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Vorpal Cat posted:Well that's fine because we can just have our clerics of the non rear end in a top hat god who doesn't sucktm can just create food for free. Thank you for giving me ideas for my next homebrew setting.
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Sep 3, 2014 09:50
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AlphaDog posted:Are we still talking about the game of Dungeons & Dragons, with the healing potions in every minor villain's backpack and the magic swords scattered around every old ruin and cave? One other thing I like about 5e is that magical items is much more, if not, entirely optional. The absence of magic items still hit non-casters harder than casters who could probably duplicate particular effects with their spells, but casters being limited to just one buff spell, which will fail if they blow their concentration checks, means that a caster with time to pre-buff can't just imitate being fully decked out anyway.
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Sep 3, 2014 10:02
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Slashrat posted:One other thing I like about 5e is that magical items is much more, if not, entirely optional. We're not entirely sure of that. Wait for the DMG. I expect they'll turn right around on that because hey, getting nerds to buy tomes of poo poo with special magic item artifact things is par for the course.
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Sep 3, 2014 10:12
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Is there something I missed that you're supposed to do to monsters immune to non-magic weapons?
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Sep 3, 2014 10:13
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Is there something I missed that you're supposed to do to monsters immune to non-magic weapons? Regret the fact that you play a class without spells and beg your DM for a magic weapon hand-out, you dirty non-magic sub(race)!
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Sep 3, 2014 10:22
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Don't need a map, don't need equipment, should go the distance and say you don't need dice because you can draw numbers out of a hat. It's old school.
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Sep 3, 2014 10:30
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Slashrat posted:One other thing I like about 5e is that magical items is much more, if not, entirely optional. The absence of magic items still hit non-casters harder than casters who could probably duplicate particular effects with their spells, but casters being limited to just one buff spell, which will fail if they blow their concentration checks, means that a caster with time to pre-buff can't just imitate being fully decked out anyway. It is hilariously the opposite; casters are totally ok without magic items, but non-casters desperately, desperately need them, and many of the mechanics assume you have them. Of course, that's because non-casters are limited to "sword of +maths to hitting things" whereas apparently, at least from what I've heard, the modules have really awesome caster loot, of course, of course. EDIT: Like, the golem has gone from being the ultimate "gently caress you spellcaster!" monster to being 100% anti-fighter while wizards take them down with ease, because god forbid literally anything at all in-game be strong against wizards.
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Sep 3, 2014 11:11
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ProfessorCirno posted:It is hilariously the opposite; casters are totally ok without magic items, but non-casters desperately, desperately need them, and many of the mechanics assume you have them. Of course, that's because non-casters are limited to "sword of +maths to hitting things" whereas apparently, at least from what I've heard, the modules have really awesome caster loot, of course, of course. Your wrong about the First. The Items are just as awesome for the Marials as the Casters. For your edit. The Clay Golem has changed (Though it is still fairly anti caster due to all of the stuff it is immune to.) and I don't know the stats of the rest. It's pretty tough for both sides. We also have the Rakshasa which is literally gently caress casters the monster due to being immune to all spells below 7th level unless it wants to be.
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Sep 3, 2014 11:41
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Is there something I missed that you're supposed to do to monsters immune to non-magic weapons? People are also overblowing how many monsters are like this. Most of the ones they keep talking about like this just have resistance which is half damage.
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Sep 3, 2014 11:42
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That magic weapons are required anywhere defies the stated design goal of optional magic weapons.
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Sep 3, 2014 12:22
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moths posted:That magic weapons are required anywhere defies the stated design goal of optional magic weapons. No no everything is optional, which means if you only figure out which bits to put together, you'll have a ~~perfect game~~ After you rewrite that one part, and redo the math on that other part and houserule the thing that the math redo broke, and...
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Sep 3, 2014 12:48
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Look at the Stone Golem.quote:they are nearly impervious to spells and ordinary weapons It's immune to damage from nonmagical weapons that aren't adamantine and it has advantage on saves against spells. Let's look at how that works out. Against a CR = level PC caster: It can literally never pass a Cha save. It can literally never pass an Int save. It has a 28% chance (with its advantage) of making a Dex save. It has a 36% chance (with its advantage) of making a Wis save. It also has no ranged attack, so you can make it hover 100ft up in the air (or just against the ceiling) with Reverse Gravity and plink it down with cantrips in complete safety if you want. Or Levitate, Spider Climb or Fly yourself and do that. Also! It has an AoE Slow attack (in a 10 foot radius around itself) that calls for a DC17 Wis save. Anyone who fails the save can't use reactions, their speed is halved, they can take either an action or a bonus action on its turn, (not both) and they can't make more than one attack on their turn. At level 10, with +2 Wis, you have a 30% chance to make the save. If you're proficient, you have a 45% chance to make the save. A caster is much less likely to be within 10 feet of the Stone Golem and therefore in range of its Slow, but even if they do get hit with it they're pretty much fine. They don't need to move around all that much, reactions and bonus actions aren't that important to them and of course they're not making attacks, let alone multiattacks. They just use their plain old action to cast spells against which it has a 0-36% chance of saving against. A Fighter straight up can't do anything to it unless they have a magic or adamantine weapon. If they do have one, and they engage it and get hit with Slow, they get to chip away at its 178 HP with one attack per turn which will on average deal 9.1 damage. While not under the effects of Slow, they get to make two attacks, doubling that! Don't worry, though, it's all been through the Math Wringer. Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 13:15
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MonsterEnvy posted:Most of the ones they keep talking about like this just have resistance which is half damage. Half damage for a martial in 5e basically means "half screen time" while casters observe no such limitations. I mean, by your own admission (previously in this very thread) the Fighter is just fine as the guy who only "fights good" (ignoring everyone else who can also fight good). So it's cool for the guy whose only schtick is "fights good" to sometimes just fight half as good without any player input or agency? "The prewritten module we're using says that now your Fighting Man sucks at fighting. So... Wizard, how do you resolve this situation?"
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Sep 3, 2014 13:15
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Jack the Lad posted:Don't worry, though, it's all been through the Math Wringer. There's a reason that what's called a wringer in America is called a mangle in Britain.
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Sep 3, 2014 13:44
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Vorpal Cat posted:Well that's fine because we can just have our clerics of the non rear end in a top hat god who doesn't sucktm can just create food for free. Dude, the God of the harvest is already blessing the lands of the entire world. That's why you get any harvest at all. Every crop that grows lives through her providence. It's silly to assume the world is like ours PLUS Gods, when it's presented as being like ours because it was made by Gods. If Gods created people and you can pray to fertility Gods, then we have to at least grant the assumption that in this setting the Gods have a role in said fertility. Jimbozig fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 14:42
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Jack the Lad posted:Don't worry, though, it's all been through the Math Wringer. You should really grab up mathwringer.tumblr.com and repost all your stat stuff there.
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Sep 3, 2014 14:47
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cbirdsong posted:You should really grab up mathwringer.tumblr.com and repost all your stat stuff there. Snagged it for later. My previous front runner had been Skeleton Town but it turns out that's taken.
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Sep 3, 2014 15:05
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AlphaDog posted:Are we still talking about the game of Dungeons & Dragons, with the healing potions in every minor villain's backpack and the magic swords scattered around every old ruin and cave? Start going into random caves, and you will not find a magic sword. Go through a peasant's pantry, and you're not going to find a healing potion. Supernatural power (this includes a fighter's uncanny ability to take down a manticore 1 on 1 or similar - most people, upon entering personal combat with a manticore, just loving die) belongs to heroes, villains, and monsters, not the populace. Vorpal Cat posted:Were talking about settings where people can literally receive magic powers by joining a priesthood, I don't need to argue rules as physic to know that that is going to massively change how society functions. Settings wise, not rules wise, is there any reason for non magical nobility to exist in a D&D world? Its kind of hard to argue divine right of kings when the guy next to you can literally bring people back from the dead via the power of god and says he should be in charge instead. Actually, you can't. You can join the priesthood and learn all the chants and spend your life working for your god's cause and so on, and you're going to end up with the "Acolyte" background and therefore the amazing power to... call on your fellow faithful for aid. You're not special. You don't get to actually wield divine power. Why do some people do? The gods work in mysterious ways, clearly. But it's not repeatable. You can't build a cleric generating machine, even if the parts you use are things like "sacred texts" and "holy days". quote:This is without getting into what kind of effects magical artifacts, wandering monsters, and random adventuring parties would have on agriculture, the economy, and society. Or why there's not large scale institutions in place to find and train more potential wizards, druids, clerics, and other casters in order to give nations advantages over there rivals. Because if 1% of your rivals population can use magic, and 1.5% of your own population can, your going to crush them both economically and militarily. The effect they have is to regress society, because in the European dark ages if you wandered into the forest you might get eaten by wolves, but in the D&D dark ages even if you hang out at home a troll or dragon or something might roll in and flatten you. You can't just train a fighter or a druid. It's like saying oh, well, I need some art, I'll just train up a Da Vinci. If something bad happens, you can't sit back, whistling, and let your nation's official regiment of heroes take care of it, because no one has heroes. Heroes appear unpredictably and are generally in short supply. That's why they're frigging heroes! You're confusing heroic fantasy fiction with the TvTtropes article on heroic fantasy fiction. Oh, a threat? No matter, our Brave Heroes will Appear In Our Hour Of Need and have a Moment of Awesome! This is so easy!
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Sep 3, 2014 15:08
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Ferrinus posted:You can't just train a fighter or a druid. It's like saying oh, well, I need some art, I'll just train up a Da Vinci. If something bad happens, you can't sit back, whistling, and let your nation's official regiment of heroes take care of it, because no one has heroes. Are you saying that the common thug is the Da Vinci of his craft? Because if you really can't train a Fighter, then humans would never win any war, ever. Their lands would have been swallowed by orcs and elves that savagely tear them apart or cast their infinite firebolts with ease. I could see the argument that it takes a special talent to be able to cast magic or attune with nature or recieve a divine power from the gods, but many classes are well within reach for a citizen if they receive proper guidance and training (until, of course, higher levels - I do believe a level 7 Fighter would be pretty amazing to even a trained soldier.)
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Sep 3, 2014 15:19
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dichloroisocyanuric posted:Are you saying that the common thug is the Da Vinci of his craft? Because if you really can't train a Fighter, then humans would never win any war, ever. Their lands would have been swallowed by orcs and elves that savagely tear them apart or cast their infinite firebolts with ease. Does a common thug have action surge? Feats? Second wind? No. A level 1 fighter, or a level 1 wizard, isn't really more powerful than a random town guard or highwaymen. But they are members of heroic player character classes and the town guard is not and almost certainly will never be. You can train a hundred people into town guards; you cannot train a hundred people into fighters, or into wizards, try as you might. Heroism can't be manufactured.
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Sep 3, 2014 15:23
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Ferrinus posted:Does a common thug have action surge? Feats? Second wind? No. okay, I get what you're saying. not that fighters and wizards are better than a level 3 warrior or adept by default, but that they have the roleplay potential to be far greater than those classes could hope for. but mechanically, your average human can be trained to be pretty powerful, and magic still litters the game world. removing player classes from the discussion doesn't change the fact that it seems unlikely the world would perform how the books suggest. edit: actually, even isolated to 5e, Knights DO have special abilities and multi-attack. opulent fountain fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 15:32
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Okay, but can your average human be trained to be more powerful than, like, a full grown troll? A vampire? Can the magic that litters the game world actually be turned in humanity's favor, or does it mostly manifest as things like a dragon's fire breath, a siren's hypnotic singing, the spontaneous reanimation of the improperly buried dead, and gateways that the lords of faerie use to kidnap your children?
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Sep 3, 2014 15:36
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In this edition, you won't get shitloads of level 1 fighters everywhere? I know you didn't in 4e, but you sure as hell did in published 3.x and 2e adventures and supplements. I'm not going to bet on it any more than I'm going to bet on actually optional magic items, but if it turns out that when you take a thousand dudes, weed out the physically incapable, the complete idiots, the people who didn't really want to be there, and the just plain unlucky, you end up with ~800 regular soldiers and maybe one guy who might one day be a capital-F Fighter, then that's great.
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Sep 3, 2014 15:37
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Ferrinus posted:Okay, but can your average human be trained to be more powerful than, like, a full grown troll? A vampire? Depends. If we're talking 5e, no one knows until the DMG comes out. If we're talking 3e/2e, yeah, absolutely, to both things afaik. Someone else put 4e best in my opinion, which is that the adventurers are basically fantasy Avengers.
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Sep 3, 2014 15:41
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"Depends" is the correct answer. Eberron isn't necessarily better or worse than Greyhawk or Points of Light, but it's not somehow more realistic. Dungeon and Dragons's character advancement rules do not actually necessitate any particular kind of setting, and work just as well for gritty horror fantasy and a magical wonderland with a skilled wizard living on every city block. This is a question of personal preference and presentation, not "well Create Food is only level 3 so therefore D&D is about a post-scarcity society".
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Sep 3, 2014 15:49
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Can we talk about Minor Conjuration? A second level conjurer can, at will, choose to conjure a small nonmagical object in their hand or on the ground near them, so long as it fits in a 3ft cube, weighs less than 10 lbs and they've seen an object of that type before. It lasts for an hour, until you take damage, or until you cast the spell again. And they faintly glow, appearing magical at a glance. But you can do this as many times as you want. You don't need adventuring gear anymore. Free crossbow? Check. Free rope? Check. Torch, spyglass, lockpicks, climbing pitons, a stool to sit on, free food or water, as long as you've seen it before. Conjure a copy of the key around the jailer's belt. Set up a time delay mechanism, like a bucket or cartwheel that disappears in one hour. Depending on how much your DM lets you get away with, you can conjure entire books and read them, or make flasks of oil or acid or whatever. I imagine a big hallway in Wizard School full of various mundane objects that fit into a 3ft cube, that the initiates walk down everyday to memorise them for later. At 6th level you get Benign Transposition, which lets you swap places with another willing creature within 30ft. You get the ability back after a rest, or after casting a Conjuration spell of level 1 or higher. You can summon an Unseen Servant 30ft away as a ritual without using a slot, regain your Benign Transposition ability since it's a conjuration spell, and then teleport to wherever you summoned it since you can command it to be willing. A 2nd level conjurer can magic his way across any obstacle 30ft or less as long as he can see (and target) the other side of it. Conjuration is awesome. What other creative uses are there for this stuff?
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Sep 3, 2014 16:06
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Ferrinus posted:"Depends" is the correct answer. Eberron isn't necessarily better or worse than Greyhawk or Points of Light, but it's not somehow more realistic. Dungeon and Dragons's character advancement rules do not actually necessitate any particular kind of setting, and work just as well for gritty horror fantasy and a magical wonderland with a skilled wizard living on every city block. This is a question of personal preference and presentation, not "well Create Food is only level 3 so therefore D&D is about a post-scarcity society". In the end, we are all playing the system the way we want. I agree about the different settings, and whenever I run something non-standard I tend to have the best knights be about cr 3 and things like manticores be legendary myths. I take a lot of inspiration from worlds like the Berserk anime and the Wizard Knight series by Gene Wolfe, and I think it's awesome to have this low fantasy world that most people live in overlap with this high fantasy world that the chosen adventurers get caught up in.
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Sep 3, 2014 16:20
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Can unseen servant fly and pass through stuff, like jail cell doors?
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Sep 3, 2014 16:26
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Boing posted:Can we talk about Minor Conjuration? A second level conjurer can, at will, choose to conjure a small nonmagical object in their hand or on the ground near them, so long as it fits in a 3ft cube, weighs less than 10 lbs and they've seen an object of that type before. It lasts for an hour, until you take damage, or until you cast the spell again. And they faintly glow, appearing magical at a glance. But you can do this as many times as you want. Holy water. Look at another Wizard's spellbook, summon a copy of it later and learn all his spells. If you can view compressed hydrogen somewhere, my napkin math says you could create enough to fill a balloon that'll lift ~1,300 lbs. Look up at the Sun, conjure a cube of stellar hydrogen.
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Sep 3, 2014 16:35
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I have my second session of Adventure Society tonight, and I'd like to try something different than the Barbarian I rolled up quickly last time, the way their rage works doesn't feel right to me. We have a large party so there's no glaring need for any certain type of character. I'm thinking about making a human variant Bard, taking Sharpshooter as my feat with the idea being to make a solid dex based skirmisher/ranged fighter who can also do some casting. My questions are A) Is this a bad idea because bards have a big weakness of some type as a class; and B) Is Sharpshooter a trap/bad idea at first level? I'm coming from a mainly pathfinder background so I know generally the power attack/deadly aim type feats are good in that system, but starting off with what would be the maximum risk/reward has me questioning if taking it at first level just means I'm never going to actually hit anything.
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Sep 3, 2014 16:36
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FromTheShire posted:I have my second session of Adventure Society tonight, and I'd like to try something different than the Barbarian I rolled up quickly last time, the way their rage works doesn't feel right to me. We have a large party so there's no glaring need for any certain type of character. I'm thinking about making a human variant Bard, taking Sharpshooter as my feat with the idea being to make a solid dex based skirmisher/ranged fighter who can also do some casting. Bards are one of the strongest classes in 5e, arguably in contention with Wizards for the #1 spot. Sharpshooter is bad at first level. Crossbow Expert is pretty great, though. Bards get hand crossbow proficiency and it gives you a second attack from level 1. Once you hit level 4 you can grab Sharpshooter and when you hit level 5 you can make 3 attacks each dealing 1d6+13. They're at +1 since you don't have the archery fighting style, which kinda sucks, but still.
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Sep 3, 2014 16:44
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crime fighting hog posted:Can unseen servant fly and pass through stuff, like jail cell doors? I don't think it says (though the servant is 'shapeless'), but you can summon it anywhere within a 60ft range, so you can just cast it where you want it.
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Sep 3, 2014 16:44
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Boing posted:Can we talk about Minor Conjuration? A second level conjurer can, at will, choose to conjure a small nonmagical object in their hand or on the ground near them, so long as it fits in a 3ft cube, weighs less than 10 lbs and they've seen an object of that type before. It lasts for an hour, until you take damage, or until you cast the spell again. And they faintly glow, appearing magical at a glance. But you can do this as many times as you want. One of the things to remember about creating objects is that destroying them can be effective as well. Your trigger mechanism is recasting minor Conjuration. Also acid, Greek Fire, and Tanglefoot Bags.
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Sep 3, 2014 17:04
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Jack the Lad posted:Bards are one of the strongest classes in 5e, arguably in contention with Wizards for the #1 spot. I'm glad to hear that, I've been trying to find the right game to run a heavy metal bard in, and a guy running around shredding on a 6 string crossbow sounds pretty darn fun. I have to admit, I'm so used to crossbows being useless I hadn't even considered that.
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Sep 3, 2014 17:07
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Ferrinus posted:Actually, you can't. You can join the priesthood and learn all the chants and spend your life working for your god's cause and so on, and you're going to end up with the "Acolyte" background and therefore the amazing power to... call on your fellow faithful for aid. And where exactly in the rules does it say that clerics are this rare? Where does it say that your average priest, who have the same spiritual training as clerics if less martial, can't use low level divine magic? Clerics obviously can't be that rare otherwise how would every single rinky dink adventuring party be able to hire one, considering that up till 3ed edition's stupidly cheap healing potions they were basically mandatory. Your so committed to the idea that magic is rare that now your arguing rules as physics that years of training somehow only get you a freaking acolyte background. Just because the rules so far haven't introduced something midway between an acolyte and a full on cleric doesn't they don't exist. And don't give me this "gods work in mysterious ways" crap, this is D&D home to some of the least mysterious or god like deities in any medium of fiction. edit: I think the problem is were looking for fundamentally different things in a setting. Personally I find fantasy middle ages to be contrived, overused and boring. The actual middle ages depended on a very specific set of economic and social forces which notably don't exist in your average fantasy world. I also find it strange to claim magic is rare when half the player handbook is nothing but a list of spells. But if impoverished serfs and scheming power hunger non magic nobility is your cup of tea then don't let me tell you, you shouldn't enjoy it. Vorpal Cat fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 19:03
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We won't actually know how common it is or isn't meant to be until the DMG comes out anyways.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:09
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S.J. posted:We won't actually know how common it is or isn't meant to be until the DMG comes out anyways. Come on y'all, we already know what the answer will be. It's up to the DM.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:39
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I think it'll be easier for them to fall back into the not-at-all helpful practice of writing up NPCs as Father Joe (Cleric 2) and Farmer Ted (Fighter 1).
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Sep 3, 2014 19:43
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But don't none of y'all mere mortals gently caress with Weavin' Dave (Expert 20).
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Sep 3, 2014 19:45
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Am I missing something or is it horrendously inconvenient that the spells section is organized alphabetically?
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Sep 3, 2014 20:27
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