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AlphaDog posted:In a world where learn cantrips and first-level spells, as well as crossbow, staff, etc is equivalent to learn all armour and weapons... Considering that you need to be just as intelligent to learn to shoot a fireball, as you need to fight defensively, no reason.
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Sep 3, 2014 02:48
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Serdain posted:
Isn't this exactly why it was possible to have a godless cleric in previous editions? Gods that supported your ideals and goals would give you powers. I just quoted the picture because I like it. opulent fountain fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 03:01
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Considering that you need to be just as intelligent to learn to shoot a fireball, as you need to fight defensively, no reason. That's my point yeah, that's where the whole "but wizards are all selfishly hoarding power" falls down. According to the feat list, casting two cantrips and a 1st level spell (Magic Initiate) is equivalent to extensive crossbow practice (Crossbow Expert). Neither even have prerequisites. Magic isn't some super arcane thing known by a few secretive weirdos, you can learn the basics in the time it takes you to learn to load your crossbow real fast and not poo poo your pants when firing point-blank.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:07
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Serdain posted:But Wizards creating Magic Items like wands have to use XP and Gold to do so.. it's like saying "it's impossible to imagine that a Private Military Contractor wouldn't eventually just give every citizen assault rifles because they don't even need to be trained to use them" Do we even have magic item creation rules for 5e? In pathfinder it doesn't cost xp to make magic items its just gold. I honestly dont see xp being something that will be spent as a crafting requirement, that might actually restrict crafting. Then again I also imagine they'll probably do something dumb like make crafting wizards only. Gun sales is an insanely big industry. When you have a world where untold swarms of orcs, goblins, monsters are roaming around I figure arms sales in D&D fantasy world would be pretty high. Right for your pretend d&d world to function it depends on the vast majority of spellcasters to be massive dicks who are in it for completely selfish reasons. Which again, completely falls apart the second a player goes 'nah im playing a good wizard'. Like, every single wizard is an rear end in a top hat, cause all you need is one good wizard. Who makes himself immortal cause hes a wizard, trains a couple hundred apprentices and suddenly you have too large a spread and too powerful a wizard to ever prevent doing what he wants. Assuming he doesn't just do all this poo poo in his own pocket plane cause remember, hes a wizard and can just do that. Before just teleporting it all straight into the real world or pump out a factory of wizard teachers. If you want anything resembling a real world you tend to have both good and bad people. Not literally everyone is evil and selfish types. You have people who develop a cure for polio and give it out as a free vaccination because they think its the right thing to do. Or you have a wizard who realises its a colossal pain in the arse to micromanage certain aspects of their kingdom they run (because as you've pointed out this wizard society/societies must run everything since they are the only thing that determines is and isn't available so you don't have kings or nobility just wizards) and decide to hand out magic like light and prestidigitation so people massively increase their own production capabilities or fire bolt for combat capabilities to cut down on needing to make weapons. This is the same effect as industrialisation when science and technology began to become widespread. Or how you have elves who are just born with magic and are already making babies first cantrip books. This stuff is already out there or will be. Yeah the Wizard King is probably going to be better but in a world where magic is safe, measurable and controllable, everyone will get their hands on it an use it. Again, as I said. The gods are doing it to their self interest. They are not helping the needy. What part of Asmodeus, the literal god of hell, feeding the needy makes you think he is being selfless. Also this is not investing. This is giving clerics a level 1 spell. This is such trivially meaningless levels of power as to not matter. This is the plan. I want followers for some reason. Apparently this is too small to ever effect me or any of the other gods but I want them to follow me so I can win this dick swinging contest. I feed them, they are completely dependent me to survive. So if I tell them to go murder that village of people not-following me, they do it. Because they want to not-starve. I don't know how that concept is not a naturally obviously resolution of divine magic. Either A) the gods dont care about people and then why bother ever giving clerics anything. B)They care but aren't threatened by the mortals so they give them power in return for service so they servants can be involved in their helicopter dicking affairs. C) They care and are threatened so some gods get champions to kill other gods champions/adventurers in case they grow up to high level and murder the gods. B and C both result in operations where giving clerics the most trivial basic magic you can think of to generate infinite food for everyone allows them to get a hell of a lot out of their worshippers for virtually zero investment.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:09
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That magic is something anyone even slightly diligent can just sit down and learn is a basic premise of Dungeons and Dragons. Isn't that what everyone's all cooing over wizards for in the first place? Wow, good job, you learned to cast magic spells not because of some blessing or birthright but just because you studied hard! So obviously you teach your troops the rote actions that, in this fantasy universe we live in, cause a streak of flame to issue forth from your hands. It's just sense.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:10
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Ferrinus posted:That magic is something anyone even slightly diligent can just sit down and learn is a basic premise of Dungeons and Dragons. Isn't that what everyone's all cooing over wizards for in the first place? Wow, good job, you learned to cast magic spells not because of some blessing or birthright but just because you studied hard! So obviously you teach your troops the rote actions that, in this fantasy universe we live in, cause a streak of flame to issue forth from your hands. It's just sense. They failed their saved to be shoved into a locker. Thats when they became wizards. Anyway yea, its literal science. Its not even tough science. Literally anyone with 10 intelligence (i.e. your average person) can learn to cast spells. How can you look at that and go 'oh yea clearly this means D&D world results in medieval serfdom'. kingcom fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 03:11
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What PC wizards do doesn't even approach science. They just rote-learn the same exact thing out of a book every day. poo poo, they don't even need to do that for cantrips, just repeating the right gestures is enough. The idea that you wouldn't teach your soldiers to shoot fire would seem bizarre in this world. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 03:18
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So I'll be honest. I expected the Necromancer Games kickstarter to be doing much better than it is, currently. With stretch goals up to 225k, I'm guessing they did, too. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/necromancergames/necromancer-games-back-for-5th-edition I'm not in it because I don't think they know jack poo poo about writing for 5e yet, and I'll bet dollars to donuts there is crazy broken poo poo in the spell book. Oh, and because I'm not playing 5e, but still.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:23
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AlphaDog posted:What PC wizards do doesn't even approach science. They just rote-learn the same exact thing out of a book every day. poo poo, they don't even need to do that for cantrips, just repeating the right gestures is enough. Okay fair enough, its high school math at best then. "Sir SIR! I invented this this device that can launch a pointed chunk of metal at the enemy at very high speed" "Son, I learn't how to shoot 1d10 firebolts out of my dick at the age of 12. Stop loving around and get to practising magic missile on that stump. Maybe you'll get your poo poo together and stop rolling 1s on damage." When storming the beaches of Skeletongrad. "ONE MAN GETS A SPELLBOOK, THE OTHER MAN GETS THE PAGES. WHEN THE FIRST MAN DIES THE SECOND MAN PICKS UP THE SPELLBOOK" kingcom fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 03:25
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kingcom posted:Okay fair enough, its high school math at best then. kingcom posted:They failed their saved to be shoved into a locker. Thats when they became wizards. Hmmmmm. The picture becomes more clear.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:27
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AlphaDog posted:What PC wizards do doesn't even approach science. They just rote-learn the same exact thing out of a book every day. poo poo, they don't even need to do that for cantrips, just repeating the right gestures is enough.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:28
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dwarf74 posted:So I'll be honest. I expected the Necromancer Games kickstarter to be doing much better than it is, currently. With stretch goals up to 225k, I'm guessing they did, too. It might be because it's for a brand new system of which the PHB just released, there is no DMG or MM yet, and it's expensive third party materials. That's my take, at least. I think that $20 for a PDF (per PDF) of basically ported rules and adventures is kind of steep. $10 per PDF would have had me pledged. I think that $40 for a hardcover 200+ page book is fine, though.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:30
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Everyone you do know that a Level 1 Fighter is considered pretty impresive to a normal person with a lot of training and stuff. Normal commoners and soldiers are wusses in comparison.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:32
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MonsterEnvy posted:Everyone you do know that a Level 1 Fighter is considered pretty impresive to a normal person with a lot of training and stuff. Normal commoners and soldiers are wusses in comparison. A lucky crossbow bolt can drop a fighter so no. They are not very impressive. A level 1 wizard can reliably drop them without the fighter even being able to resist it.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:34
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MonsterEnvy posted:Everyone you do know that a Level 1 Fighter is considered pretty impresive to a normal person with a lot of training and stuff.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:38
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ascendance posted:Welp, I think you have given me the basis of my D&D 5 campaign world. It's going to be a lot like Glorantha where everyone knows magic, and can cast basic cantrips. Ever play SaGa Frontier 2? It takes place in a world where drat near every functioning adult uses magic, and anyone who can't is basically considered disabled. It goes so far that, because metal dulls magical abilities, nobody uses metal for anything, not even weapons. Weapons are only as good as their ability to conduct magic. And people use magic for everything in their lives, from cooking to farming to building to... well, everything. Of course, it's not quite like it would be in D&D, because one of the main characters, a royal heir who turns out to be unable to use magic, manages to conquer a kingdom by making weapons out of steel and training an army of Fighters who show all the mages what's up, but still. I've always loved it as a setting.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:38
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Harrow posted:Ever play SaGa Frontier 2? It takes place in a world where drat near every functioning adult uses magic, and anyone who can't is basically considered disabled. It goes so far that, because metal dulls magical abilities, nobody uses metal for anything, not even weapons. Weapons are only as good as their ability to conduct magic. And people use magic for everything in their lives, from cooking to farming to building to... well, everything. quote:The Continent of Cruzon, a world where people are born with magic. Lygatto, one of the rare people without magic in this world, is getting swallowed up in the whirlpool of a massive war. With Lygatto as the core, four close friends are connected by cruel fate in a spectacular war tale!!!
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Sep 3, 2014 03:44
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MonsterEnvy posted:Everyone you do know that a Level 1 Fighter is considered pretty impresive to a normal person with a lot of training and stuff. Normal commoners and soldiers are wusses in comparison. Basic DMG posted:Thug So a basic thug has 32 hit points, and hits about half as hard as a first level fighter. A first level fighter is about the standard of a common thug. Ok, so the average street tough is fairly impressive by the standards of the average accountant. These are not high standards.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:51
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I think that my hypothesis that every Wizard is an rear end in a top hat and that Gods don't see food-control as a good investment is self-evident. After all, its the only thing that makes sense when trying to figure out why the primary mode of transport for peasants isn't flying around making GBS threads out fireballs and making illusory songs of 'rock you like a hurricane'.
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Sep 3, 2014 03:52
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Harrow posted:Ever play SaGa Frontier 2? It takes place in a world where drat near every functioning adult uses magic, and anyone who can't is basically considered disabled. It goes so far that, because metal dulls magical abilities, nobody uses metal for anything, not even weapons. Weapons are only as good as their ability to conduct magic. And people use magic for everything in their lives, from cooking to farming to building to... well, everything. Sounds a lot like the Darksword trilogy, by Hickman and Weis
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Sep 3, 2014 03:58
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LowellDND posted:Sounds a lot like the Darksword trilogy, by Hickman and Weis
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Sep 3, 2014 03:59
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Serdain posted:I think that my hypothesis that every Wizard is an rear end in a top hat and that Gods don't see food-control as a good investment is self-evident. This only works when the game's design team has used the combined powers of their ~~imaginations~~ to imagine the forgotten realms again. Which still only work the way they work because the books says so, not because the game rules support it. The alternative would be to write rules that support the setting though, and that looks like it would be a lot of work. Or a setting that supports the rules, and... well there's Eberron I guees?
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Sep 3, 2014 04:02
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AlphaDog posted:This only works when the game's design team has used the combined powers of their ~~imaginations~~ to imagine the forgotten realms again. Which still only work the way they work because the books says so, not because the game rules support it. To make sure I understand your point - the Forgotten Realms should have flying peasants, but doesn't because of the designer's 'imagination'. Eberron, however, logically wouldn't and doesn't have said requirement for air-traffic control?
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Sep 3, 2014 04:07
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Serdain posted:To make sure I understand your point - the Forgotten Realms should have flying peasants, but doesn't because of the designer's 'imagination'. Eberron, however, logically wouldn't and doesn't have said requirement for air-traffic control? Yea, they just have flying ships because its more convenient, faster and safer along with requiring zero work. Plus monorails are pretty fast too. I mean eberron isnt perfect by any means but it at least takes an attempt to imagine what a setting with actual safe magic would be like.
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Sep 3, 2014 04:11
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Serdain posted:To make sure I understand your point - the Forgotten Realms should have flying peasants, but doesn't because of the designer's 'imagination'. Eberron, however, logically wouldn't and doesn't have said requirement for air-traffic control? My point is that "wizards are all selfish and hoard all the secrets" works in a setting like forgotten realms, where not everyone has access to magic for some reason. But FR wizards aren't all like that. The setting doesn't follow on from the rules very well (or the rules are doing a bad job at supporting the setting assumptions). You seem to have got my statement about Eberron backwards. The setting is less bad at following on from the rules. Rules imply magic is everywhere. Magic is everywhere in Eberron. The point of all this is that the Next rules show us that learning (eg) firebolt, frost ray, and magic missile is equivalent in effort to learning to shoot the crossbow really well. That says things about the world - things like low level magic is probably pretty common and there would be units of firebolt "archers" in any decent army. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 04:18
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I've been revisiting a lot of 2e lately, and tonight I got to Critical Hits (as presented in PO:Combat & Tactics). Am I correctly reading that they don't apply to spells, since they key off of your weapon's type?
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Sep 3, 2014 04:21
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moths posted:I've been revisiting a lot of 2e lately, and tonight I got to Critical Hits (as presented in PO:Combat & Tactics). I own that book, but never used the crit system. Spells in 2e don't do weapon damage types though. Nor do they usually require attack rolls - which makes it hard to roll a natural 20 (wait, in this case an 18 or higher and beats the number required by 5+).
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Sep 3, 2014 04:30
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AlphaDog posted:You seem to have got my statement about Eberron backwards. The setting is less bad at following on from the rules. Rules imply magic is everywhere. Magic is everywhere in Eberron. Right, so Eberron does have a need for air-traffic control, as you'd expect reading the rules and the setting accounts for it. Eberron sounds cool.
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Sep 3, 2014 04:32
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Serdain posted:Right, so Eberron does have a need for air-traffic control, as you'd expect reading the rules and the setting accounts for it. Sort of, but mostly not because an rear end in a top hat guild has a monopoly on the airships.
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Sep 3, 2014 04:42
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AlphaDog posted:The point of all this is that the Next rules show us that learning (eg) firebolt, frost ray, and magic missile is equivalent in effort to learning to shoot the crossbow really well. That says things about the world - things like low level magic is probably pretty common and there would be units of firebolt "archers" in any decent army. To do a heel turn: those are both feats, right? Feats might, legitimately, be worthy of the name - maybe only exceptional and heroic individuals ever develop feats of any kind. Most people just get ability score increases or never level up at all. It might be as easy for a fighter or rogue to learn firebolt as it is for them to learn the finer points of marksmanship - but a random soldier in a random army, even a well-trained and well-equipped army, might never be able to attain the benefits of any feat listed in the book.
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Sep 3, 2014 04:47
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moths posted:I've been revisiting a lot of 2e lately, and tonight I got to Critical Hits (as presented in PO:Combat & Tactics). There are rules for crits for spells in PO: Spells & Magic, along with a bunch of crit location tables for different types of spells.
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Sep 3, 2014 04:53
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Serdain posted:Right, so Eberron does have a need for air-traffic control, as you'd expect reading the rules and the setting accounts for it. It is, its got a race of robot dudes who half have PTSD being engineered warmachines, its got a vampire king who faked his own death and assumed the position of his ancestor to make sure him and his family weren't under the control of corrupt and powerful political nobles. Its got a lich who is worshipped and her followers gain cleric magic from the worship but the lich herself is unable to explain where the power is coming from and has more important things to worry about to really investigate. Its got horrors from beyond space and time, a monster kingdom which takes advantage of its population's abilities (i.e. using medusas as diplomats, kobolds as its engineers etc). Its rad.
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Sep 3, 2014 04:54
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Ferrinus posted:To do a heel turn: those are both feats, right? Feats might, legitimately, be worthy of the name - maybe only exceptional and heroic individuals ever develop feats of any kind. Most people just get ability score increases or never level up at all. It might be as easy for a fighter or rogue to learn firebolt as it is for them to learn the finer points of marksmanship - but a random soldier in a random army, even a well-trained and well-equipped army, might never be able to attain the benefits of any feat listed in the book. I don't think that's the case, unless "improve your strength or dexterity while learning to wear light armor" is also somehow a feat of heroism available only to a select few. But let's assume it is, or at least that learning that on top of what you already know is somehow restricted like that. Wizards learn to do magic by studying it in books, not by being inherently special. The army doesn't need you to understand the magical theory behind things, or to be able to inscribe your own spellbook, or figure out how to write a scroll or make a wand, it needs you to shoot fire, which is a single level-0 cantrip that even the lowliest of wizards can poo poo out all day every day with no effort. Soldiers don't even need to do that, just keep up a crossbow-like rate of fire with it for a few minutes at a time.
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Sep 3, 2014 05:11
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MonsterEnvy posted:Everyone you do know that a Level 1 Fighter is considered pretty impresive to a normal person with a lot of training and stuff. Normal commoners and soldiers are wusses in comparison. Besides what other folks have posted, this is very much a YMMV thing. I have seen many, many other folks insist that a first-level fighter is a shitkicker fresh off the turnip truck who's just figured out which end of the sword to stick in the enemy. (eta: I am not arguing in favor of this interpretation, which I think is dumb and ignorant of D&D's history. However, it is definitely A Thing in grognard circles.)
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Sep 3, 2014 05:12
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AlphaDog posted:I don't think that's the case, unless "improve your strength or dexterity while learning to wear light armor" is also somehow a feat of heroism available only to a select few. But let's assume it is, or at least that learning that on top of what you already know is somehow restricted like that. Right, but maybe memorizing a cantrip, or learning to reload a crossbow quickly, or learning to wear light armor when it isn't a foundational aspect of your life's vocation (ie a default proficiency based on your class and/or monster type), is beyond the reach of all but the most heroic souls.
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Sep 3, 2014 05:19
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AlphaDog posted:In a world where learn cantrips and first-level spells, as well as crossbow, staff, etc is equivalent to learn all armour and weapons... battle-mage mercenary armies sound pretty baller Ferrinus posted:To do a heel turn: those are both feats, right? Feats might, legitimately, be worthy of the name - maybe only exceptional and heroic individuals ever develop feats of any kind. Most people just get ability score increases or never level up at all. It might be as easy for a fighter or rogue to learn firebolt as it is for them to learn the finer points of marksmanship - but a random soldier in a random army, even a well-trained and well-equipped army, might never be able to attain the benefits of any feat listed in the book. You forget that High Elves get an Cantrip for free as a racial thing. Unless we're going to argue that those, too, are uniquely ~speshul~ to PCs. Strength of Many fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 05:23
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Selachian posted:Besides what other folks have posted, this is very much a YMMV thing. I have seen many, many other folks insist that a first-level fighter is a shitkicker fresh off the turnip truck who's just figured out which end of the sword to stick in the enemy. This is another one of those things where the rules don't always support the way the game's supposed to work. The beginning fighter is supposed to be a badass hero in every edition. They all say that's what he is. In reality, he's often about the equivalent of an above average soldier. Ferrinus posted:Right, but maybe memorizing a cantrip, or learning to reload a crossbow quickly, or learning to wear light armor when it isn't a foundational aspect of your life's vocation (ie a default proficiency based on your class and/or monster type), is beyond the reach of all but the most heroic souls. What about shooting firebolts isn't part of the vocational training of fire bolt archers? Like, I get it. Soldier-archers are more like mini fighters, which would restrict them from learning cantrips because that's magicianship not fighterhood. So why not use mini-wizards instead? Again, you learn wizardry by studying books (and in previous editions, having average or better intelligence), not by being inherently magic like sorcerers or doing a deal with the devil like warlocks. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 05:24
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Ferrinus posted:Right, but maybe memorizing a cantrip, or learning to reload a crossbow quickly, or learning to wear light armor when it isn't a foundational aspect of your life's vocation (ie a default proficiency based on your class and/or monster type), is beyond the reach of all but the most heroic souls. "I wanna wear leather armor when I grow up, dad!" "Son, we talked about setting realistic goals in life.
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Sep 3, 2014 05:24
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Ferrinus posted:Right, but maybe memorizing a cantrip, or learning to reload a crossbow quickly, or learning to wear light armor when it isn't a foundational aspect of your life's vocation (ie a default proficiency based on your class and/or monster type), is beyond the reach of all but the most heroic souls. Perhaps, but I certainly don't see it as being sold this way in the actual book.
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Sep 3, 2014 05:26
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Strength of Many posted:You forget that High Elves get an Cantrip for free as a racial thing. Unless we're going to argue that those, too, are uniquely ~speshul~ to PCs. It's elves that have entire armies full of fireball hurlers, then. Very demoralizing to fight, even if they aren't strictly superior to regular marksmen. AlphaDog posted:What about shooting firebolts isn't part of the vocational training of fire bolt archers? It's probably more expensive to train the latter, or fewer people have the knack, or similar. Maybe the bodyguards of a mage academy all know basic cantrips, but most feudal lords haven't got the materials in their keeps or literacy in their populace to be able to count on it. S.J. posted:Perhaps, but I certainly don't see it as being sold this way in the actual book. The book talks up magic as absolutely crucial to the point of being taken for granted by adventurers, but never forgets to let you know how rare and wondrous magic spells are in general. If everyone and their brother doesn't know how to cast Firebolt - which is the default milieu presented by the books - then you can either play ball and think of Firebolt in terms that make it nontrivial to cast, or you can cross your arms and refuse to make any buy-in whatsoever. But "you can learn Firebolt with a single feat" isn't a problem with 5e.
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Sep 3, 2014 05:44
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