Phil Niekro posted:

remember when one of the weird twitter group implied he would stab a 10 year old on behalf of a twitter girl because the 10 year old quoted Carlin

Rad Tad posted:

martin luther king's quest jr

DrPlump posted:

Female gamers are a huge problem for gamer culture. Previously there was no pussy at all and everyone as a group accepted no one was getting laid. You made your decision the video games are here and the girls are not. No one expected these men to get laid and everyone agreed it was entirely their fault for remaining in an area with no girls.

Then something happened with Obama crashing the economy which reduced supply of normal men. Some women turned to gamers hoping for quantity over quality. Suddenly there is pussy in the place where the video games are but there is not enough for everyone. This created a prisoners dilemma over the pussy supply. The same phenomenon is responsible for wars and most other acts of violence and that is when the pussy supply is mostly 1 to 1.

Being gamer nerds they courted the ladies in the fashion they know best. They validated them in every way they could and catered to their every whim. Eventually this created a situation in which every female gamer had their every wish fulfilled and their every thought and action amplified.

Normal women would be instantly turned off by such desperate attempts for their pussy. Many resorted to hiding themselves through anonymity to avoid the constant sexual assault. However the crazy and ugly girls are not used to being sought after and validated. This is a new experience for them but in the worst possible way. It becomes addicting like a drug and due to the disproportionate cock to pussy ratio it is like a 24/7 fire hose.

No one person deserves that much power. It would corrupt anyone. I don't blame Zoe. I blame the thirsty rear end betas.

The Guardian posted:

And ultimately, those members of the gaming community who distrust the games press, have a really wonderful option: make the alternative. Instead of constructing strange conspiracy theories and flooding games sites with vitriolic comments, withdraw entirely. Make your own game sites. It has never been easier – or more viable. Because however much you mistrust them, the big gaming sites serve the needs of millions of gamers who don’t worry about the relationships between the press and the publishers – who just want approachable reviews, cool videos and funny list features; that’s their choice. They can’t be denied or derided either. So the best, most positive option, is to create something else.

quote:

And ultimately, those members of the gaming community who distrust the game devs, have a really wonderful option: make the alternative. Instead of constructing strange conspiracy theories and flooding games sites and twitter with vitriolic comments about misogyny and feminism, withdraw entirely. Make your own games. It has never been easier – or more viable. Because however much you mistrust devs, the big studios serve the needs of millions of gamers who don’t worry about boob size or lack of female characters – who just want fun games, cool stories and interesting mechanics; that’s their choice. They can’t be denied or derided either. So the best, most positive option, is to create something else.

EasternBronze posted:

If any game sites pop-up that have a strict "no politics" policy I'll definitely check it out.

EasternBronze posted:

If any game sites pop-up that have a strict "no politics" policy I'll definitely check it out.

Rad Tad posted:

lol gently caress the police

Cardboard Box A posted:

Yesterday, I got sucked down the rabbit hole of watching anti-Sarkeesian YouTube videos. Many of the arguments against her are laughably ironic, but one in particular stood out to me as not ironic, but just sad. In the video, Anita was accused of shutting down the conversation because she has turned off the comments, ratings, and statistics on her YouTube channel. I can’t really say I blame her. I won’t link the video; you can Google it. But, I will say this accusation was made a year ago. Even though Anita Sarkeesian finds herself once again in the middle of the poo poo storm, the harassment of her has been going on for years. That’s sad and terrifying. (If you haven’t heard of the latest situation, the last couple of posts on this blog cover it with some detail.)

Due to personal stuff over the last month and the latest situation with Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn, my own anxieties about taking about anything feminist have reached a level of code red. Thankfully, I have never had death or rape threats, but, I often find myself in situations like the one I wrote about a few weeks ago in which the rhetoric reaches incredibly low levels with accusations like “ugly whore.” The anxiety and fear of a situation turning ugly can make it pretty hard to carry on.

Last night, we were talking about the somewhat bizarre insult of Social Justice Warrior. I’m no warrior, but the “insult” makes me feel anything but disempowered (as I suppose it’s meant to make me feel). During this conversation, my anxiety levels were going down. I can get on board with being a Social Justice Warrior. That’s what this is all about, right? Social Justice. But, then I got an unexpected text from an old and dear friend that read, “I’ve been FB stalking you today. What’s up with the feminism posts?” And, with that I sort of froze again. Like I said, I’m not a warrior, and I’m becoming increasingly anxious about engaging in a situation with someone that could end with some variation of “ugly whore.” I almost didn’t answer him, then I realized I was being somewhat ridiculous (or maybe cowardly is the better word). This particular person is an old and dear friend because he’s an awesome person. So, I told him some of the stuff that was going on, and I pointed him to this blog. It was a productive conversation.

Many factors have led to this sense of anxiety I now feel. But, I’ve been hearing quite a bit about how this other side feels silenced and wants to be heard. But, if your argument is the one that has always/already been the one heard, then you have always already been heard. (I hate the phrase always already, but it is what it is.) Lately, it seems that I and many others have to fight to be heard and are being told for one reason or another that we don’t really have the right to even be in the conversation. I shouldn’t even say “lately” because it’s always been a battle to be heard, but lately, it seems to be an even more uphill battle.

I don’t believe that Anita Sarkeesian is shutting down the conversation by shutting down the comments. But, like I said, I can’t say I blame her for shutting down the comments. I think we all have seen how ugly and unproductive that can get. And, she is in the conversation in other ways. Those anti-Sarkeesian videos are inherently “in conversation” with her (although those are sometimes also pretty ugly conversations). She’s on Twitter. She wrote:



And, that’s what I think it has to come down to. My anxieties are high and conversations often get ugly, but I think it’s important. Despite this being a terrifying conversation sometimes (yes rape and death threats are terrifying), I’m ready to talk and have a productive conversation. It’s not about me wanting or needing to be right; it’s about me wanting to be heard. So save the ugly rhetoric and save the “arguments” about what I should or should not be offended by. I say “I” because I cannot speak for the entire feminist community. There are things that offend me that wouldn’t offend others and vice versa. But, we want to be heard and have productive conversations.

http://www.somethingawful.com/game-reviews/

Cardboard Box A posted:

Yesterday, I got sucked down the rabbit hole of watching anti-Sarkeesian YouTube videos. Many of the arguments against her are laughably ironic, but one in particular stood out to me as not ironic, but just sad. In the video, Anita was accused of shutting down the conversation because she has turned off the comments, ratings, and statistics on her YouTube channel. I can’t really say I blame her. I won’t link the video; you can Google it. But, I will say this accusation was made a year ago. Even though Anita Sarkeesian finds herself once again in the middle of the poo poo storm, the harassment of her has been going on for years. That’s sad and terrifying. (If you haven’t heard of the latest situation, the last couple of posts on this blog cover it with some detail.)

Due to personal stuff over the last month and the latest situation with Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn, my own anxieties about taking about anything feminist have reached a level of code red. Thankfully, I have never had death or rape threats, but, I often find myself in situations like the one I wrote about a few weeks ago in which the rhetoric reaches incredibly low levels with accusations like “ugly whore.” The anxiety and fear of a situation turning ugly can make it pretty hard to carry on.

Last night, we were talking about the somewhat bizarre insult of Social Justice Warrior. I’m no warrior, but the “insult” makes me feel anything but disempowered (as I suppose it’s meant to make me feel). During this conversation, my anxiety levels were going down. I can get on board with being a Social Justice Warrior. That’s what this is all about, right? Social Justice. But, then I got an unexpected text from an old and dear friend that read, “I’ve been FB stalking you today. What’s up with the feminism posts?” And, with that I sort of froze again. Like I said, I’m not a warrior, and I’m becoming increasingly anxious about engaging in a situation with someone that could end with some variation of “ugly whore.” I almost didn’t answer him, then I realized I was being somewhat ridiculous (or maybe cowardly is the better word). This particular person is an old and dear friend because he’s an awesome person. So, I told him some of the stuff that was going on, and I pointed him to this blog. It was a productive conversation.

Many factors have led to this sense of anxiety I now feel. But, I’ve been hearing quite a bit about how this other side feels silenced and wants to be heard. But, if your argument is the one that has always/already been the one heard, then you have always already been heard. (I hate the phrase always already, but it is what it is.) Lately, it seems that I and many others have to fight to be heard and are being told for one reason or another that we don’t really have the right to even be in the conversation. I shouldn’t even say “lately” because it’s always been a battle to be heard, but lately, it seems to be an even more uphill battle.

I don’t believe that Anita Sarkeesian is shutting down the conversation by shutting down the comments. But, like I said, I can’t say I blame her for shutting down the comments. I think we all have seen how ugly and unproductive that can get. And, she is in the conversation in other ways. Those anti-Sarkeesian videos are inherently “in conversation” with her (although those are sometimes also pretty ugly conversations). She’s on Twitter. She wrote:



And, that’s what I think it has to come down to. My anxieties are high and conversations often get ugly, but I think it’s important. Despite this being a terrifying conversation sometimes (yes rape and death threats are terrifying), I’m ready to talk and have a productive conversation. It’s not about me wanting or needing to be right; it’s about me wanting to be heard. So save the ugly rhetoric and save the “arguments” about what I should or should not be offended by. I say “I” because I cannot speak for the entire feminist community. There are things that offend me that wouldn’t offend others and vice versa. But, we want to be heard and have productive conversations.

http://www.somethingawful.com/game-reviews/

Fire Barrel posted:

Most of the anti-Sarkeesian shitheads, if they actually took time to think about her contents, and larger issues they address, would probably realize feminism isn't just not a threat to games, but actually not a bad idea! .

Ponce de Le0n posted:

Cardboard Box A posted:

Yesterday, I got sucked down the rabbit hole of watching anti-Sarkeesian YouTube videos. Many of the arguments against her are laughably ironic, but one in particular stood out to me as not ironic, but just sad. In the video, Anita was accused of shutting down the conversation because she has turned off the comments, ratings, and statistics on her YouTube channel. I can’t really say I blame her. I won’t link the video; you can Google it. But, I will say this accusation was made a year ago. Even though Anita Sarkeesian finds herself once again in the middle of the poo poo storm, the harassment of her has been going on for years. That’s sad and terrifying. (If you haven’t heard of the latest situation, the last couple of posts on this blog cover it with some detail.)

Due to personal stuff over the last month and the latest situation with Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn, my own anxieties about taking about anything feminist have reached a level of code red. Thankfully, I have never had death or rape threats, but, I often find myself in situations like the one I wrote about a few weeks ago in which the rhetoric reaches incredibly low levels with accusations like “ugly whore.” The anxiety and fear of a situation turning ugly can make it pretty hard to carry on.

Last night, we were talking about the somewhat bizarre insult of Social Justice Warrior. I’m no warrior, but the “insult” makes me feel anything but disempowered (as I suppose it’s meant to make me feel). During this conversation, my anxiety levels were going down. I can get on board with being a Social Justice Warrior. That’s what this is all about, right? Social Justice. But, then I got an unexpected text from an old and dear friend that read, “I’ve been FB stalking you today. What’s up with the feminism posts?” And, with that I sort of froze again. Like I said, I’m not a warrior, and I’m becoming increasingly anxious about engaging in a situation with someone that could end with some variation of “ugly whore.” I almost didn’t answer him, then I realized I was being somewhat ridiculous (or maybe cowardly is the better word). This particular person is an old and dear friend because he’s an awesome person. So, I told him some of the stuff that was going on, and I pointed him to this blog. It was a productive conversation.

Many factors have led to this sense of anxiety I now feel. But, I’ve been hearing quite a bit about how this other side feels silenced and wants to be heard. But, if your argument is the one that has always/already been the one heard, then you have always already been heard. (I hate the phrase always already, but it is what it is.) Lately, it seems that I and many others have to fight to be heard and are being told for one reason or another that we don’t really have the right to even be in the conversation. I shouldn’t even say “lately” because it’s always been a battle to be heard, but lately, it seems to be an even more uphill battle.

I don’t believe that Anita Sarkeesian is shutting down the conversation by shutting down the comments. But, like I said, I can’t say I blame her for shutting down the comments. I think we all have seen how ugly and unproductive that can get. And, she is in the conversation in other ways. Those anti-Sarkeesian videos are inherently “in conversation” with her (although those are sometimes also pretty ugly conversations). She’s on Twitter. She wrote:



And, that’s what I think it has to come down to. My anxieties are high and conversations often get ugly, but I think it’s important. Despite this being a terrifying conversation sometimes (yes rape and death threats are terrifying), I’m ready to talk and have a productive conversation. It’s not about me wanting or needing to be right; it’s about me wanting to be heard. So save the ugly rhetoric and save the “arguments” about what I should or should not be offended by. I say “I” because I cannot speak for the entire feminist community. There are things that offend me that wouldn’t offend others and vice versa. But, we want to be heard and have productive conversations.

http://www.somethingawful.com/game-reviews/

DrPlump posted:

Female gamers are a huge problem for gamer culture. Previously there was no pussy at all and everyone as a group accepted no one was getting laid. You made your decision the video games are here and the girls are not. No one expected these men to get laid and everyone agreed it was entirely their fault for remaining in an area with no girls.

Then something happened with Obama crashing the economy which reduced supply of normal men. Some women turned to gamers hoping for quantity over quality. Suddenly there is pussy in the place where the video games are but there is not enough for everyone. This created a prisoners dilemma over the pussy supply. The same phenomenon is responsible for wars and most other acts of violence and that is when the pussy supply is mostly 1 to 1.

Being gamer nerds they courted the ladies in the fashion they know best. They validated them in every way they could and catered to their every whim. Eventually this created a situation in which every female gamer had their every wish fulfilled and their every thought and action amplified.

Normal women would be instantly turned off by such desperate attempts for their pussy. Many resorted to hiding themselves through anonymity to avoid the constant sexual assault. However the crazy and ugly girls are not used to being sought after and validated. This is a new experience for them but in the worst possible way. It becomes addicting like a drug and due to the disproportionate cock to pussy ratio it is like a 24/7 fire hose.

No one person deserves that much power. It would corrupt anyone. I don't blame Zoe. I blame the thirsty rear end betas.

Cardboard Box A posted:

Yesterday, I got sucked down the rabbit hole of watching anti-Sarkeesian YouTube videos. Many of the arguments against her are laughably ironic, but one in particular stood out to me as not ironic, but just sad. In the video, Anita was accused of shutting down the conversation because she has turned off the comments, ratings, and statistics on her YouTube channel. I can’t really say I blame her. I won’t link the video; you can Google it. But, I will say this accusation was made a year ago. Even though Anita Sarkeesian finds herself once again in the middle of the poo poo storm, the harassment of her has been going on for years. That’s sad and terrifying. (If you haven’t heard of the latest situation, the last couple of posts on this blog cover it with some detail.)

Due to personal stuff over the last month and the latest situation with Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn, my own anxieties about taking about anything feminist have reached a level of code red. Thankfully, I have never had death or rape threats, but, I often find myself in situations like the one I wrote about a few weeks ago in which the rhetoric reaches incredibly low levels with accusations like “ugly whore.” The anxiety and fear of a situation turning ugly can make it pretty hard to carry on.

Last night, we were talking about the somewhat bizarre insult of Social Justice Warrior. I’m no warrior, but the “insult” makes me feel anything but disempowered (as I suppose it’s meant to make me feel). During this conversation, my anxiety levels were going down. I can get on board with being a Social Justice Warrior. That’s what this is all about, right? Social Justice. But, then I got an unexpected text from an old and dear friend that read, “I’ve been FB stalking you today. What’s up with the feminism posts?” And, with that I sort of froze again. Like I said, I’m not a warrior, and I’m becoming increasingly anxious about engaging in a situation with someone that could end with some variation of “ugly whore.” I almost didn’t answer him, then I realized I was being somewhat ridiculous (or maybe cowardly is the better word). This particular person is an old and dear friend because he’s an awesome person. So, I told him some of the stuff that was going on, and I pointed him to this blog. It was a productive conversation.

Many factors have led to this sense of anxiety I now feel. But, I’ve been hearing quite a bit about how this other side feels silenced and wants to be heard. But, if your argument is the one that has always/already been the one heard, then you have always already been heard. (I hate the phrase always already, but it is what it is.) Lately, it seems that I and many others have to fight to be heard and are being told for one reason or another that we don’t really have the right to even be in the conversation. I shouldn’t even say “lately” because it’s always been a battle to be heard, but lately, it seems to be an even more uphill battle.

I don’t believe that Anita Sarkeesian is shutting down the conversation by shutting down the comments. But, like I said, I can’t say I blame her for shutting down the comments. I think we all have seen how ugly and unproductive that can get. And, she is in the conversation in other ways. Those anti-Sarkeesian videos are inherently “in conversation” with her (although those are sometimes also pretty ugly conversations). She’s on Twitter. She wrote:



And, that’s what I think it has to come down to. My anxieties are high and conversations often get ugly, but I think it’s important. Despite this being a terrifying conversation sometimes (yes rape and death threats are terrifying), I’m ready to talk and have a productive conversation. It’s not about me wanting or needing to be right; it’s about me wanting to be heard. So save the ugly rhetoric and save the “arguments” about what I should or should not be offended by. I say “I” because I cannot speak for the entire feminist community. There are things that offend me that wouldn’t offend others and vice versa. But, we want to be heard and have productive conversations.

http://www.somethingawful.com/game-reviews/

DrPlump posted:

Female gamers are a huge problem for gamer culture. Previously there was no pussy at all and everyone as a group accepted no one was getting laid. You made your decision the video games are here and the girls are not. No one expected these men to get laid and everyone agreed it was entirely their fault for remaining in an area with no girls.

Then something happened with Obama crashing the economy which reduced supply of normal men. Some women turned to gamers hoping for quantity over quality. Suddenly there is pussy in the place where the video games are but there is not enough for everyone. This created a prisoners dilemma over the pussy supply. The same phenomenon is responsible for wars and most other acts of violence and that is when the pussy supply is mostly 1 to 1.

Being gamer nerds they courted the ladies in the fashion they know best. They validated them in every way they could and catered to their every whim. Eventually this created a situation in which every female gamer had their every wish fulfilled and their every thought and action amplified.

Normal women would be instantly turned off by such desperate attempts for their pussy. Many resorted to hiding themselves through anonymity to avoid the constant sexual assault. However the crazy and ugly girls are not used to being sought after and validated. This is a new experience for them but in the worst possible way. It becomes addicting like a drug and due to the disproportionate cock to pussy ratio it is like a 24/7 fire hose.

No one person deserves that much power. It would corrupt anyone. I don't blame Zoe. I blame the thirsty rear end betas.

Cardboard Box A posted:

Phil Niekro posted:

remember when one of the weird twitter group implied he would stab a 10 year old on behalf of a twitter girl because the 10 year old quoted Carlin

Cardboard Box A posted:

I don’t believe that Anita Sarkeesian is shutting down the conversation by shutting down the comments. But, like I said, I can’t say I blame her for shutting down the comments. I think we all have seen how ugly and unproductive that can get. And, she is in the conversation in other ways. Those anti-Sarkeesian videos are inherently “in conversation” with her (although those are sometimes also pretty ugly conversations). She’s on Twitter. She wrote:

Cardboard Box A posted:

Yesterday, I got sucked down the rabbit hole of watching anti-Sarkeesian YouTube videos. Many of the arguments against her are laughably ironic, but one in particular stood out to me as not ironic, but just sad. In the video, Anita was accused of shutting down the conversation because she has turned off the comments, ratings, and statistics on her YouTube channel. I can’t really say I blame her. I won’t link the video; you can Google it. But, I will say this accusation was made a year ago. Even though Anita Sarkeesian finds herself once again in the middle of the poo poo storm, the harassment of her has been going on for years. That’s sad and terrifying. (If you haven’t heard of the latest situation, the last couple of posts on this blog cover it with some detail.)

Due to personal stuff over the last month and the latest situation with Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn, my own anxieties about taking about anything feminist have reached a level of code red. Thankfully, I have never had death or rape threats, but, I often find myself in situations like the one I wrote about a few weeks ago in which the rhetoric reaches incredibly low levels with accusations like “ugly whore.” The anxiety and fear of a situation turning ugly can make it pretty hard to carry on.

Last night, we were talking about the somewhat bizarre insult of Social Justice Warrior. I’m no warrior, but the “insult” makes me feel anything but disempowered (as I suppose it’s meant to make me feel). During this conversation, my anxiety levels were going down. I can get on board with being a Social Justice Warrior. That’s what this is all about, right? Social Justice. But, then I got an unexpected text from an old and dear friend that read, “I’ve been FB stalking you today. What’s up with the feminism posts?” And, with that I sort of froze again. Like I said, I’m not a warrior, and I’m becoming increasingly anxious about engaging in a situation with someone that could end with some variation of “ugly whore.” I almost didn’t answer him, then I realized I was being somewhat ridiculous (or maybe cowardly is the better word). This particular person is an old and dear friend because he’s an awesome person. So, I told him some of the stuff that was going on, and I pointed him to this blog. It was a productive conversation.

Many factors have led to this sense of anxiety I now feel. But, I’ve been hearing quite a bit about how this other side feels silenced and wants to be heard. But, if your argument is the one that has always/already been the one heard, then you have always already been heard. (I hate the phrase always already, but it is what it is.) Lately, it seems that I and many others have to fight to be heard and are being told for one reason or another that we don’t really have the right to even be in the conversation. I shouldn’t even say “lately” because it’s always been a battle to be heard, but lately, it seems to be an even more uphill battle.

I don’t believe that Anita Sarkeesian is shutting down the conversation by shutting down the comments. But, like I said, I can’t say I blame her for shutting down the comments. I think we all have seen how ugly and unproductive that can get. And, she is in the conversation in other ways. Those anti-Sarkeesian videos are inherently “in conversation” with her (although those are sometimes also pretty ugly conversations). She’s on Twitter. She wrote:



And, that’s what I think it has to come down to. My anxieties are high and conversations often get ugly, but I think it’s important. Despite this being a terrifying conversation sometimes (yes rape and death threats are terrifying), I’m ready to talk and have a productive conversation. It’s not about me wanting or needing to be right; it’s about me wanting to be heard. So save the ugly rhetoric and save the “arguments” about what I should or should not be offended by. I say “I” because I cannot speak for the entire feminist community. There are things that offend me that wouldn’t offend others and vice versa. But, we want to be heard and have productive conversations.

http://www.somethingawful.com/game-reviews/

Fandyien posted:

feminism is good

Spiky Ooze posted:

I'm going to get romance novels and dildos banned in Murica because I care so much about what fat women are up to.

Fandyien posted:

feminism is good

THE PENETRATOR posted:

http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-rape-in-cyberspace/

Fact

davecrazy posted:

At least tell us where you copied/pasted this from.

Sephiroth_IRA posted:

https://archive.today/yomy2#selection-1183.16-1183.23

Falsum posted:

She probably did receive threats.

Tokamak posted:

You have to be incredibly naive or mentally handicapped to be oblivious to the way coverage is managed by PR; I just don't believe this person's reasoning. On the other hand they wilfully chose to work as a blogger, so maybe they are naive. There's a good reason why some writers like to refer to themselves as 'enthusiast press' and not journalists.

Btw. The Jeff Gerstmann firing saga was confirmed by Jeff himself when their company got brought out by CBSi years ago. Doritos gate was speculation...
The amount of revisionism required to sell the Zoe Quinn drama as journalist corruption is just startling.

The times when journalists were given consoles, TV's, and straight up cheques for money were just innocent misunderstandings.....

BottledBodhisvata posted:

First off, this is laughable. Seriously, read this anyone who is...I dunno, just read this. Read this lovely article and see what the whole crux of this is--it's like "this progressive X shouldn't be allowed because it isn't progressive enough! Sure it's getting results, but SHOULD IT?" and they cite some cancer charity that refused to take money from Reddit? That's dumb too. Take the loving money, you're a loving charity--are you somehow now too good to accept money? You know what, I have a non-profit, I will HAPPILY take Reddit's money.

Hear that, Reddit? PM me, I got a non-profit museum that would absolutely love to accept your guilt money, PLEASE fork it to me.


She has shown a screen capture of a creepy series of tweets, which have apparently inspired her to contact the police.

Some other woman was tweeting about having her unborn baby threatened by harassers too (due to her feminism, I guess). I didn't ask her to prove it because that felt obnoxious, but I inquired as to what should be done, since everyone can agree that harassment is bad. She felt I was diminishing the damages of harassment or whatever, but we came to the conclusion that Twitter could honestly do a lot more to maybe punish people who engage in bad behavior.

Which, actually, raises the question--why HASN'T Twitter said anything about this? Why has nobody reported any of these harassment things to twitter, who has the power to ban users. Wouldn't that be a logical step, if you feel blocking hate speech wasn't sufficient?