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Trabisnikof posted:Yes! Let's keep the cops from applying those dumb rules with a group of well armed people with enough money and spare time to patrol the street! We'll call it the Krappy Kop Klub and make sure that the only justice is our justice. The kops will have to be accountable to us and we're accountable to god! Well, really it comes back to Johnnie Cochran's "who polices the police?" Unfortunately his answer, "You [the jury] police the police," has become increasingly untrue in the last twenty years since he said it. Between forced plea bargaining in the face of draconian sentencing (Jaywalking becomes disorderly facing a month in jail for crossing a street against the light) and police simply handing out their own (often corporal) punishment with civil rights suits dismissed at the pleadings stage on qualified immunity grounds most issues never make it before a jury. It seems the jury system is an inconvenience our government has been steadily dispensing with. Consequently, we do need a new police-of-the-police. I don't think armed insurgency is really the best solution to that, though.
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Sep 2, 2014 22:05
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KernelSlanders posted:Well, really it comes back to Johnnie Cochran's "who polices the police?" Unfortunately his answer, "You [the jury] police the police," has become increasingly untrue in the last twenty years since he said it. Between forced plea bargaining in the face of draconian sentencing (Jaywalking becomes disorderly facing a month in jail for crossing a street against the light) and police simply handing out their own (often corporal) punishment with civil rights suits dismissed at the pleadings stage on qualified immunity grounds most issues never make it before a jury. It seems the jury system is an inconvenience our government has been steadily dispensing with. I agree the issue is a failing of policing the justice system. I just believe this is a problem within the power of the state to solve. Better public defense laws, requiring another arrest-able charge before resisting arrest is prosecutable, creating a federal law enforcement agency tasked solely with overseeing law enforcement, strict notification laws (e.g warning about the right of police to mislead or prosecutor's right to threaten with unrealistic charges), sentencing reform, and community building efforts are all real and meaningful reforms we could be advocating within our democratic system before we turn to
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Sep 2, 2014 22:39
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Trabisnikof posted:Yes! Let's keep the cops from applying those dumb rules with a group of well armed people with enough money and spare time to patrol the street! We'll call it the Krappy Kop Klub and make sure that the only justice is our justice. The kops will have to be accountable to us and we're accountable to god! I wasn't referring to efficacy as a policy, but in the simplest form of "cops are probably not so great at armed combat as to make violent resistance impossible" (although I would be even worse at it). I also don't think it's a good idea from a blanket policy perspective since I too think mob justice is a terrible idea.
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Sep 2, 2014 23:31
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Confusing accuracy with firearms is separate from the skill of entry and room clearing and armed combat, just to be clear. Even if cops shoot lovely, the basic tacticsl things are drilled pretty okay and that cohesion is not present at a hunting club, even if they are accurate against paper targets. It is absolutely ludicrous concept that the skill of marksmanship has something to do with a firefight. Spoiler alert: a lot of assault or mech infantry shoot worse than logistics troops. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 2, 2014 23:40
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Vahakyla posted:It is absolutely ludicrous concept that the skill of marksmanship has something to do with a firefight. Spoiler alert: a lot of assault or mech infantry shoot worse than logistics troops. If that's the case, then why is it that the more firefights an SF unit is expected to be in, the more they practice? Terminating in a group like Delta where marksmanship is, uh, kind of a priority. There is no tactics without marksmanship, there's just a lot of noise and holes in the walls.
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Sep 3, 2014 00:30
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SedanChair posted:There's just a lot of noise and holes in the walls. Yes, you are now at the basic and first step of infantry combat and the use of effective suppressing fire. Next up, proper flanking.
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Sep 3, 2014 00:32
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Vahakyla posted:Yes, you are now at the basic and first step of infantry combat and the use of effective suppressing fire. Next up, proper flanking. So are you backing away from your statement that marksmanship has "nothing to do" with a firefight?
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Sep 3, 2014 00:36
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This could happen to you. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2aa_1409611588  because liveleak is going all upload the beheading vidoes and crap. Florida cops are the worst cops these days, it used to be NOLA ones. Seems like all cops have "bad apples" etc.
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Sep 3, 2014 00:40
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SedanChair posted:So are you backing away from your statement that marksmanship has "nothing to do" with a firefight? Okay fine, very little. It was to this: "Anyway I think while well-organized cells of people would probably be very effective against most cops (given their terrible proficiency with firearms and being accustomed to most people cowering in the face of authority/force)," and the continuation of the common topic of how police and military are bad shots and thus the rascal rebellion will succeed due to the fact that "Billy Bob shoots better than any cop in the range".
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Sep 3, 2014 00:44
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Vahakyla posted:Okay fine, very little. The commanders in this PDF you posted in another thread seem to think it's pretty important: http://cc.army.mil/pubs/armymagazine/docs/2005/CC_05-05-reflexivefire.pdf 
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Sep 3, 2014 01:02
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SedanChair posted:The commanders in this PDF you posted in another thread seem to think it's pretty important: You only need a 70% rate of shooting of 20 rounds to be a cop in new york state.
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Sep 3, 2014 01:07
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On May 18, 2010, U.S. District Judge Sterling Johnson, Jr. of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of New York lifted a stay on the civil lawsuit brought by Nicole Paultre Bell against the City of New York. On July 27, 2010 a settlement was reached. New York City agreed to pay Sean Bell's family $3.25 million. Joseph Guzman, 34, who uses a cane and a leg brace and has four bullets lodged in his body and Trent Benefield, 26, two passengers in Bell's car who attended his bachelor party and were wounded in the shooting, will receive $3 million and $900,000 respectively in the settlement, for a total of $7.15 million. Paultre Bell said "I believe the settlement is fair, but the most important thing is that our fight, my fight, doesn't end here. No amount of money can provide closure." New York City Corporation Counsel stated "The city regrets the loss of life in this tragic case and we share our deepest condolences with the Bell family." The head of the New York City Detectives Endowment Association said he thought the settlement was a joke. "The detectives were exonerated . . . and now the taxpayer is on the hook for $7 million and the attorneys are in line to get $2 million without suffering a scratch." Guzman said the settlement did not change the underlying reality that black and Hispanic men's lives are not worth much in New York and that the incident is bound to be repeated. Cops are bastards, till the bitter end, and some are still on the job too. If you don't have a gopro camera, get one, if you are ever pulled over in your car etc. The first words out of your mouth around these people? "Am I being arrested". If they say no you are free to leave. Else, keep your mouth shut. The truth comes out and now the city you live in has to pay more in taxes to cover the police, who are still on the job. I don't like cops, that's a given, but i know the law better then them. That's telling.
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Sep 3, 2014 01:22
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ColdReaches posted:If you don't have a gopro camera, get one, if you are ever pulled over in your car etc. So all you have to do is immediately ask "Am I being arrested" to a cop who pulls you over for speeding and you get to drive away no questions asked? Its like you never have to actually get a drivers license, insurance, or even tags on your car. Just say the magic words. Why haven't a read this somewhere before. Feel like this would be big news. ColdReaches posted:I don't like cops, that's a given, but i know the law better then them. That's telling. Oh, never mind.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:24
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ColdReaches posted:The first words out of your mouth around these people? "Am I being arrested". If they say no you are free to leave. Else, keep your mouth shut. The truth comes out and now the city you live in has to pay more in taxes to cover the police, who are still on the job. Please don't give legal advice, especially if you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:47
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"Am I being detained or am I free to go?" is the better phrasing. Make them verbally acknowledge that you are being allowed to leave. This advice comes from http://www.flexyourrights.org/, IANAL, etc.
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Sep 3, 2014 06:53
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Kilty Monroe posted:"Am I being detained or am I free to go?" is the better phrasing. Make them verbally acknowledge that you are being allowed to leave. If your being pulled over then the answer would already be "yes your being detained" and the question would invariably be moot. At that point you would be wasting time of both the officer and yourself by not just having your required information ready to go. Then, once a ticket or a warning has been issued...
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Sep 3, 2014 08:14
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Untagged posted:If your being pulled over then the answer would already be "yes your being detained" and the question would invariably be moot. At that point you would be wasting time of both the officer and yourself by not just having your required information ready to go. Then, once a ticket or a warning has been issued... Yeah, in the specific case of being pulled over, it's obvious you're being detained and it's pointless to ask immediately. If at any point they're doing anything other than processing your information, telling you why they pulled you over, and giving you a warning or ticket, then you should ask. It's always a good idea to confirm you're free to leave before you actually do so. Other things to do when you're pulled over:
All old news to any cop thread regulars, I'm sure, but still worth repeating.
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Sep 3, 2014 11:21
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Kilty Monroe posted:[*]Get your information ready before the cop approaches, but if you can't find it before he does, wait and tell him you have to search for it so he knows you're not looking for a weapon. This is a mistake. Leave your hands on the wheel until they ask for your information and then say "My registration is in the glove box I'll need to get it" or whatever
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Sep 3, 2014 14:10
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Here's the thing. The cop has no responsibility to assist your am-i-free-to-go routine. "Am I being arrested?" is a phenomenally stupid question. If you've been arrested you'll have cuffs on and if you have cuffs on you are not free to go whether you've been arrested or not. "Am I being detained or am I free to go?" is even dumber since it's a compound question and the answer is "no." Even a more direct question, like "am I free to go" is almost never going to be met with a straight answer. You are in Schrodinger's detention. The cop will decide later if you've been being detained. Start walking and you may be arrested for resisting. Stand there and sue later  then it will have been a consent stop.Honestly, your best bet is to just cooperate, don't volunteer anything, don't admit anything, and if they ask something you're not comfortable answering say so and keep repeating that. Don't argue and don't explain why you don't want to answer that question. The chances that the cop has just randomly singled you out for bogus charges are phenomenally low and if he has, there's not much you're going to be able to do about it. You'll be better off just trying to be on your way as soon as possible.
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Sep 3, 2014 14:17
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No matter how much they'd like you to think so, until you ask to leave and are told no you are not legally being detained. Thus if you don't ask, and then leave immediately if allowed to do so, you are actually voluntarily staying. Never make an interaction with the police longer than it has to be. The longer they're around, the more likely they can come up with an excuse to search you or your property, and we're all well aware that it's child's play to find something that's sufficient to make you have to actually defend yourself in court.
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Sep 3, 2014 15:45
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Vahakyla posted:Confusing accuracy with firearms is separate from the skill of entry and room clearing and armed combat, just to be clear. Really? How much practice with combat tactics does the average cop get over a span of five years? I keep hearing that they hardly ever even spend time at a basic shooting range, so I'm a bit skeptical that they manage more time drilling tactics than keeping up on basic marksmanship.
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Sep 3, 2014 16:35
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Not talking about anything fancy, but simple unit movement and small unit tactics are taught in every academy whose curriculum I've seen. It's like a week or two of entry, situational awareness, room clearing, point defence and that's it. Basically the same poo poo that one learns on a boot camp in the military to somewhat effectively move together through a given area. It's nothing SF level or anything like that, but surely more than rascal warriors or people who served a long time ago. Those basics are gone through usually in the field when serving warrants into residences or when looking for a perp in a tight environment. Pretty simple stuff, nothing that anyone can't learn in two weeks and with a teacher. Yet, definitely not something that comes naturally or is the same as shooting paper in the range from a still position.
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Sep 3, 2014 16:47
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Vahakyla posted:Pretty simple stuff, nothing that anyone can't learn in two weeks and with a teacher. Yes, the results are plain to see.
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Sep 3, 2014 18:46
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Vahakyla posted:Not talking about anything fancy, but simple unit movement and small unit tactics are taught in every academy whose curriculum I've seen. Ever watch a no-knock video? These idiots don't know basic tactics like not muzzle sweeping each other or firing blindly into dark rooms. I -wish- cops got half the trigger time and ROE enforcement your average infantry grunt gets in OSUT. Here, go watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak Basically, you're full of poo poo, as seems to be the trend from you on any topic remotely connected to guns or police. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 18:57
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Liquid Communism posted:Ever watch a no-knock video? These idiots don't know basic tactics like not muzzle sweeping each other or firing blindly into dark rooms. I -wish- cops got half the trigger time and ROE enforcement your average infantry grunt gets in OSUT. Liquid Communism posted:Ever watch a no-knock video? These idiots don't know basic tactics like not muzzle sweeping each other or firing blindly into dark rooms. I -wish- cops got half the trigger time and ROE enforcement your average infantry grunt gets in OSUT. So the average police academy student is not more effective in basic concepts, along with his fellow students, than a regular joe from the street? What point of "fairly simple" stuff did you not get? You are now an expert because you saw a video where someone muzzlesweeped? Cool. How do you think a video of average gun owners clearing a room or doing entry goes? The police academies are shorter than Bct and AIT combined, and they are not dedicated to combat skills more than maybe 20 percent of the time. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 19:02
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Average gun owners aren't (theoretically) trained professionals who are, given their membership in a SWAT team, supposed to do entry and room clearance as one of their main job functions. Expecting a SWAT team to be able to handle the job they're trained, equipped, and funded specifically to do in a manner that does not resemble a Keystone Kops skit is a pretty low bar to clear, and yet they can't manage even that.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:14
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Liquid Communism posted:Average gun owners aren't (theoretically) trained professionals who are, given their membership in a SWAT team, supposed to do entry and room clearance as one of their main job functions. Expecting a SWAT team to be able to handle the job they're trained, equipped, and funded specifically to do in a manner that does not resemble a Keystone Kops skit is a pretty low bar to clear, and yet they can't manage even that. Well I mean, they are if they are planning to fight against cops in the Obama revolution. Which was the topic.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:45
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Vahakyla posted:Well I mean, they are if they are planning to fight against cops in the Obama revolution. Which was the topic. God I find it hard to agree with Sedan Chair on anything but you're just being deliberately idiotic now. The topic wasn't "hahaha regular gun owners are trained professionals who know how to clear rooms and poo poo" The topic in the "Police Reform (ACAB)" thread is police reform, where we just watched a video of police doing a terrible no-knock raid which they're supposedly trained to do.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:49
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A terrible no-knock raid where they killed a retired Marine for the crime of responding to having his door kicked in on a wrong address raid by going for his rifle.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:54
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One of the many problems with no-knock raid is that in typical fashion police have zero accountability. If someone gets shot "it was a stressful situation" or if a baby gets flash banged "sometimes bad things happen to good people." The fact that the police set up and control the situation ends up not mattering when they incompetently gently caress it up. However the homeowner, who by the intention of the no knock raid, is disoriented and doesn't know what's happening is expected to follow perfect rational procedure and not defend him or herself from the armed screaming men smashing down his or her door in the middle of the night or have a dog that barks. It's just another example of police being held to no standard and regular people having to act absolutely perfectly regardless of who starts the confrontation. The justice system is broken that this is the case.
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Sep 3, 2014 20:34
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I'd say there is a pretty decent case for saying that there should be no "no knock raids" at all.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:17
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Vahakyla posted:I'd say there is a pretty decent case for saying that there should be no "no knock raids" at all. At least if you don't live in a warzone
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Sep 3, 2014 22:28
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Liquid Communism posted:No matter how much they'd like you to think so, until you ask to leave and are told no you are not legally being detained. Thus if you don't ask, and then leave immediately if allowed to do so, you are actually voluntarily staying. Ok, so the cop asks you for your ID, you ask to leave, and the cop again asks for your ID. Your move.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:46
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KernelSlanders posted:Ok, so the cop asks you for your ID, you ask to leave, and the cop again asks for your ID. Your move. For safety's sake, immediately comply with all police directives. You can get together with your attorney at a later time and hash out whether or not those directives were lawful. It's good to assert your rights, but you have to be alive and not brain-damaged in order to assert them.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:50
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You can say "I know the law" all you want, but the likelihood of you being up on not only state laws but also county, city, town, or special district laws for any place you may visit is pretty small. You may think you've done nothing wrong, but it turns out you've crossed in to a new jurisdiction. Your best option is to be polite and comply with instructions and if you feel wronged consult with an attorney later.
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Sep 4, 2014 00:48
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Liquid Communism posted:A terrible no-knock raid where they killed a retired Marine for the crime of responding to having his door kicked in on a wrong address raid by going for his rifle.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:49
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Hence why somekind of announce-and-hold requirement would be cool for serving warrants, requiring for example a full minute before entry.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:52
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JohnClark posted:The worst part about that raid was that it was not technically a "no-knock" raid. It's difficult to tell exactly because the helmet cam that's recording belongs to a guy who's inside a vehicle, but it sounds like at about :20 or so the cops start shouting. At :28 one of them lightly knocks a few times, and then at :34 a flashbang goes off, followed by the door being rammed at :35. Even if we grant that it's reasonable to expect someone to hear shouting from outside their door and react to it appropriately (which is, I think, unreasonable) that means the guy in the house had, at most, 15 seconds to respond. If we instead take the time of the first knock as starting the clock so to speak, he had 7 seconds to respond. The supreme court and various lower courts have so eviscerated the knock-and-announce requirements that this is considered appropriate procedure, and it requires absolutely no special permission from a judge, any standard search warrant could potentially be executed in this manner and claim to have met the requirement to knock and announce. See, if someone is banging on my door and shouting, I sure as hell won't be up and out of my room ready to answer the door in 15~ seconds. More than likely I'll be disoriented and think someone's breaking in.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:53
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Vahakyla posted:Hence why somekind of announce-and-hold requirement would be cool for serving warrants, requiring for example a full minute before entry. But they'll flush the evidence! Throw a flashbang in the window to stun them and keep them from going into flush mode!
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Sep 4, 2014 03:00
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SedanChair posted:But they'll flush the evidence! Throw a flashbang in the window to stun them and keep them from going into flush mode! A thing actually that I have heard from a bunch of people where "the cost is a couple of lives and wrong addresses here and there, but the important part is that they don't get to flush the drugs. So an even trade". Not much I can say to that.
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Sep 4, 2014 03:06
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