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GlyphGryph posted:Because understanding that doctors are still flawed human beings doing a job is paranoia, right. Also, you have no special knowledge, you're just deciding not to trust me (you've already decided stuff like what you just described doesn't count as "special knowledge" so you can hardly use that.). And you still seem to believe that I said you should never trust doctors, so I think your memory is probably on the fritz to. It is when you say that in response to a week old converstaion with people asserting that doctors intentionally are prescribing the wrong things to people heedless of injury as a result of having free pens. And yes, you do have to be talking about having special knowledge when you're talking about knowing better about medicine enough to know when to somehow find doctors that you can "trust" instead of all the doctors you "can't trust". Interesting how you have no real argument and thus resort to this. You're so unable to read you think I hate drugs or legalization, no wonder you don't trust doctors.
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Aug 18, 2014 02:12
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Blindly trusting people is stupid, and blindly trusting medical doctors is especially stupid.
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Aug 18, 2014 02:36
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Blindly trusting people is stupid, and blindly trusting medical doctors is especially stupid. Trusting Tight Booty Shorts when he says something about agriculture is amazingly stupid.
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Aug 18, 2014 02:56
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I always trust my mechanic too. That's what they are trained for and wouldn't ever possibly over or under-fix a problem. They are professionals after all
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Aug 18, 2014 02:58
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Grognan posted:Trusting Tight Booty Shorts when he says something about agriculture is amazingly stupid. Cool, what thread is this again?
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Aug 18, 2014 03:00
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Dr.Caligari posted:I always trust my mechanic too. That's what they are trained for and wouldn't ever possibly over or under-fix a problem. They are professionals after all Statistically, mechanics are way more likely to be actually correct and people second guessing them to be wrong. Same goes for doctors. Even when they were actually wrong, the average person would be unable to tell that they were.
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Aug 18, 2014 03:08
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Dr.Caligari posted:I always trust my mechanic too. That's what they are trained for and wouldn't ever possibly over or under-fix a problem. They are professionals after all Yeah, so I'll just google some poo poo and try to fix my car, I'm guaranteed to do a better job than those so-called "professional" "mechanics" Being wary and open to skepticism is different than just reflexively dismissing everything that experts say. The impulse to do so is why we have all these fuckfaces not vaccinating their kids, denying global warming, etc.
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Aug 18, 2014 03:10
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You know, if lawmakers were listening to the majority of doctor opinion for the past few decades, weed would already be decreased in scheduling at the very least (since most doctors were already aware that it did not meet schedule I requirements, and at the most it could be stretched to schedule II if you were super dishonest). Edit: come to think of it, same goes for most, but not all, of Schedule I. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 03:12
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Nintendo Kid posted:You know, if lawmakers were listening to the majority of doctor opinion for the past few decades, weed would already be decreased in scheduling at the very least (since most doctors were already aware that it did not meet schedule I requirements, and at the most it could be stretched to schedule II if you were super dishonest). Maybe, but I think it's pretty obvious to any person that cannabis does not meet Schedule 1 requirements.
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Aug 18, 2014 03:48
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This discussion is totally off-topic.
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Aug 18, 2014 03:49
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edit: Xandu's post
Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 03:50
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e; I agree
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Aug 18, 2014 03:58
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Dragging things back on topic, and this is neither good nor bad news, but apparently nobody is bothering to pay the $25 fines for possessing weed in DC: http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/08/citations-for-marijuana-possession-littering-in-d-c-largely-ignored-by-violators-105963.html Not that it's a huge surprise since nobody pays their littering tickets either.  Still overall an outstanding change: DC previously averaged 100 marijuana arrests per week, actual arrests. It'd be better still with the original version, where public smoking was a $100 fine, that would've brought us down to only 14 arrests for the month. There are also apparently allegations that some of the people busted for "intent to distribute" might be just people warranting a ticket that the cops are trying to drag up to a higher charge (though undoubtedly small-level dealers are getting away with tickets too). The problem is that for the class of tickets that weed and littering fall into, cops can't ask for ID, so people give fake names and that's the end of it. We should probably find a better system before legalization, since it's going to be hard to sell folks on "no seriously potheads will not be lounging on the sidewalks toking up" if we have no actual method to give folks citation for use in public spaces. If I can't drink a beer on the sidewalk, other folks shouldn't get to toke. If I gotta use a paper bag, so do they.
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Aug 23, 2014 00:25
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In less-promising news, legalization is polling low in Alaska, at 44% vs 49% per this month's PPP poll. It was 48% vs 45% in May, but add in that Alaska is really hard to poll properly, plus due to either weird demographics or dicked-up polling, less that half of 18-29yr olds in Alaska support legalization. Hopefully it's a batch of bad numbers, since getting a red state to legalize would be pretty impressive. Oregon was polling at 57% pro-legal last month, so looking pretty good there. DC I don't think has had a poll since January, but it was 63% in favor then, plus in the last two months there's been just about no backlash against our sweeping decrim laws. My amateur opinion is that the only thing that could sink DC legalization is really low turnout, so hopefully GOTV drives, some light marketing and phone-banking, etc. will get us through. I think we also have "sense of inevitability" on our side, so I'm pretty optimistic. Of course, unlike Oregon, DC has Congressional hurdles to pass too, but if it gets voted in I think the ensuing brouhaha will be pretty enlightening. The Alaska campaign doesn't even have a drat Twitter and their website (http://regulatemarijuanainalaska.org/) is kinda meh. So I don't know if any of their low youth support is due to a failure to capitalize on social media. In whatever case, I'll go and chip them a few bucks, but you'd really think that Democrat partisans would be dumping cash on the campaign to get out the vote and by extension keep Sen. Begich's (D) seat. There's a good piece from Brookings showing how legalization could be to 2014 what anti-gay marriage was to 2004... except the Democrats seem to have minimal interest in using the initiatives to rally voters: http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/fixgov/posts/2014/08/20-harry-reid-marijuana-keep-the-senate-blue-hudak
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Aug 23, 2014 16:47
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:My amateur opinion is that the only thing that could sink DC legalization is really low turnout, so hopefully GOTV drives, some light marketing and phone-banking, etc. will get us through. I think we also have "sense of inevitability" on our side, so I'm pretty optimistic. Of course, unlike Oregon, DC has Congressional hurdles to pass too, but if it gets voted in I think the ensuing brouhaha will be pretty enlightening. This may be me jumping the gun, but I think that it WILL pass in November in DC. The problem is that Congress sure does love being Congress - so I'm basically convinced that it will pass, and then Congress will do some sort of BS that they did with the MMJ law and get some sort of technicality to delay it for as long as possible, because they won't have the votes to shoot it down outright.
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Aug 23, 2014 17:13
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SgtScruffy posted:This may be me jumping the gun, but I think that it WILL pass in November in DC. The problem is that Congress sure does love being Congress - so I'm basically convinced that it will pass, and then Congress will do some sort of BS that they did with the MMJ law and get some sort of technicality to delay it for as long as possible, because they won't have the votes to shoot it down outright. The main two ways are the Oversight Committee, and the Appropriations Committee. Appropriations is more subtle/sneaky, and that's what they used iirc to delay MMJ for about a decade in DC. It just requires adding a "btw you can't use any funds to change your marijuana laws" asterisk to the DC budget for the year. That's what got everyone ticked at Andy Harris (R-MD) for getting it through House Appropriations. But it's being watched closely, Senate shows little interest, Prez already said he'd veto any DC budget with an anti-weed rider, so we're ahead of the curve on that one. The other way is the Oversight Committee, but Oversight has only blocked DC law like four times since 1970-something, and again has to be both houses and the president to block DC laws, within a 60-day period. I'm expecting it to be contentious and much ink to be shed, but I feel good about it getting voted in, and I feel good about Appropriations shenanigans being blocked. The rest is going to be a real acid-test with the Fedgov. If this does somehow get blocked, it'll be a way bigger deal that dragging out MMJ was, and given that both mayoral candidates have said they'll enforce the will of the people if it gets voted in, I could see some strong reactions if the feds say no. Like maybe just not enforcing weed laws period, and/or DC politicians participating in public civil disobedience. The mayor and several councilmen deliberately got themselves arrested protesting Capitol Hill in 2011, and doing so could be a real coup for populist zeal. The absolute worst scenario is that it just doesn't get voted in, leaving the issue to just fizzle out for at least two years. Putting the screws to the feds early in the game will make things more colorful, and helps get a jump on a potential Repub president in 2016 who would be in a better position to block DC law changes. 
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Aug 24, 2014 01:02
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http://www.rmhidta.org/html/August%202014%20Legalization%20of%20MJ%20in%20Colorado%20the%20Impact.pdf Who wants some hilarious propaganda from the ONDCP? This is like a best-of from the last three years. Questionably characterized brain morphology correlation? It's there. Maureen Dowd hallucinating in a hotel room? She's there. The "stoned" driver who was also .268 BAC? He's there. It's like Anslinger toned down the racism and discovered Adobe Acrobat.
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Aug 26, 2014 05:38
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http://www.latimes.com/science/la-sci-medical-marijuana-20140826-story.htmlquote:Could medical marijuana be an antidote for the nation's scourge of fatal overdoses caused by prescription pain medication? A new study suggests the answer is yes, and it's set off a flurry of medical debate over the risks and benefits of making cannabis more widely available to patients. When researchers looked into it, they discovered that allowing patients access to medical marijuana substantially reduces opioid overdoses and deaths, likely by lowering opioid consumption in patients experiencing chronic pain. I've seen and heard lots of anecdotes regarding this phenomena. I had one patient who broke 14 bones in a motorcycle accident who was taking 210mg of oxycodone daily reduce his opioid intake to 20mg of hydrocodone daily after starting marijuana, and he was telling me that his quality of life and improved amazingly... he was much more alert and active, was impacted by fewer side effects and didn't have to live with the constant threat of withdrawal hanging over his head. Here we have a solid example of liberalized marijuana laws reducing harm, so much so that even NIDA and Kevin loving Sabet can't say anything bad about it outright (only that there are "too many uncertainties"). The timing of this publication works out pretty nicely for the efforts to legalize medical marijuana in DC and Florida. Spoondick fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 13:42
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I'm Kevin Sabet, drink a cup full of methadone and sleep forever. Too soon to tell! Too soon to tell! Too soon to tell! Too soon to tell! *high-fives grim reaper*
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Aug 26, 2014 14:48
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Spoondick posted:http://www.latimes.com/science/la-sci-medical-marijuana-20140826-story.html 210mg?!?  While that article is welcome news, I think we should be skeptical of being lured in to accepting that we have an "epidemic" of prescription pain killer deaths in this country. Even if you believe the CDC's number (which I don't) you end up with a number of fatalities about half that attributable to alcohol. The fear campaign by the CDC serves to reinforce current drug policies at the expense of actual suffering by patients whose pain could be treated in a more sane environment.
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Aug 26, 2014 14:59
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Still lets compare it to the epidemic of deaths from smoking cannabis.
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Aug 26, 2014 16:50
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KernelSlanders posted:210mg?!? 210mg of oxycodone daily isn't even that rare. I see 240mg daily pretty regularly and have one dude who takes 360mg daily. I used to see prescriptions for over 400mg daily, but that doctor killed too many people so he got arrested and lost his medical license. There are a lot of people who take high doses of oxycodone in combination with other opioids like methadone, hydromorphone, fentanyl, morphine and hydrocodone too.. not to mention benzodiazepines, muscle relaxants and hypnotics. The CDC's number of about 15,000 opioid overdose deaths a year doesn't surprise me, I've been in pharmacy for 8 years and I've personally had about 50 patients overdose and die that I know of. A large number of those overdoses are likely intentional. I guess you don't have to consider 15,000 deaths a year an epidemic, but for comparison, 40,000 women die of breast cancer every year and look at how much attention is paid to that. Chronic pain isn't a uniquely American phenomena. People suffer from chronic pain pretty much everywhere in the world, yet Americans consume about 40% of the world's opioid analgesics. About 40% of the people who die of a prescription opioid overdose do not have a prescription. It's pretty clear that American doctors are over-prescribing opioids. Doctors need to be more open to trying other treatment options (including marijuana) and start viewing opioid analgesics as a last-resort option. Patients need to have reasonable expectations about pain treatment. The goal of treatment should be to improve their quality of life, not to totally eliminate pain.
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Aug 27, 2014 14:10
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It's because of pill mills all over Florida, really. We supply most of the country's illicit prescription narcotics. Dealers will fly someone down here to go hit up 3-4 different ones, get as much as possible, and fly back. They then get to keep a small amount for themselves and the dealer sells the rest.
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Aug 27, 2014 14:31
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Mr. Nice! posted:It's because of pill mills all over Florida, really. We supply most of the country's illicit prescription narcotics. Dealers will fly someone down here to go hit up 3-4 different ones, get as much as possible, and fly back. They then get to keep a small amount for themselves and the dealer sells the rest. While the pill-mills in Florida received a lot of media attention, they've made efforts to curb them and now Florida is bow middle-of-the-pack in opioid prescribing. http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/p0701-opioid-painkiller.html Alabama, West Virginia and Tennessee are actually the highest in per-capita opioid prescriptions. Spoondick fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Aug 27, 2014 |
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Aug 27, 2014 14:59
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Unfortunately the main effect of cracking down on Florida pill mills has been a large expansion in black market heroin, at least with end users in central FL. As far as I've heard, there hasn't been much talk about combating this from a public health approach either, other than underground needle exchanges and naloxone providers, so it's a potential timebomb.
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Aug 27, 2014 16:23
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Tennessee is the place to be for drugs, man. We are in like the top 2 for marijuana, pills, and meth. Good stuff.
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Aug 27, 2014 23:08
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Spoondick posted:While the pill-mills in Florida received a lot of media attention, they've made efforts to curb them and now Florida is bow middle-of-the-pack in opioid prescribing. How do you have 143 painkiller prescriptions per 100 people? That's absurd. edit: I guess with patients having a few prescriptions at at time renewing them every few months, it adds up. That still seems like a lot, though.
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Aug 27, 2014 23:21
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So that kid facing a possible life sentence for pot brownies? Looks like there is actually somebody in Texas with some common sense, his case has been dropped: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...detail=facebook
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Aug 27, 2014 23:27
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Spoondick posted:It's pretty clear that American doctors are over-prescribing opioids. Doctors need to be more open to trying other treatment options (including marijuana) and start viewing opioid analgesics as a last-resort option. Patients need to have reasonable expectations about pain treatment. The goal of treatment should be to improve their quality of life, not to totally eliminate pain. The idea of 'overprescribing doctors' as an explanation for problematic drug use is a hangover from misguided supply side anti drug efforts. If drug abuse was positively associated with supply, we'd all be huffing gasoline. 'Overprescription' is a concept dreamt up by the DEA et al to shift the blame for the failures of prohibition and has become a convenient excuse to extend their powers of surveillance over patients and the medical profession. Yes, cannabis has a role in treating some types of chronic pain, but access to opioids remains absolutely vital. Treating patients presenting for opioid analgesia with greater suspicion and prescription drug monitoring programs are likely to have little effect on overdose mortality and serious unintended consequences: quote:Results: PDMPs were not significantly associated with lower rates of drug overdose or opioid overdose mortality or lower rates of consumption of opioid drugs. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1526-4637.2011.01062.x/full quote:A GRAVELY ill man, wrongly assumed to be an addict craving strong drugs, died in agony hours after being discharged from a NSW country hospital, a coroner has found. A deputy state coroner, Hugh Dillon, said while Michael Sutherland was in Bega Hospital's emergency department he was refused the pain relief he needed for his ''excruciating condition''. He found the hospital had failed to diagnose Mr Sutherland's life-threatening condition, failed to give him adequate pain relief and discharged him although he was clearly very ill. The coroner was delivering his findings on Thursday at the inquest into the death of Mr Sutherland, who had clung to his hospital bed begging not to be sent home. Mr Sutherland had told others that the staff thought he was a ''junkie'' who had been ''wanting drugs like an addict''. quote:Patients presenting to emergency departments from lower SES regions were less likely to receive opioids for equivalent levels of pain than those from more affluent areas. Black and Hispanic patients were also less likely to receive opioids for equivalent levels of pain than whites, independent of SES. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23797920 KingEup fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 01:13
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hangedman1984 posted:So that kid facing a possible life sentence for pot brownies? Looks like there is actually somebody in Texas with some common sense, his case has been dropped: It's funny(by which I mean tragic as loving hell) that a crime that potentially carries a life sentence was somehow dropped by the DA as "getting bogged down in the distractions". If it's so bad that it potentially merits a life sentence, how could it's being dropped not be a gross injustice unto itself? I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I never stop being enraged over the fact the drugs can get you put in prison for the rest of your life as though you were Ted Bundy or something. There's a 50 mile stretch of Oklahoma that stands between "A source of state tax revenue" and "spending the rest of your life in prison".
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Aug 28, 2014 01:18
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Xandu posted:How do you have 143 painkiller prescriptions per 100 people? That's absurd. Didn't Rush Limbaugh get caught with 5 active prescriptions at the height of his habit? Anyway many everyday people will have a painkiller prescription in a year - say 4 days of vicodin after a root canal - and on top of that you have people running cross-state-lines operations where they get people from other states upping the average too. So that'll easy get you over one scrip per person per time period in states with flagrant pill mills, especially when the lowest state is 52 per 100.
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Aug 28, 2014 03:18
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Spoondick posted:210mg of oxycodone daily isn't even that rare. I see 240mg daily pretty regularly and have one dude who takes 360mg daily. I used to see prescriptions for over 400mg daily, but that doctor killed too many people so he got arrested and lost his medical license. There are a lot of people who take high doses of oxycodone in combination with other opioids like methadone, hydromorphone, fentanyl, morphine and hydrocodone too.. not to mention benzodiazepines, muscle relaxants and hypnotics. The failure to isolate intentional overdoses is a substantial confounder in those numbers. Also, it's off topic, but I do think breast cancer is an over-attended to disease. Lung cancer kills more women than breast cancer does by a fair margin. Don't get me wrong, breast cancer is a horrible disease and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but from a purely public health perspective, one dollar on smoking cessation will probably save more lives than two on breast cancer research. Overprescription may be a problem (and is likely part of some broader problems in the medical profession in the U.S.) but that's something different from elicit use. Also, I'm concerned about acute pain in addition to chronic. I had a fairly major surgery a few months ago and you wouldn't believe the pain it was to get my 5/325 prescription filled, not to mention Bloomberg's if you get run over by a taxi you get 48 hours worth of pills and sent on your way rule. If you're poor and don't have a doctor or are still too injured after discharge to travel, tough titties. Anyway, my point was really just that we should be just as skeptical of claims of a prescription opioid epidemic as we are of claims that we have a marijuana epidemic.
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Aug 28, 2014 04:54
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Xandu posted:How do you have 143 painkiller prescriptions per 100 people? That's absurd. Max 30 supply per scrip in Florida, so one chronic patient on one medication is at a minimum 12 prescriptions per year.
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Aug 28, 2014 04:57
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Dr.Caligari posted:I always trust my mechanic too. That's what they are trained for and wouldn't ever possibly over or under-fix a problem. They are professionals after all My mechanic fixed a front suspension problem on my bimmer by tightening some bolts, for free, whereas the dealership told me the suspension was completely shot ($3000) and another place right next to them told me the ball joints and sway bar needed replacement ($1000). Hilariously enough, this is exactly the same sort of thing that happens when you go to medical specialists...except that the mechanics don't get as many bribes from muffler manufactures as doctors get free lunches from drug reps.
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Aug 28, 2014 05:16
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hangedman1984 posted:So that kid facing a possible life sentence for pot brownies? Looks like there is actually somebody in Texas with some common sense, his case has been dropped: Unless something radically changed, the DA dropped the felony charges but is still pursuing a misdemeanor.
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Aug 28, 2014 05:28
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I do wonder if felony charges would have been as much of a "distraction" if that guy had looked more...urban.
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Aug 29, 2014 04:04
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hangedman1984 posted:I do wonder if felony charges would have been as much of a "distraction" if that guy had looked more...urban. Probably just standard overcharging to force a plea.
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Aug 29, 2014 15:08
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hangedman1984 posted:So that kid facing a possible life sentence for pot brownies? Looks like there is actually somebody in Texas with some common sense, his case has been dropped: There are lots of people all over the country with common sense. But they also have the common sense not to have careers in law enforcement (or are screened out).
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Aug 29, 2014 18:50
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This is the kind of heat No on 2 is packing. http://www.floridatoday.com/story/n...juana/15062731/ quote:Holding a drink and slurring his words, Morgan gave an expletive-filled speech to a crowd of screaming, cheering young people. Pretty damning stuff! Or maybe kind of pathetic. turnip kid fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 14:39
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjTg-ogSYsU
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