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Mr Tastee posted:I'm worried about Ferguson discussion dying down. This is exactly what they want. We'll forget about it and nothing will change for the better. That's going to happen anyway. It's always what happens.
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Aug 28, 2014 13:58
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Mr Tastee posted:I'm worried about Ferguson discussion dying down. This is exactly what they want. We'll forget about it and nothing will change for the better.
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Aug 28, 2014 14:13
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Yes, its a bit of a shame the media only cared about the police militarization, but at least it got national attention and started a dialogue about Brown and institutional racism. My Facebook feed has a lot more police shootings and discussion about racism than usual, so I guess the impact of Ferguson is still having an effect.
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Aug 28, 2014 14:32
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I'm seeing a non-trivial amount of "Where's the outrage over [superficially similar case] where an unarmed white guy was shot?", the implication being "only black people riot." So I wanted to thank this thread for the convenient Joe Paterno riot stills. But MAN, people want to change the subject on this something fierce.
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Aug 28, 2014 14:37
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The police report(s) on the actual shooting of Mike Brown still haven't been released, correct?
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Aug 28, 2014 14:43
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Tibeerius posted:The police report(s) on the actual shooting of Mike Brown still haven't been released, correct? they were released, but basically empty. i think wilson invoked his garrity rights so this isn't super surprising.
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Aug 28, 2014 14:45
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Yeah, it was name, date, location, ___________________________. Just completely blank. http://www.scribd.com/doc/237538105/Michael-Brown-Offense-Report
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Aug 28, 2014 14:47
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MrBims posted:Yeah, it was name, date, location, ___________________________. Just completely blank.
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Aug 28, 2014 14:55
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Tibeerius posted:Is there any kind of timeline for when a more complete police version of events will be told? Perhaps when the police autopsy is finished? It just infuriates me that the police released the robbery information based on "FOIA requests", but when it comes to something that might make police look bad FOIA requests are conveniently ignored. I'm guessing slim to none for the chances of that. The prosecutor has all but said he doesn't want to try this case, and practically dared the governor to remove him if anyone wanted something different to happen. Given that mindset, I doubt he will be amenable to sharing the truth. It should also be noted that the prosecutor had the option of charging the officer without a grand jury proceeding, which he declined to use, so you can reasonably guess his desired outcome. The FPD, likewise, has shown no interest in releasing any information which shows them in any kind of negative light. We got 19 pages about a robbery that was so shady I doubt they could've convicted Michael Brown of stealing, and two blank pages about the shooting where multiple, independent eyewitnesses confirm that an unarmed, surrendering man was executed in the street.
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Aug 28, 2014 15:44
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SirKibbles posted:I'd expect to see alot more they attacked me in my vehicle if this happened. They have a loving union is it only useful for getting them off for excessive force? The cameras are on all the time the footage only get looked at if there's a complaint any hints of doing it otherwise is met with a harsh penalty.Higher ups try to gently caress them with it make it super easy to take them to court if it looks like they've been peaking Keep footage for about 5 years and take all the money you've been spending on stupid military toys and update your computer network. Are you aware that, most of the time, nobody has any idea what you're trying to say? 
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Aug 28, 2014 16:44
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Jai Guru Dave posted:I'm seeing a non-trivial amount of "Where's the outrage over [superficially similar case] where an unarmed white guy was shot?", the implication being "only black people riot." So I wanted to thank this thread for the convenient Joe Paterno riot stills.
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Aug 28, 2014 16:45
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:https://news.vice.com/article/el-paso-releases-video-of-cop-executing-handcuffed-man-wheres-the-anger To be perfectly honest this doesn't look like an execution to me. From the video it looks like he drew his weapon and then freaked and either impulsively or accidentally discharged it. It's still murder for sure though.
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Aug 28, 2014 16:59
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amanasleep posted:To be perfectly honest this doesn't look like an execution to me. From the video it looks like he drew his weapon and then freaked and either impulsively or accidentally discharged it. It's still murder for sure though. I think it counts as an execution if you pull out a gun and kill an unarmed, handcuffed man who is being pinned by a prison guard who actually moves out of the way of your shot. They claimed that a "taser would not be sufficient." Says who? Bigger and angrier people than him have been stopped by tasing and he was hardly wearing thick clothing that would prevent the prongs from sticking.
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Aug 28, 2014 17:17
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"a taser wouldn't be sufficient" because you see his negro strength and speed is simply too much to overcome
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Aug 28, 2014 17:42
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nachos posted:"a taser wouldn't be sufficient" because you see his negro strength and speed is simply too much to overcome Daniel Saenz was white.
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Aug 28, 2014 17:43
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chitoryu12 posted:I think it counts as an execution if you pull out a gun and kill an unarmed, handcuffed man who is being pinned by a prison guard who actually moves out of the way of your shot. They claimed that a "taser would not be sufficient." Says who? Bigger and angrier people than him have been stopped by tasing and he was hardly wearing thick clothing that would prevent the prongs from sticking. This is another example of police using their weapons as a tool of intimidation, deployed to express their power and gain control of a situation, and the inevitable result of using a deadly weapon in such an ignorant fashion.
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Aug 28, 2014 17:45
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chitoryu12 posted:Daniel Saenz was white. That'll teach me to only look at the grainy photo in the headline
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Aug 28, 2014 17:46
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nachos posted:That'll teach me to only look at the grainy photo in the headline I actually had some difficulty determining his ethnicity at first, because judging from some bodybuilding photos he fake tanned like a motherfucker. I had to look up his mugshot to get a clear view.
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Aug 28, 2014 17:58
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chitoryu12 posted:I think it counts as an execution if you pull out a gun and kill an unarmed, handcuffed man who is being pinned by a prison guard who actually moves out of the way of your shot. They claimed that a "taser would not be sufficient." Says who? Bigger and angrier people than him have been stopped by tasing and he was hardly wearing thick clothing that would prevent the prongs from sticking. I agree that it counts as an execution in terms of culpability. I just doubt that he was expecting to fire when he drew his gun. I think that all of the justifications that they are putting forth after the fact are complete bullshit, to be clear. It looks like he felt he lost control of the situation, (stupidly and inappropriately) drew his weapon, got spooked and fired. An "execution" to me is Murder 1. I don't think that happened here.
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Aug 28, 2014 18:12
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amanasleep posted:I agree that it counts as an execution in terms of culpability. I just doubt that he was expecting to fire when he drew his gun. I think that all of the justifications that they are putting forth after the fact are complete bullshit, to be clear. If this isn't Murder 1, it should be. He pulled out his gun and then lost his mind. Had he not pulled out a gun, he wouldn't have killed him. Pulling out the gun was the premeditation state that allowed the rest to happen, IMO.
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Aug 28, 2014 18:18
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What would it be if you meant to just threaten someone with deadly force and ended up killing them? Assume it wasn't in conjunction with another crime, like false imprisonment.
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Aug 28, 2014 18:21
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I'm outraged that there is no outrage! White on white crime must stop! Where are the white leaders when you need them?
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Aug 28, 2014 18:24
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temple posted:I'm outraged that there is no outrage! White on white crime must stop! Where are the white leaders when you need them? I unironically think the problems in America are mostly because of problem in our "white culture".
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Aug 28, 2014 18:30
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bassguitarhero posted:If this isn't Murder 1, it should be. He pulled out his gun and then lost his mind. Had he not pulled out a gun, he wouldn't have killed him. Pulling out the gun was the premeditation state that allowed the rest to happen, IMO. We have scales of crimes for purpose. Malice aforethought this is not. It does not mean that what he did was right or encouraged, but you have a very american approach of saying how actually every crime is the worst. This is voluntary manslaughter. At stretched, second degree murder. Holy gently caress, those are not light things without making them murder one. If you say that this is murder one, you justify the felony murder rules and the convictions for a perp for an officer veering off the road enroute to the call and et cetera that some nutjob prosecutors love going for. There are literally, absolutely literally, zero [0] police officers on this planet that will do this thing the next time because "their buddy ONLY got 2nd degree murder or voluntary manslaughter" and it was not enough of a deterrent. Arguing for the worst punishment (lol like "lenient" american sentences aren't harshly punitive already) for anyone, cops or not, is what is ruining the justice system. Or has it ruined already, whichever. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 18:32
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Boniface wrote a good article.The Rolling Stone posted:The drama in Ferguson owed much to the success of security theater over the last fifteen years. We started with the 1990s intensification of the War on Drugs, making enemy combatants of entire neighborhoods and acclimating us to the necessity of shock troops clearing streets of people convicted on sight for the act of standing still. Later, we vastly overreacted to the 1999 Seattle WTO protests and the greater paranoia of the Global War on Terror, in the process becoming too quickly accustomed to a total imposition of police power as a necessary response, even at the expense of containing public protest. We never entirely lose sight of the dangers posed to public safety—assigning the First, Fourth and Sixth Amendments to scattered cages—but the effect of the danger is like a lion in a zoo. It's only exotic if has the potential to be deadly, but we wouldn't countenance looking at it except through bars. Those paragraphs stood out, but the whole thing is worth reading. Insecurity State: The Politics Behind the Drama in Ferguson
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Aug 28, 2014 18:55
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chitoryu12 posted:I actually had some difficulty determining his ethnicity at first, because judging from some bodybuilding photos he fake tanned like a motherfucker. I had to look up his mugshot to get a clear view. All white bodybuilders fake tan like crazy for competition. The orange shows muscle definition better better than a pale complexion, from what I understand. You can tell when a male bodybuilder is a black guy because they're not orange the way all the white guys are.  Ronnie Coleman NWS for dude in a speedo. Real famous black bodybuilder
Magres fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 19:01
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Vahakyla posted:We have scales of crimes for purpose. Malice aforethought this is not. I have no idea what you think malice aforethought is but pulling out a gun, pointing it at someone, and pulling the trigger counts unless you've got specific mitigating factors you can point to. It's possible to make this a voluntary manslaughter case but murder is a much better tag for it. Voluntary manslaughter would be the stretch and looking at Texas law it doesn't really exist. Instead, he can argue - once he has been convicted of murder - that he caused the death "under the immediate influence of sudden passion arising from an adequate cause". If the defendant proves that, the penalty gets dropped to that of manslaughter (a second degree felony instead of a first degree felony). But he's still guilty of murder. The distinction between murder two and murder one is on a state-by-state basis and I doubt anyone has bothered to look up what that distinction is for Texas (where it's called Capital Murder and not Murder 1/Murder 2). None apply, this would be a regular murder.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:06
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evilweasel posted:I have no idea what you think malice aforethought is but pulling out a gun, pointing it at someone, and pulling the trigger counts unless you've got specific mitigating factors you can point to. It's possible to make this a voluntary manslaughter case but murder is a much better tag for it. Voluntary manslaughter would be the stretch and looking at Texas law it doesn't really exist. Instead, he can argue - once he has been convicted of murder - that he caused the death "under the immediate influence of sudden passion arising from an adequate cause". If the defendant proves that, the penalty gets dropped to that of manslaughter (a second degree felony instead of a first degree felony). But he's still guilty of murder. I, for some reason was thinking of another state, so sorry for confusion. In Texas law, which is far from just or anything, the closest that is seems to be the case of arguing it to a manslaughter, then. For Texas, the arguments about malice aforethought and their complexity is what made Texas change the definions of the state of mind. I do still stand by the moral argument that I made about always going for the harshest of sentences no matter what.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:10
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Dear white people, This is what life is like for black people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UXr9mG99JI Yours in Christ, this guy
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Aug 28, 2014 19:12
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UXr9mG99JI It is polite to quickly sum up links one posts so that going for the point is easier.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:13
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Vahakyla posted:We have scales of crimes for purpose. Malice aforethought this is not. I'm not a gun enthusiast, never touched one (had them put to my head and gut plenty of times tho), but I do know that you are never, NEVER supposed to pull out a gun unless you intend to use deadly force. That's the premeditation right there. If he didn't intend to use deadly force, the gun shouldn't have been pulled out. As far as giving people the harshest possible sentences, I feel that officers who are entitled to use deadly force when justified should be held to a higher standard when it is not justified. WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Dear white people, Literally it. In Ohio, white people can carry around guns as much as they please and freak the gently caress out if you tell them they can't take their guns somewhere. Yet somehow one black guy with a toy rifle somehow tormented this entire group of white people in Walmart into repeatedly calling the police. The cops showed up, took one look at him and thought "It's open season on black folks" and got themselves a Good Shoot. I live my entire life having to keep in mind that if there is anything, ANY thing that I am doing that could possibly construe to the police that I might be 1% dangerous, that I will be instantly shot and killed. And they would do it just because they know they could get away with it. I'm a filmmaker and I often carry around a monopod with my camera so that I can get good leverage with my camera while shooting. I carry this around knowing that an officer could see it, just shoot me, and get away with it by claiming he thought it was a gun. I have a pretty good feeling that I will likely be killed by the police one day, but I'd rather keep going on in the meantime rather than giving into that feeling of helplessness knowing that you could get killed just for pointing a camera at the police and then have your entire life turned into a "he was no angel" by a media that simply doesn't give a poo poo about black lives.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:23
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Dear white people, "I'll put a round in you so quick..." In other words, good thing they were filming or they would probably be dead.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:24
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The biggest juxtaposition is the guy who was shot and killed for holding an airsoft rifle in a store. Meanwhile, an open carry advocate was on the streets with a full auto rifle about a mile away happily talking to cops who were just concerned and asking him a few questions before letting him go on his merry way. I'm not going to spoil it by revealing the color of these two individuals, but lets just say you won't be shocked. Fuckt Tupp fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 19:26
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But giving harsher penalties has no proven effect on deterence. What is the rational, non-nutjob reason to want the "harshest" penaltes for anyone? There is always someone you can argue that needs to be held to higher standard, be it a parolee, bank teller, cop or practically anyone in a given situation. And if a cop needs to be held to a higher standard, why can't his word and testimony, and opinion, be of higher standard, too? Or his use of force be inherently justified because he is of higher standard? I don't think their opinions or decisions should be. They are regular people and they are not any better in making those decisions. We don't recruit supermen to be cops, but just people with okay grades and sometimes college degrees. By holding them to a "higher standard", you venture back in the "hero cop" territory where they are being publicly jerked off right now. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 19:27
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Vahakyla posted:But giving harsher penalties has no proven effect on deterence. What is the rational, non-nutjob reason to want the "harshest" penaltes for anyone? There is always someone you can argue that needs to be held to higher standard, be it a parolee, bank teller, cop or practically anyone in a given situation. And if a cop needs to be held to a higher standard, why can't his word and testimony, and opinion, be of higher standard, too? Or his use of force be inherently justified because he is of higher standard? Giving harsher penalties doesn't have an effect on criminals who are operating outside of the law, I imagine that's a completely different situation where you sign up for a job carrying out the law. Criminals operate out of necessity, the police operate out of concern for the law. But to be absolutely honest, people in Ferguson would be fine if Wilson was charged with manslaughter. They think *any* kind of legal punishment will act as a deterrant. That's how desperate they are for any semblance of justice.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:29
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bassguitarhero posted:Giving harsher penalties doesn't have an effect on criminals who are operating outside of the law, I imagine that's a completely different situation where you sign up for a job carrying out the law. Criminals operate out of necessity, the police operate out of concern for the law. And that is reasonable in both ferguson and in this jailhouse situation. And should be charged and sentenced. Certainty of sentencing is much more statstically effective than some arbitrary scale of "punishment". China has corruption as capital crime. Hence why China has no corruption. As a clarification, harsh penalties for anyone for anything are inherently wrong in my opinion. I don't agree with life in prison without parole nor do i agree with death penalty. For anything.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:31
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Vahakyla posted:I do still stand by the moral argument that I made about always going for the harshest of sentences no matter what. But this is the whole problem of the situation. There is no morality in defending current use of force practices in the United States. You're arguing about if the cop should get the harshest sentence and the other guy is dead. Literally the harshest sentence. But because the killing wasn't a sentence but an "accident" or "justifiable" you get to morally absolve yourself and pretend that you're not supporting a system that amounts to execution by Russian Roulette. When the cop pulls you over for DWB will this be the time his gun "slips"? Will this be the time that trying to show him your wallet "looks like a gun"? But lets worry if the police officer, after being charged, arrested, convicted, and sentenced *might* have to serve a few too many years in jail. Because, lets be real, cops get no legal punishment almost all of the time they kill people. Vahakyla posted:China has corruption as capital crime. Hence why China has no corruption. Also the point you're trying to make here is quite wrong, and meant for another thread. But you don't know what you're talking about with China. Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 19:31
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It's cute you all arguing about whether cops should receive harsher punishments when we all know that most will receive no punishment or reprimand whatsoever.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:32
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http://www.cjr.org/minority_reports/michael_brown_ferguson_media.php?page=allquote:Since Michael Brown’s fatal shooting on August 9, news coverage of the event and its aftermath has been followed by a second wave of analyses scrutinizing those initial stories for racial bias. When news outlets ran a particularly ominous photograph of Brown, wearing a red jersey, fingers splayed in possible gang signal (friends say it was his characteristic peace sign), African Americans took en masse to Twitter, using the hashtag #iftheygunnedmedown to post personal photographs—one sweet and one sinister—to show how the media skews narratives of black men.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:32
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Trabisnikof posted:But this is the whole problem of the situation. There is no morality in defending current use of force practices in the United States. You're arguing about if the cop should get the harshest sentence and the other guy is dead. Literally the harshest sentence. But because the killing wasn't a sentence but an "accident" or "justifiable" you get to morally absolve yourself and pretend that you're not supporting a system that amounts to execution by Russian Roulette. Just say revenge and bloodlust, I know you want to. Just don't argue that they are effective deterrents or moral things. I am not justifying the actions of the cop, learn to read. If I do not want his head on a plate, that does not mean I am soft on crime. Stop being so painfully the thing that messes up the justice system here.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:33
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