weird conicidence. Plus the mental image of of the twenties era Nazi's trying to find a logo and some guy going 'gently caress it' grabbing a bottle of the stuff and tilting it then Hitler stealing the idea is hilarious to me.
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Aug 27, 2014 18:26
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SeanBeansShako posted:Oh I know that all of that now, but still it is a pretty weird conicidence. Plus the mental image of of the twenties era Nazi's trying to find a logo and some guy going 'gently caress it' grabbing a bottle of the stuff and tilting it then Hitler stealing the idea is hilarious to me. "Hey you guys this beer is pretty good and they have a sweet logo!"
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Aug 27, 2014 18:34
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SeanBeansShako posted:One of our many 'why the gently caress isn't this a movie yet' cases. Still waiting for the one based on those two Korean guys and their WW2 adventure. The Koreans made it already. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuUR95-o_fw Gotta remember to watch it sometime. vvv oh hey it is, now I don't have to remember to go hunting for a torrent! Raskolnikov38 fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Aug 27, 2014 |
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Aug 27, 2014 18:40
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Raskolnikov38 posted:The Koreans made it already. Wait, I think I saw this on Netflix!
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Aug 27, 2014 18:58
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Nenonen posted:Tsingtao is also China's second largest brewery today, founded in 1903 as Germania-Brauerei. And today Chinese restaurants in Germany are selling it back to us as Chinese beer. (My mother is a fan of it.) Ghost of Mussolini posted:The western allies had actually expected the East Germans, either by themselves or on Soviet orders (as was the case), to have blocked off West Berlin much earlier. They also saw the wall as a great embarrassment to East Germany, which would score cheap propaganda points for the West and which would be seen negatively by most East Germans. The wall stopped the flow of people from the East to the West as well, which was a huge problem for East Germany, but also a problem for West Germany in terms of accommodating the refugees, so even that was a small plus for the west. The wall was mostly a failure in stopping the flow of people leaving for greener pastures as well. During the 80s the entire border was full of holes and a lot of people have relatives who fled over the border after the wall was built. Not even in Berlin the flow was fully stopped, it was more like slightly slowed down. On the other hand, the fortified border allowed the East German border guards to rack up an impressive death toll: 872 dead from beginning till' the end. (But to be fair, if only Berlin and the land border itself is counted, the death toll is only about 650 or something. Nearly 200 died alone in trying to escape over the ocean.)
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Aug 27, 2014 20:22
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Libluini posted:The wall was mostly a failure in stopping the flow of people leaving for greener pastures as well. I'm sorry, but what? The locking down of the border between east and west germany was absolutely effective. No it didn't create a 100% impermeable barrier that prevented anyone from getting over to the west. Hell, there's a pretty good argument that they never even wanted it to be absolutely air-tight, as anyone who was desperate enough to attempt it once it got seriously locked down was probably the sort of person who could be a real pain in the rear end if they chose to stay put and become activists instead. There's a nice tradition that was established of letting unreliable academics, artists, and other thinker-types go to conferences or on tours in the west and then refusing them readmittance as well. That said, it certainly was effective in dissuading attempts by your average citizen. Before the barriers were put up there was an absolute flood of people heading from the east to west, to the tune of about a quarter million a year in the mid-50s. There was also a slight flow in the opposite direction. You have your true-believer KPD members who were dismayed at how the party was getting sidelined in BRD politics, plus the general refugee sorting that was going on*, but that peaked at around 70k/year. The over-all rate of population exchange was very much in favor of people going from the DDR to the BRD. Once they locked it down that poo poo stopped, over night. We're talking a drop of 200,000 emigrating from the DDR in 1961 to 20,000 in 1962. If cutting a flow down by 90% isn't effective I don't know what is. Here are the GDHI stats on the issue if you want to look at them yourself. The political self-sorting that happened in the 40s and 50s is a very real thing and a really important phenomenon in understanding how German society reorganized after the war. edit: It's also instructive to look at what famously happened the moment they re-opened the border in '89. The only year that comes close to the numbers for that year is 1953, the year of the Berlin Uprising. *edit x2: I should emphasize that not all of the population transfer and movement within Germany after the war was political in nature, but a lot of it was. Central Europe in general, and Germany included, was such a refugee cluster gently caress after the war that it's hard to comprehend. The destructiveness of the war, both in terms of families destroyed and housing units flattened, was such that there was a lot of moving around by people who were just looking for surviving family to live near or with and other people - both disrupted and intact families - trying to find housing. Combine this with the massive inflow of refugees from the territory that Germany lost in '45 and the continued slow trickle of returning POWs and expelled German minorities that didn't really stop until the early 50s and it's a long time before you see people settle down permanently. That said, the general trend of whether people were going E -> W or W -> E is pretty obvious and politics had a goddamned lot to do with it. edit x3: Just because I'm a geek and rarely have a chance to pimp my own data, I've got some fascinating numbers on the general demographic trends visible in the make-up of Hessian elementary schoolchildren in the late 40s if anyone is interested. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Aug 27, 2014 |
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Aug 27, 2014 20:37
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Cyrano4747 posted:I'm sorry, but what? A sharp drop is still not stopping it, sorry. And you disagreeing with that minor point made you post all this? Well, at least it's informative, I'll give you that. Doesn't make it any less amusing for me to see we agree on everything but still disagree because of semantics. 
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Aug 27, 2014 22:50
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Libluini posted:A sharp drop is still not stopping it, sorry.  I bet you think there's a rampant problem with voter fraud in America too?
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Aug 27, 2014 23:09
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Cyrano4747 posted:edit x3: Just because I'm a geek and rarely have a chance to pimp my own data, I've got some fascinating numbers on the general demographic trends visible in the make-up of Hessian elementary schoolchildren in the late 40s if anyone is interested. That actually sounds really interesting. Were you looking mostly at the place of birth/origins of the children?
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Aug 27, 2014 23:11
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Cyrano4747 posted:edit x3: Just because I'm a geek and rarely have a chance to pimp my own data, I've got some fascinating numbers on the general demographic trends visible in the make-up of Hessian elementary schoolchildren in the late 40s if anyone is interested. Rabadh, where's the pike chat? I'll wither and die without a steady source of pike chat.
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Aug 27, 2014 23:38
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Saint Celestine posted:Everyone vaguely interested about WW1 should read "Dreadnought" and "Castles of Steel" I've heard Arthur Marder's stuff on the subject is considerably better, anyone know what the deal is with the historiography? Also, Hegel, do you have any idea of how demographics changed during the 30 years' war?
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Aug 27, 2014 23:50
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Libluini posted:A sharp drop is still not stopping it, sorry. And you disagreeing with that minor point made you post all this? Well, at least it's informative, I'll give you that. A sharp 90% drop is still the opposite of "mostly a failure". Note that the majority of those 20k probably left legally instead of sneaking across the border at night.
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Aug 27, 2014 23:54
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xthetenth posted:Also, Hegel, do you have any idea of how demographics changed during the 30 years' war? However, while records are spotty in many places, the recent The Hero of Italy makes use of Parman records to make some stab at figuring out how damaging the Thirty Years' War was in an area which didn't even see much combat. Spoiler alert: sex selective infanticide.
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Aug 28, 2014 00:00
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Libluini posted:A sharp drop is still not stopping it, sorry. Anything short of absolute total success is failure?
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Aug 28, 2014 00:09
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Meanwhile, Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War_II
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Aug 28, 2014 00:12
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Fangz posted:Meanwhile, Wikipedia: Welp boys and girls its official, now who wants to help build some new ABMs?
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Aug 28, 2014 00:14
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Fangz posted:Meanwhile, Wikipedia: Would it be in bad taste to post this? 
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Aug 28, 2014 00:23
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What a lovely name, like all sequals it will be over produced and not at all well written. I bet the original cast won't even return! Because most of them are now dead.
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Aug 28, 2014 00:23
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Fangz posted:Meanwhile, Wikipedia: lol quote:Cold War II or The New Cold War (February 2014 - Present) is the renewed ongoing tension, hostility and rivalry between the United States and European Union against the Russian Federation led by Vladimir Putin. edit: cant wait to read its talk page
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Aug 28, 2014 00:24
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Fangz posted:Meanwhile, Wikipedia: Doesn't Newt Gingrich hold the opinion that the Cold War and its proxies was World War 3 and the War on Terror™ is world war 4? What would that make this, World War 5?
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Aug 28, 2014 00:32
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ArchangeI posted:A sharp 90% drop is still the opposite of "mostly a failure". Note that the majority of those 20k probably left legally instead of sneaking across the border at night. I'm looking at the discrepancies between the official numbers in East and West and there is sometimes a difference of several thousand people per year. I guess those are the ones who went "illegally" over the border. But yeah, from the perspective of the slowly failing DDR it's a success. Without the fortified border, the DDR wouldn't have lived long anymore, after all. It's just that I've grown up with East Germany slowly breaking apart and then with it being reunited with the rest and then with the aftermath of trying to build up the ruins, so it's hard to see the wall as successful. It just prevented a clean death and turned into agonizing decades of misery. At least in my opinion, that is.
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Aug 28, 2014 00:33
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Frostwerks posted:Doesn't Newt Gingrich hold the opinion that the Cold War and its proxies was World War 3 and the War on Terror™ is world war 4? What would that make this, World War 5? Newt Gingrich is also of the opinion that the Belgian colonial occupation of the Congo was beneficial to the Congolese so take that with a grain of salt.
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Aug 28, 2014 00:35
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Frostwerks posted:Doesn't Newt Gingrich hold the opinion that the Cold War and its proxies was World War 3 and the War on Terror™ is world war 4? What would that make this, World War 5?
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Aug 28, 2014 00:36
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Does it really count as a sequel instead of a continuation? The biggest thing that's changed is just that there isn't a veneer of ideological conflict anymore, and it's just straight-up arguing over who gets what country.
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Aug 28, 2014 00:36
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xthetenth posted:I've heard Arthur Marder's stuff on the subject is considerably better, anyone know what the deal is with the historiography? Looked up Marder's stuff on Amazon. Dudes got a five volume, 2500 page set covering the Dreadnought to 1919. Goddamn. That is a lot of detail, considering Massie's two books cover like 1897 through 1919.
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Aug 28, 2014 01:11
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