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JaucheCharly posted:You know, this constant drinking of wine also has another reason that people tend to forget. Good luck drinking water from a well. Usually there's a cemetry and/or public cesspits nearby in cities. At the end of the 2nd siege of Vienna the wine was running low. That was almost as bad as the walls being breached. This might just be an Early Modern phenomenon due to massive urbanisation, or a circumstance of siege. It certainly was not a universal problem for pre-20th century towns and cities, as discussed here: http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2013/05/21/medieval_europe_why_was_water_the_most_popular_drink.html edit: Not that I think this article is perfect Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 17:49
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I think you know where the cemeteries in Central European cities where built, right? Here, around the cathedral and the other churches. Where is the cathedral? In the middle of the city. You can load up a map of Vienna and then zoom down and look into the courtyards in the buildings that surround St. Stefan. There's still a number of wells left. I think we already spoke about the one in the yard of the Deutschordenshaus in the Singerstrasse that is still well preserved. Although we have 2 large rivers here, people still had wells all throughout the city, because guess what: people are lazy. Yes, the tanners et al. are all on the outskirts or outside the walls, but the public cesspits aren't. So how about the cemeteries in other German cities? Beer isn't the same safe beverage as wine back then.
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Sep 3, 2014 18:27
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would cemeteries really contaminate a water supply all that badly? WHO says that corpses are unlikely to spread "outbreaks of diseases such as typhoid fever, cholera, or plague", but they can transmit gastroenteritis / food poisoning type disease. and this is in reference to corpses scattered about in crisis situations, not buried bodies. wouldn't the coffin / burial method provide some layer of protection to the water table ? http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/hygiene/envsan/tn08/en/
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Sep 3, 2014 19:29
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In medieval cities the church grounds/catacombs were really only for the wealthy; everyone else got put in consecrated ground outside the city. A lot of places did the mass grave -> ossuary thing. Also beer was "safe" (and popular) because it was boiled and had caloric/hydration value. A lot of medieval beer was very low ABV and was intended to be consumed as a water replacement.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:38
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Arquinsiel posted:I've played it. It holds up remarkably well when you substitute nerf guns for the cannon he used. You can still get those cannon as retro toys, in the UK at least; I had one as a kid and I'm not a centenarian.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:51
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feedmegin posted:You can still get those cannon as retro toys, in the UK at least; I had one as a kid and I'm not a centenarian.
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Sep 3, 2014 20:45
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Couldn't you use a Lego pirate cannon as a cheap alternative? (cheap assuming that you have some around, I don't know if they're sold separately...) I'm not sure if they compare in range to the guns Wells used though.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:01
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They're not all that cheap and not particularly powerful either when you're talking about 54mm or so plastic soldiers. You'll knock one or two over, but you REALLY want the cannonballs to plough through a formation and take out an entire file. Actually the most hilariously clever mechanic of the entire game is how close combat is resolved: remove half of both units engaged. Really gets across the risk of trying to poke someone with a sharp thing very well.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:14
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Arquinsiel posted:They're not all that cheap and not particularly powerful either when you're talking about 54mm or so plastic soldiers. You'll knock one or two over, but you REALLY want the cannonballs to plough through a formation and take out an entire file. Peter Cushing was a big fan.
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Sep 3, 2014 22:32
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shallowj posted:would cemeteries really contaminate a water supply all that badly? WHO says that corpses are unlikely to spread "outbreaks of diseases such as typhoid fever, cholera, or plague", but they can transmit gastroenteritis / food poisoning type disease. and this is in reference to corpses scattered about in crisis situations, not buried bodies. wouldn't the coffin / burial method provide some layer of protection to the water table ? From about 1860, at least in America the preferred embalming method included as much as several gallons of arsenic pumped into the body. That certainly does contaminate water supplies, even if the buried corpse doesn't much.
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Sep 3, 2014 22:39
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Arquinsiel posted:Actually the most hilariously clever mechanic of the entire game is how close combat is resolved: remove half of both units engaged. Really gets across the risk of trying to poke someone with a sharp thing very well. Wouldn't that mean charging a depleted unit at an intact unit is always a winning move, since you lose 25 out of the 50 men remaining and your opponent loses 250 out of 500? Melee OP, Wells please fix.
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Sep 3, 2014 22:45
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Why did infantry helmets disappear from European infantry between the time of early pike/musket squares and WW1? And did anyone buck the trend?
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Sep 3, 2014 22:50
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ArchangeI posted:Wouldn't that mean charging a depleted unit at an intact unit is always a winning move, since you lose 25 out of the 50 men remaining and your opponent loses 250 out of 500? "Saul, you can't send Samson and one other dude into melee against 2,000 Philistines, that's clearly bullshit."
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Sep 3, 2014 22:51
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ArchangeI posted:Wouldn't that mean charging a depleted unit at an intact unit is always a winning move, since you lose 25 out of the 50 men remaining and your opponent loses 250 out of 500?
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Sep 3, 2014 23:02
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ArchangeI posted:Wouldn't that mean charging a depleted unit at an intact unit is always a winning move, since you lose 25 out of the 50 men remaining and your opponent loses 250 out of 500? The book's free online, and I think he did fix that--troops surrender and go POW if there's more enemies than friendlies nearby. And I thought melee traded men one to one until one side had twice as many guys as the other?
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Sep 3, 2014 23:06
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AceRimmer posted:Why did infantry helmets disappear from European infantry between the time of early pike/musket squares and WW1? And did anyone buck the trend? Primarily because metal helmets were not strong enough to stop a bullet and melee combat was becoming less common. By ww1, shrapnel was a huge danger and metal helmets tough enough to stop it could be produce cheaply.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:10
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Primarily because metal helmets were not strong enough to stop a bullet and melee combat was becoming less common. By ww1, shrapnel was a huge danger and metal helmets tough enough to stop it could be produce cheaply. Unless you were Russia Who never got metal helmets in the first world war, period. God it must have SUCKED to be a Russian soldier any time from 1914-1945. Especially during the Brusilov offensive.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:12
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Russian soldiers have never had a good time.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:16
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SeanBeansShako posted:Russian soldiers have never had a good time.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:21
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Davin Valkri posted:The book's free online, and I think he did fix that--troops surrender and go POW if there's more enemies than friendlies nearby. And I thought melee traded men one to one until one side had twice as many guys as the other?
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Sep 3, 2014 23:22
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AceRimmer posted:Why did infantry helmets disappear from European infantry between the time of early pike/musket squares and WW1? And did anyone buck the trend? Ned Kelly 
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Sep 3, 2014 23:28
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HEY GAL posted:Sack of Berlin? Dark.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:40
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HEY GAL posted:Sack of Berlin? Literally having neighboring armies 'accidentally' bombard you so they can get to the reichstag before you can.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:41
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Primarily because metal helmets were not strong enough to stop a bullet and melee combat was becoming less common. By ww1, shrapnel was a huge danger and metal helmets tough enough to stop it could be produce cheaply. Helmets of ww1/2 vintage do piss all to stop all but the lowest velocity shrapnel. They were issued to protect against dirt and debris kicked up by HE, largely as a result of increased casualties caused by concussions. Same principle and construction as early 20th c safety helms.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:55
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Cyrano4747 posted:Helmets of ww1/2 vintage do piss all to stop all but the lowest velocity shrapnel. They were issued to protect against dirt and debris kicked up by HE, largely as a result of increased casualties caused by concussions. Same principle and construction as early 20th c safety helms. The book version of Black Hawk Down noted that the Delta Force soldiers preferred using plastic hockey helmets.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:57
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Cyrano4747 posted:Helmets of ww1/2 vintage do piss all to stop all but the lowest velocity shrapnel. They were issued to protect against dirt and debris kicked up by HE, largely as a result of increased casualties caused by concussions. Same principle and construction as early 20th c safety helms. I mostly agree with you, but a helmet at less has a chance to deflect a chunk of high velocity shrapnel moving at an oblique angle which otherwise would open someone's head up like an orange. There's a reason helmet shape evolved so much, even without significant advances in materials technology. Edit: StashAugustine posted:The book version of Black Hawk Down noted that the Delta Force soldiers preferred using plastic hockey helmets. US Special Forces operating in the third world have slightly different operational concerns than a field army in a war versus a peer military.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:59
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Cyrano4747 posted:Helmets of ww1/2 vintage do piss all to stop all but the lowest velocity shrapnel. They were issued to protect against dirt and debris kicked up by HE, largely as a result of increased casualties caused by concussions. Same principle and construction as early 20th c safety helms. What's your source on this? Everything I've read attributes the development of the Brodie battle bowler far more to defence from shrapnel shells, with protection against the random crap from an HE shell being a welcome side benefit.
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Sep 4, 2014 00:12
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MrYenko posted:US Special Forces operating in the third world have slightly different operational concerns than a field army in a war versus a peer military.
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Sep 4, 2014 00:43
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Arquinsiel posted:Operating anywhere really. They seem to worry more about bumping their heads on the door of the insertion vehicle than they do getting shot at. Yeah, this. Those helmets are designed to keep you from getting hurt bumping your head as you enter a room, not to provide ballistic protection.
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Sep 4, 2014 01:34
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MA-Horus posted:Unless you were Russia I was going to make a crack about extending that at least as far back as the crimean war but then I remembered the British had a much worse time of it. I'll have to double check but it was assumed that crimean winters were very mild and thus British soldiers got a crappy tent to sleep in and no coal or wood for heating.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:02
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Regarding little wars, how I read the rules in Melee is that generally speaking you remove a man from each side, one for one. Other stuff happens based on outnumbering and "base to base" contact. Oh also, 'Courage the Adventuress' by Hans Grimmelshausen, do I have options in terms of translations into English and if so should I look for a particular translation or edition? Maybe one has a better fore word or something?
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Sep 4, 2014 02:07
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bewbies posted:Yeah, this. Those helmets are designed to keep you from getting hurt bumping your head as you enter a room, not to provide ballistic protection. Aren't some SOF-esque helmets ballistic? There's a bunch of low-profile ballistic helmets on the market now. From time to time, I see photos of SOF guys in Afghanistan wearing them.
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Sep 4, 2014 06:59
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Bacarruda posted:Aren't some SOF-esque helmets ballistic? There's a bunch of low-profile ballistic helmets on the market now. From time to time, I see photos of SOF guys in Afghanistan wearing them. I think the gwot made a lot of innovations in regards to mil gear and equipment. And Mogadishu was just after the end of the cold war and subsequent drawdown.
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Sep 4, 2014 07:13
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I was going to make a crack about extending that at least as far back as the crimean war but then I remembered the British had a much worse time of it.
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Sep 4, 2014 08:56
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HEY GAL posted:Sack of Berlin? Sack of East Prussia. The horror stories to come out of that period of the war chilled me to the bone.
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Sep 4, 2014 10:03
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100 Years Ago Another quiet day of manoeuvre on the Western Front. The pfennig begins to drop for von Kluck, in command of 1st Army, that he might just be in a little trouble here. His recon reports are telling him about a worrying number of Frenchmen loitering with intent on his right flank, and it soon becomes obvious that if something is not done, they'll slip in behind him and cause all kinds of obstructions in his rear area. He orders one of his reserve corps west to take up a shielding position. The final preparations are made for the Battle of the Marne. This is almost certainly the first and last chance to hold back the tide of the invasion. If it fails, the Allied left wing will be in complete disarray and will surely turn under a finger's further pressure. Lieutenant Edward Spears was at this time a liaison officer at the headquarters of the 5th Army; while we wait, here are some of his observations. quote:I was introduced to General Joffre. I had never even seen a picture of the man and I was astonished to find a big, heavy, bulky individual walking up and down the square with his hands behind his back. He had his kepi tilted well forward to protect his eyes, he had very light eyes. He had pepper-and-salt hair, a pepper-and-salt walrus moustache, and was wearing a black tunic, which fitted extremely badly, sloping outwards from the fourth or fifth button down. Also, ill-fitting red breeches and abominable gaiters, which as a cavalry officer I was very critical of. Meanwhile, mixed in with the BEF's orders of the day, the men are being read something that purports to be an intercepted German order, given by the Kaiser to his generals shortly before marching on Mons. Over the next few days they all hear it, and this sentence is soon to pass into legend. quote:It is my Royal and Imperial command that you concentrate your energies for the immediate present upon one single purpose, and that is that you address all your skill and all the valour of my soldiers to exterminate first the treacherous English, and walk over General French's contemptible little army. It's also frequently dated August 19th and said to emanate from Headquarters at Aix-la-Chapelle (Aachen). Unfortunately, German headquarters was never located there, and after the war the Kaiser maintained that he had never said anything of the sort. There is no German proof that such an order ever existed, and it is therefore almost certainly a whole-cloth propaganda fabrication. Regardless of its origins, it has an electric effect on the tired men. Contemporary accounts are stuffed full of stories of having their spirits roused by hearing themselves described in this way. The phrase "The Old Contemptibles" quickly came to refer to the men of the original BEF in 1914, and when a veterans' association was formed in 1925 specifically to represent them, they could take no other name than "The Old Contemptibles' Association".
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Sep 4, 2014 10:39
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Bacarruda posted:Aren't some SOF-esque helmets ballistic? There's a bunch of low-profile ballistic helmets on the market now. From time to time, I see photos of SOF guys in Afghanistan wearing them. Most of what they wear now are, I was referring to what they were wearing back in the UNOSOM days.
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Sep 4, 2014 14:13
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100 Years Ago At the Marne, the trap is sprung. General Manoury's new 6th Army marches towards the German flank and piles straight into the reserve corps sent there to act as a shielding force. It does what it can to delay the French advance, but soon is forced to retire. General von Kluck is faced with a drastic problem, and has bought himself just enough thinking time to devise a drastic solution. The whole of 1st Army halts and is turned to face west, to meet the 6th Army in strength and give battle aggressively the following day. Intelligence still suggests that the BEF and the 5th Army are falling back in disarray, and that might just leave him enough time to inflict enough of a defeat on the 6th Army to force it back towards Paris before the disorganised enemy can exploit his decision. For their part, the French are not slow to recognise this movement, and every available man in the area is ordered forward. While their 9th, 4th and 3rd Armies are to launch a vicious frontal counter-attack against the German 2nd and 3rd Armies further east (the new 9th army playing a particularly vital role, stopping the 2nd Army from trying to slide westwards), the 5th Army and the fighting remains of the BEF are sent towards the yawning 30-mile gap that's appearing between von Kluck's army and von Bulow's, to force themselves into it as soon as possible. If they can get there before 1st Army can turn and face south again, this is a chance to see the Germans on the run; the worst-case scenario would be the Germans retiring in haste to avoid being flanked themselves. But many of the men are a full day's march away from where they need to be to go into battle... In (bad) pictures: the German assessment on c. 3rd September  The German assessment on 5th September  And what was actually happening on 5th September 
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Sep 5, 2014 00:36
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/world/europe/in-west-fine-line-on-labeling-ukraine-crisis.html This is a NY Times article about how Western governments are tripping over themselves trying not to call Russia's invasion of Ukraine an invasion. Does anybody else who is well-versed in the 1939-45 disaster thing that happened agree with me that this parallels the difficulty of Western governments in talking about the Soviet invasions of 1939-40, especially the Soviet invasion of Poland? "Oh, uh, sorry Poland, we actually only allied with you because we hated and feared Germany so much, not because we wanted to protect you. Also we believe it's not really an invasion anyway."
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Sep 5, 2014 03:58
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As interesting as the parallel is for someone uninvolved in the situation that's far too recent for this thread man. It's just going to degenerate into bad feelings between posters, like it did earlier.Trin Tragula posted:100 Years Ago
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Sep 5, 2014 04:20
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