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Vahakyla posted:A thing actually that I have heard from a bunch of people where "the cost is a couple of lives and wrong addresses here and there, but the important part is that they don't get to flush the drugs. So an even trade".  is the answer.
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Sep 4, 2014 03:18
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SedanChair posted:But they'll flush the evidence! Throw a flashbang in the window to stun them and keep them from going into flush mode! Is there really no other argument? It's really just "waging the drug war is harder when we can't assault citizens and blow stuff up"? Why is everything so irrevocably hosed?
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Sep 4, 2014 03:30
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Well and apparently the violent thugs will plan a counter-attack. Nevermind that it does not actually happen but confused citizens do fire in self defence. Giving people a minute or two to think about if they actually want to engage in a firefight with the cops outside pretty much just leads to the boring result.
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Sep 4, 2014 03:34
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Lol phone
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Sep 4, 2014 03:34
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Is there really no other argument? It's really just "waging the drug war is harder when we can't assault citizens and blow stuff up"? Like most similar questions, the answer is Nixon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsrxpVUKUK0
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Sep 4, 2014 03:36
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GreyPowerVan posted:See, if someone is banging on my door and shouting, I sure as hell won't be up and out of my room ready to answer the door in 15~ seconds. More than likely I'll be disoriented and think someone's breaking in. My neighbor was banging on my door like that earlier this week, and it took me a long time to answer the door. Not only did I have to wake up and orient myself, I had to actually decide to answer the door. I probably wouldn't have answered the door normally, but the way he was knocking made me think that it was either the police or an emergency. The fucker had lost his phone and wanted me to call him so he could find it, but seriously, it took me forever to wake up and put on just a pair of shorts. If it were cops, they would have been through my door, either shot my cats or let them outside, and I'd be left sitting naked in handcuffs.
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Sep 4, 2014 03:41
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Is this where we post articles about police doing awful things? 'cuz I have a great new article about police doing awful things. I stole this link from the Pet Island chicken thread and am sharing it here for your reading Minnesota police chief decapitates boy's pet chicken the article posted:An Atwater woman has filed a formal complaint against the Atwater police chief for trespassing on her property and killing her young son's pet chicken -- leaving the hen's decapitated head just feet from the backyard chicken coop. Silly lady, you should know that police do that kind of thing to puppies and kittens all the time.
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Sep 4, 2014 08:27
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Strongylocentrotus posted:Is this where we post articles about police doing awful things? 'cuz I have a great new article about police doing awful things. I stole this link from the Pet Island chicken thread and am sharing it here for your reading That is really hosed up. What police officer takes you having illegal chickens so personally that he comes by and kills them himself?
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Sep 4, 2014 08:31
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Pohl posted:That is really hosed up. What police officer takes you having illegal chickens so personally that he comes by and kills them himself? To be fair, Atwater is a town of about a thousand people, so it's not like he has all that much else to do.
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Sep 4, 2014 09:27
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JohnClark posted:The worst part about that raid was that it was not technically a "no-knock" raid. It's difficult to tell exactly because the helmet cam that's recording belongs to a guy who's inside a vehicle, but it sounds like at about :20 or so the cops start shouting. At :28 one of them lightly knocks a few times, and then at :34 a flashbang goes off, followed by the door being rammed at :35. Even if we grant that it's reasonable to expect someone to hear shouting from outside their door and react to it appropriately (which is, I think, unreasonable) that means the guy in the house had, at most, 15 seconds to respond. If we instead take the time of the first knock as starting the clock so to speak, he had 7 seconds to respond. The supreme court and various lower courts have so eviscerated the knock-and-announce requirements that this is considered appropriate procedure, and it requires absolutely no special permission from a judge, any standard search warrant could potentially be executed in this manner and claim to have met the requirement to knock and announce. If I'm recalling this case correctly, his wife was in the next room hiding in a closet with their baby, and had been on the phone with a 911 operator for several minutes about the armed people outside. The on scene cops didn't even know she was there until 911 dispatch finally got them to pick up the radio after her husband was done bleeding out in the hallway. Of course they didn't let medics in during that time in case there was another threat...
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Sep 4, 2014 10:58
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It's funny really, people worry that films and videogames will turn kids into violent criminals but all they really do is cause most citizens to question authority less and make cops extremely violent. Most, if not all, justification for this brutality is scenarios people have seen on TV. The only (non-sociologist) people who have any insight beyond TV are people who regularly interact with the cops and they're immediately dismissed as criminals because the TV shows most people use as the basis of their understanding of what Police do usually show the Police to be effective and reasonable. In reality a criminal will not flush their drugs or arm up in 15 seconds but they sure will in movies. Heck maybe the entire house is rigged to explode, maybe if they're given time to make a phone call they'll carry out their Xantos gambit! Better kill em all before the Cartel armoured company descends on rural Montana!
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Sep 4, 2014 11:13
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demonicon posted:At least if you don't live in a warzone Pretty sure the army was under stricter rules of engagement and preferred to surround a house and wait them out. Usually worked, too.
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Sep 4, 2014 22:09
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I'm liking the push for body cameras in exchange for federal funding. That might actually happen.
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Sep 5, 2014 06:15
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Trabisnikof posted:I'm liking the push for body cameras in exchange for federal funding. That might actually happen.
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Sep 5, 2014 08:50
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Sad Rhino posted:Unfortunately there was too much blood on the lens to determine which officer, if it was in fact an officer and not the suspect himself, who cracked the suspect's skull with a baton. Case closed. That sort of attitude, that if police can subvert oversight we shouldn't do it, is not only proven factually wrong but also is bad anti-corrution strategy. There are many cases where the police dashcam or bodycam has directly refuted the officer's story. That alone makes it worthwhile from an anti-corruption standpoint. Sure there are departments like LAPD where officers have been disabling cameras, but guess what? If those cameras weren't in place, we'd have less proof that there is still systematic corruption in LAPD. Even when they are being disabled dashcams are helping fight corruption. I like this idea because the Feds place all kinds of restrictions on federal funds for other state functions and its a lot harder for departments to say they can't afford cameras when the cameras are attached to getting tons of money.
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Sep 5, 2014 09:04
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For the love of all that is holy, can we please stop saying corruption? There's plenty of anti-corruption oversight and departments will almost* always aggressively investigate, fire, and prosecute corrupt officers. The problem is systematic civil rights abuses by police officers with the encouragement of their departments -- not a few officers trying to make a buck for themselves. * The only exceptions to that I can think of are a few examples in the Chicago suburbs where the FBI actually raided police stations. Even then, where the entire department is in on the scheme, there is aggressive federal oversight.
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Sep 5, 2014 15:07
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Guys, guys, the Police have all the training they need to conduct raids on citizens. Here is a standard department raid training video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWbIxFKtTmE
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Sep 5, 2014 15:38
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KernelSlanders posted:For the love of all that is holy, can we please stop saying corruption? There's plenty of anti-corruption oversight and departments will almost* always aggressively investigate, fire, and prosecute corrupt officers. The problem is systematic civil rights abuses by police officers with the encouragement of their departments -- not a few officers trying to make a buck for themselves. How is a police officer using their powers to disrupt an investigation for their own benefit not corruption? If a police officer forces you to pay for protection, we'd agree that's corruption, but if an officer is forcing himself on you why is that not corruption?
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Sep 5, 2014 18:07
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KernelSlanders posted:For the love of all that is holy, can we please stop saying corruption? There's plenty of anti-corruption oversight and departments will almost* always aggressively investigate, fire, and prosecute corrupt officers. The problem is systematic civil rights abuses by police officers with the encouragement of their departments -- not a few officers trying to make a buck for themselves. Corrupt - Adjective - In breach of ethics. Officers violating civil rights are corrupt. They are enforcing whatever they feel like instead of our actual laws. You don't have to be being paid to be unethical to be corrupt.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:45
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Corrupt - Adjective - In breach of ethics. Corruption -- Dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery Tyranny -- Cruel and oppressive government or rule. When the king says, "Farmers must give the state 90% of their crop under penalty of death," that's Tyranny. When his tax collector says, "Let me sleep with your daughter and I'll tell the king you grew less than you did," that's corruption. The problem with saying corruption when we mean a larger set of, mostly condoned, abusive practices is that corruption is routinely punished and it suggests that the problem is with only a few officers -- not most and not the system. Neither of these are true for the vast majority of what I think most of us would consider abuse. Stop-and-frisk is not corruption. Civil forfeiture is not corruption. No-knock swat raids are not corruption. Throwing flashbangs in baby cribs is not corruption. Shooting unarmed "gang bangers" is not corruption. Inventing probable cause is not corruption. Choking people to death over cigarette taxes is not corruption. Those are all Good Police Work, and we'll never get closer to addressing any of it if we keep saying the problem is police corruption.
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Sep 5, 2014 22:52
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KernelSlanders posted:Corruption -- Dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery How is lying and abusing your power to directly enrichen your department not corruption?
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Sep 5, 2014 23:21
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Trabisnikof posted:How is lying and abusing your power to directly enrichen your department not corruption? All I know is that the semantics of something matters a lot more than the issue in question, which is massive abuse of power 
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Sep 5, 2014 23:26
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The police are... not good.
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Sep 6, 2014 01:16
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Pohl posted:That is really hosed up. What police officer takes you having illegal chickens so personally that he comes by and kills them himself? Apparently the kind who thinks it is appropriate to dispatch skunks by bludgeoning them to death (and also the kind who thinks a skunk is a rodent): Atwater Police Chief Trevor Berger, a man who thinks curbstomping animals is humane posted:Since there were children playing in the adjacent yard, Berger said he didn't want to use his gun to kill the chicken and the shovel was the "safest way to dispatch it." And he wants to get things done for his community: A man who is trying to justify trespassing and taking a hit out on a chicken posted:When asked why it was necessary to kill the young chicken instead of letting it be, Berger said the family was "not supposed to have them in the first place" and that he wanted to give the aggrieved neighbor "some results." See? He delivers results! Give that man a promotion. Hah, just kidding, friends, he's already their chief. The owner is filing a complaint against Chief Berger for trespass, but don't worry, the town of Atwater, MN is rallying around their chief and applauding him for a job well done. A bunch of idiots in Minnesota posted:Many at the meeting not only expressed strong opposition to allowing chickens in town but also voiced support for Berger and the action he took to "dispatch" the chicken being kept against city ordinance. Stop bullying the police, guys.  But seriously, if that's the kind of response
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Sep 6, 2014 04:26
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Old white fuckers are glad to see that poo poo happen as long as it's not happening to them, and that's one of the reasons this poo poo's taken so long to start being addressed or even found outrageous to even a large minority of Americans.
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Sep 6, 2014 04:34
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Trabisnikof posted:How is lying and abusing your power to directly enrichen your department not corruption? Because it's encouraged, whereas lying and abusing your power to directly enrich yourself is punished. It's important that we're clear to distinguish the two. GreyPowerVan posted:All I know is that the semantics of something matters a lot more than the issue in question, which is massive abuse of power It's not just semantics. The problem isn't that corruption is tolerated (it isn't) it's that this is: 
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Sep 8, 2014 02:58
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quote:
One of the reasons why police reform is going to be so challenging is because cops are getting ludicrously rich from legally robbing normal quote:Among Black Asphalt’s features is a section called BOLO, or “be on the lookout,” where police who join the network can post tips and hunches. In April, Aurora, Colo., police Officer James Waselkow pulled over a white Ford pickup for tinted windows. Waselkow said he thought the driver, a Mexican national, was suspicious in part because he wore a University of Wyoming cap. white sauce fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 03:44
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/ Maybe this is a dumb question, but why don't those payments just go into the state's general fund the way normal fines do?
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Sep 8, 2014 03:47
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Because county sheriff and city police are local agencies, governed from the same level they exist in. So, a city or a county. They can do what they want, basically. Forcing a state wide rule on how to force their use of funds would be a considerable effort and a no-starter politically. poo poo sucks. Desert Snow and Black Asphalt, among similar systems and training, are explicitly forbidden in loads of places though. I am also fairly hopeful they won't survive legal challenges. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 03:56
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Vahakyla posted:
What is Desert Snow and Black Asphalt, cause it sounded like Black Asphalt was just another forum for cops.
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Sep 8, 2014 22:01
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Desert Snow is the name of the training program for "aggressive" interdiction, as they say. Black Asphalt is supposed to be used on the road as kind of "instant info bulletin".
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Sep 9, 2014 00:26
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Here's a good WaPo article about the two companies and the man behind them. I'll quote some choice passages. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/07/police-intelligence-targets-cash/ quote:David had developed an uncanny talent for finding cocaine and cash in cars and trucks, beginning along the remote highways of the Mojave Desert. His reputation had spread among police officers after he started a training firm in 1989 to teach his homegrown stop-and-seizure techniques. He called it Desert Snow. Now someone explain to me how this isn't corruption 
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Sep 9, 2014 00:32
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No you see it's not corruption because it doesn't fit an incredibly narrow definition that no one cares about.
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Sep 9, 2014 00:36
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Like mentioned, they are doing poo poo that is really grey, and these systems and similar, there are some others, are prohibited in a lot of places and even more so, just not used in even more. They are fairly small companies with a pretty low userbase. They claim 25,000, but eh. And if they are litigated against, we'll see how it goes. Rumor has it they also lied about being law enforcement officers when they took part in that "joint op" in Oklahoma. So yeah, great going for them. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 00:45
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An insight into how London's Metropolitan Police keep their officers in line: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/09/carol-howard-black-female-police-officer-discrimination-met-tribual-victory London is a diverse city, its police force is not, one of the few black people or women on the elite Armed Response Unit received considerable sexual and racial discrimination, including a push to use her as a double token minority for PR campaigns when she wanted to remain part of the ARU. She complained about the discrimination she faced and took the Met to an employment tribunal. So the Metropolitan Police leaked to the press she had been charged with assault and possession of child pornography. quote:The assault claim, involving her estranged husband, was later dropped, and the “child porn” was of a photo she had shared with him of their sleeping six-year-old daughter. She subsequently won £37k from the tribunal which is a pretty paltry sum considering she'll likely never work in her chosen career again. The Met is rotten to the core.
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Sep 10, 2014 11:44
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Holy crap do Dessert Snow and Black Asphalt sound loving horrible. I have no words for just how awful that really is.
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Sep 10, 2014 13:29
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KomradeX posted:Holy crap do Dessert Snow and Black Asphalt sound loving horrible. I have no words for just how awful that really is. Don't forget that the founders of those corporations are getting obscenely wealthy thanks to their ideas.
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Sep 10, 2014 13:32
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ReV VAdAUL posted:An insight into how London's Metropolitan Police keep their officers in line: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/09/carol-howard-black-female-police-officer-discrimination-met-tribual-victory That's extremely hosed up. So are there no 'good' police forces? Someone just shoot me. EDIT: NOT FOR REAL COPS PLEASE DON'T SHOOT ME IT WAS A FIGURE OF SPEECH
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Sep 10, 2014 13:35
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GreyPowerVan posted:That's extremely hosed up. So are there no 'good' police forces? Just don't get exitedly delirious, civilian.
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Sep 10, 2014 13:49
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KomradeX posted:Holy crap do Dessert Snow and Black Asphalt sound loving horrible. I have no words for just how awful that really is. When I first read those names, I had assumed they were street names for drugs. It appears we have come full circle.
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Sep 10, 2014 14:48
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