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ThePhenomenalBaby
May 3, 2011
Its the B-Teams fault because

*makes terrible post about dumb poo poo*

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King of Solomon
Oct 23, 2008

S S

Alabaster White posted:

I disagree. Warping completely kills the feeling of accomplishment from finding a neat shortcut, and encourages lazy, linear map design where they just plonk down bonfires everywhere because there's no reason to create a linked world like in DS1. Effectively having any and all resources available to you from every bonfire in the game gets rid of that feeling of intense risk of not having a safe exit from whatever hellish area you're in, or carrying thousands of boss souls in unknown territories. Obviously NO warping would become tedious when you'd have to track across the game world over and over, so I think a DS1-style endgame-only warp works better, but being able to teleport anywhere and everywhere kills the difficulty and excitement of the game.

While the game wasn't perfect, Demon's Souls had drat fine level design, and many people - myself included - would argue its atmosphere was far more effective than Dark Souls's, so...no? This isn't true at all.

quote:

To be honest, I think most of the problems with DS2 are directly a result of abandoning DS1 systems. The warping system, Soul Memory, whatever they did to Poise, bafflingly designed new Red/Blue covenants, luck/enemy drops and enemy despawning, the whole lot.

Removing warping from Dark Souls was a weird step back for me, but I agree about most of this.

Kite Pride Worldwide
Apr 20, 2009


King of Solomon posted:

While the game wasn't perfect, Demon's Souls had drat fine level design, and many people - myself included - would argue its atmosphere was far more effective than Dark Souls's, so...no? This isn't true at all.

Demon's Souls had exactly what I'm talking about, just in a different style. Each world only has a 'bonfire' at the very beginning of each zone, so every death means you're back to square 1. It's almost like if in DS1, the ONLY bonfires that were in the game were the warpable ones. Remember opening the Cling Ring gate in 1-1? Wasn't that great knowing you finally had a shortcut back from the archstone? Almost every sub-area had neat shortcuts and stuff to find to help deal with the singular spawn point in each zone.

Warping is fine if you limit how you can do it; in DeS you could only warp around from the start/end of each level, and in DS1 you could only warp to pre-designated fires. DS2 flubs this by making warping to and from any bonfire available, but more importantly, it also had way too many bonfires. If they had limited warping in some way or cut down on the excessive numbers of bonfires (cough cough Earthen Peak), it would have been a more interesting and dangerous-feeling world.

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013
So how does the Undead Curse spread? It's implied in the Crown DLCs (and the opening cinematic for Dark Souls 1) that it's just humanity's natural state, but you can also be Cursed by people who wield or are made of the Dark. Do you just wake up one day and find you've got a nasty mark on your shoulder and a craving for souls?

Azran
Sep 3, 2012

And what should one do to be remembered?

SHISHKABOB posted:

whoah im not complaining, i just remember one of the things that really drew me to Dark Souls was that holy cow everything literally fits together

so basically what im saying is stuff it up your rear end because the game is good and THAT is all that matters

Sorry, didn't mean to single you out or anything. :v: It's just like lightning engine chat, it gets mentioned once every week it seems, and while it is valid that it was pretty impressive of DkS1, it tends to lead into some seriously rose-tinted glasses discussion.

Just a knee-jerk reaction, my bad!

ThePhenomenalBaby
May 3, 2011
Assuming the original human form of Manus had children after acquiring the soul that gave him power but before becoming Manus you can just think of it as a hereditary curse. Or maybe he spread his lord soul to similar beings through some non-sexy fashion.

So basically the closer your genetics are to Manus, the more likely you are to become undead. Because its not like everyone is undead, otherwise who does the banishing????????? but I'd imagine by this point in the universe, literally evey person alive has a bit of ol manus in them, so they're all just ticking time bombs. Just like us and Ghengis Khan.

That's all just hearsay from my stupid rear end though. At least I didn't make a youtube video or a podcast about it!!!!!!!!!

Genocyber
Jun 4, 2012

I don't get why people complain about poise, it works way better. Could use a tiny bit of tinkering for PVP, but otherwise it's a huge improvement. You still get some benefit when you're not doing anything, but to poise through an attack you have to be attacking as well, providing incentive to be a bit more active in combat. I do think the poise you need to resist other players' weapons is a bit higher, but it works fantastic for PVE.

ThePhenomenalBaby posted:

So basically the closer your genetics are to Manus, the more likely you are to become undead. Because its not like everyone is undead, otherwise who does the banishing????????? but I'd imagine by this point in the universe, literally evey person alive has a bit of ol manus in them, so they're all just ticking time bombs. Just like us and Ghengis Khan.

Nah, everyone will become undead at some point since that's the natural stat of existence in the Dark Souls world.

King of Solomon
Oct 23, 2008

S S

Alabaster White posted:

Demon's Souls had exactly what I'm talking about, just in a different style. Each world only has a 'bonfire' at the very beginning of each zone, so every death means you're back to square 1. It's almost like if in DS1, the ONLY bonfires that were in the game were the warpable ones. Remember opening the Cling Ring gate in 1-1? Wasn't that great knowing you finally had a shortcut back from the archstone? Almost every sub-area had neat shortcuts and stuff to find to help deal with the singular spawn point in each zone.

Warping is fine if you limit how you can do it; in DeS you could only warp around from the start/end of each level, and in DS1 you could only warp to pre-designated fires. DS2 flubs this by making warping to and from any bonfire available, but more importantly, it also had way too many bonfires. If they had limited warping in some way or cut down on the excessive numbers of bonfires (cough cough Earthen Peak), it would have been a more interesting and dangerous-feeling world.

You're attributing things to the warping that don't follow is the thing. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had good level design, even though you could warp from the beginning in Demon's and from the end in Dark. There are things you can clearly attribute to the decision to allow/disallow warping, like the smithboxes and the existence of a Maiden in Black type character; if you couldn't upgrade weapons at bonfires at ALL in Dark Souls, or if you had to run back to Firelink to level up, the run would be completely unacceptable (as opposed to just kinda annoying when you need to Ascend a weapon.)

The overabundance of bonfires in DaS2 has nothing to do with the ability to warp, it has to do with how they chose to design their levels. Also it wouldn't surprise me if that's also tied to that torch mechanic; hell, one of the bonfires in Earthen Peak is two feet away from the windmill.

ThePhenomenalBaby
May 3, 2011
Well...now it is. Because its been forever since Manus did his initial thing. So whatever humans were before the dark got disseminated into them is pretty moot. The Age of Fire staves off the curse and its decline makes everyone wanna kill each other. The Lords come back in different fashions, the Age of Fire is reset blah blah blah whatever.

I don't think we're actually disagreeing

Cathair
Jan 7, 2008

SunAndSpring posted:

So how does the Undead Curse spread? It's implied in the Crown DLCs (and the opening cinematic for Dark Souls 1) that it's just humanity's natural state, but you can also be Cursed by people who wield or are made of the Dark. Do you just wake up one day and find you've got a nasty mark on your shoulder and a craving for souls?

Humans were originally hollows, probably some form of aimless proto-life originating from the first fire. This also fits with how the Undead respawn at the magic bonfires. The Dark soul was fragmented among them somehow or other and it's what makes them whole, fully living beings. The four Lord souls, of which the Dark soul is one, were found in the first flame and still linked to it somehow. So, as the fire wanes, the power of the Dark soul gets weaker. The humans then have less of the power that makes them whole, so they start turning hollow and falling out of the cycle of life and death.

As for curse damage, the most obvious interpretation is exactly as you've said: it's a manipulation of Dark involving depleting the Dark that's keeping you human, or something like that. I've also wondered whether it's inherently a Dark thing at all, or some sort of more generalized death-magic. In this case, a creature with no Dark in it would just die when hit with enough of it, but for an Undead, you go a little more hollow instead, like you always do when exposed to things that push you beyond the bounds of normal mortality.


One thing that's really missing from this game thus far is any further exploration or explanation of the whole Age of Dark thing pushed by Kaathe in DS1. So, one way of quelling the curse is to rekindle the fires with a shitton of soul power, which in turn makes the Lord souls/Dark soul stronger, in turn keeping humans fully human. But apparently the Dark soul has some inherent power beyond its link to the original flame, and the curse can also be pushed back by acquiring more bits of the Dark soul.

This was Kaathe's whole deal, he was promoting a strategy of telling the gods to go to hell and taking our fate into our own hands by eating more Dark and not needing to feed the fires anymore. DS2 muddles things up a bit, but in DS1 it seemed like the only pitfall of this strategy is the potential for becoming a horrible mutant from absorbing too much Dark. But it looked like it really could work.

Genocyber
Jun 4, 2012

ThePhenomenalBaby posted:

Well...now it is. Because its been forever since Manus did his initial thing. So whatever humans were before the dark got disseminated into them is pretty moot. The Age of Fire staves off the curse and its decline makes everyone wanna kill each other. The Lords come back in different fashions, the Age of Fire is reset blah blah blah whatever.

I don't think we're actually disagreeing

I don't think Manus is all that important in the grand scheme of things. People start becoming hollow as the flame fades because life and death and everything else came about because of it. With it fading the power fades and everyone begins to return to the natural state which is that of being an immortal hollow. That's why Vendrick is just sitting in the Crypt waiting to go hollow, he kind of doesn't give much of a poo poo, just enough to set up measures against Nashandra for w/e poor fool comes along next.

Cathair posted:

This was Kaathe's whole deal, he was promoting a strategy of telling the gods to go to hell and taking our fate into our own hands by eating more Dark and not needing to feed the fires anymore. DS2 muddles things up a bit, but in DS1 it seemed like the only pitfall of this strategy is the potential for becoming a horrible mutant from absorbing too much Dark. But it looked like it really could work.

It doesn't help that we don't really know anything about the primordial serpents, what their end goals are, or even what they are. I mean their name suggests they're from the beginning of the world, but they're not mentioned in the opening cinematic. Or much at all in the first game, really, and not at all in this.

Genocyber fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Sep 5, 2014

ThePhenomenalBaby
May 3, 2011
But then our disagreement stems from whatever the initial state of everyone is, and I don't think it was hollows at all. But it does explain why other beings (Gwyn) go hollow over time regardless. Personally I always thought his hollowfication was special, a side effect of burning out his power to keep the Dark at bay for as long as possible until Frampt could find a worthy successor. After all, its not like Gwyndolin experiences hollowfication and he's been around for a long time.

I do think Manus is important in some sense, because it doesn't seem like the non-humans have any attribute similar to Dark, which is the x factor important to Kaathe. Its the thing that makes them dangerous and what Gwyn feared.

ThePhenomenalBaby fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Sep 5, 2014

Genocyber
Jun 4, 2012

ThePhenomenalBaby posted:

But then our disagreement stems from whatever the initial state of everyone is, and I don't think it was hollows at all.

What do you think it is? Cause the intro cutscene from Dks shows hollow-like creatures shambling toward the first flame, and Vendrick outright says that's what it is.

quote:

One day fire will fade, and dark will become a curse. Men will be free from death, left to wander eternally. Dark will again be ours, and then our true shape.

And seeing as how they added him and this dialogue in with the DLCs, it would be kind of odd for that to not be true.

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Genocyber posted:

It really wasn't. All it really did was make the world feel like a shoebox, compared to the much larger feeling DeS and Dks2. Not to mention having to traipse around everywhere was a pain in the rear end.

The only time it really felt tedious to me was before the patch letting the Lordvessel warp to Andre. Having replayed both, I prefer how DS1 did it.

quote:

It's implied in the Crown DLCs (and the opening cinematic for Dark Souls 1) that it's just humanity's natural state, but you can also be Cursed by people who wield or are made of the Dark. Do you just wake up one day and find you've got a nasty mark on your shoulder and a craving for souls?

It's odd that Solaire mentioned he intentionally became undead, but nothing else in the series suggests that you can do so or brings up the idea. I'm still curious how humanity runs wild, too. Apparently everyone in Oolacile got their humanity ate by Manus so that's how they turned, but what about Manus himself? His soul was also just one giant lump of humanity.

ThePhenomenalBaby
May 3, 2011
I really honestly didn't remember that detail at all, but it all fits I suppose. Eh whatever we've spent too many words on this anyway.

Then it must really suck to be non-dragons

And also dragons

Don't be anything is the lesson.

Genocyber
Jun 4, 2012

ThePhenomenalBaby posted:

I really honestly didn't remember that detail at all, but it all fits I suppose. Eh whatever we've spent too many words on this anyway.

Indeed, let's talk about how great a level the shrine of amana is instead.

Fajita Queen
Jun 21, 2012

It's really fun to invade people there once you've learned the layout of all the edges and such.

ThePhenomenalBaby
May 3, 2011
Shrine of Amana is

Extremely Good

and

Very Beatable

All things I enjoy to a great degree









Yes.

Fereydun
May 9, 2008

Cathair posted:

This was Kaathe's whole deal, he was promoting a strategy of telling the gods to go to hell and taking our fate into our own hands by eating more Dark and not needing to feed the fires anymore. DS2 muddles things up a bit, but in DS1 it seemed like the only pitfall of this strategy is the potential for becoming a horrible mutant from absorbing too much Dark. But it looked like it really could work.

kaathe's whole covenant is about murdering people and stealing their souls to become creepy dark mutants. plus all of oolacile and artorias bein' freaky dark mutants. that dude is suspect as gently caress

i think it's just the usual momento mori kinda thing where having life also means that death will come. so fire creates light and dark, both which sustain life of various creatures. humanity sits in a balance of both, with too much darkness leading to hollowing (and freaky mutations). fire fades and darkness comes to take away everything that would define what a person would see as life (in ds2's case, identity/memories) without actually taking their life because mystic bullshit

basically humans are the poo poo and everyone else can eat a dick HUMAN SUPREMACY

Grimwall
Dec 11, 2006

Product of Schizophrenia
Is anybody else having trouble executing the guard break and jumping strong attack (forward + light OR strong attack) in PC with a logitech gamepad? I cannot for the life of me do it consistently. 2 out of 10 tries is my story. Any help would be great!

Nahxela
Oct 11, 2008

Execution

Fereydun posted:

kaathe's whole covenant is about murdering people and stealing their souls to become creepy dark mutants. plus all of oolacile and artorias bein' freaky dark mutants. that dude is suspect as gently caress
Hey man, dude gives you a spooky shield hand that can also let you make out with other dudes. He's cool with me.

Deformed Church
May 12, 2012

5'5", IQ 81


So am I right in remembering the Dark Souls LoreMasters have concluded that this is just another round of a cycle that's been going for ages and keep causing everything to get good and then get sucky again as the fires are rekindled and then dark stomps them again? If so, was dark souls 1 actually the first time, as it seems to be presented?

Also, dish for me on the theory than drangleic is actually the same place as lordran but really in the future.

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

MooCowlian posted:

So am I right in remembering the Dark Souls LoreMasters have concluded that this is just another round of a cycle that's been going for ages and keep causing everything to get good and then get sucky again as the fires are rekindled and then dark stomps them again? If so, was dark souls 1 actually the first time, as it seems to be presented?

Also, dish for me on the theory than drangleic is actually the same place as lordran but really in the future.

Yeah that's about right. I still don't think Drangleic is Lordran though because that was on top of a giant-rear end tree and Drangleic's next to an ocean. Maybe all the fires caused some global warming to happen.

Proposition Joe
Oct 8, 2010

He was a good man

RBA Starblade posted:

Yeah that's about right. I still don't think Drangleic is Lordran though because that was on top of a giant-rear end tree and Drangleic's next to an ocean. Maybe all the fires caused some global warming to happen.

Have you been to Shrine of Amana or Aldia's Keep lately?

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Proposition Joe posted:

Have you been to Shrine of Amana or Aldia's Keep lately?

There's also Majula and the ruins at Tower of Heide which everyone thinks is Anor Londo's remains, and is currently submerged. The map of Drangleic shows the coast too. In Dark Souls though you go down the great hollow and end up in Ash Lake. The whole game takes place on the tree. You had to take a giant bird from another region of the world to get there.

Wait, did all the NPCs in DS1 do that?

RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Sep 5, 2014

Nahxela
Oct 11, 2008

Execution
Considering that Vendrick went off to the land of giants to go pick up the Throne/the Kiln, I'd expect Anor Londo/Lordran to be over in Giant land.

sirlurksalot
Sep 13, 2011

Grimwall posted:

Is anybody else having trouble executing the guard break and jumping strong attack (forward + light OR strong attack) in PC with a logitech gamepad? I cannot for the life of me do it consistently. 2 out of 10 tries is my story. Any help would be great!

I played the entire game through with a Logitech F-310 before I even realised that those moves weren't just taken out of the game from Dark Souls one, then I tried every direct input/x-input to X-Box 360/DS3 emulator I could find. The only thing that works is toggling input modes and using the D-pad for movement input and even that's not perfect (6 out of 10 maybe?). I think it has something to do with PC displaying too many FPS over the console version and the command input window being to short for logitechs analog input. The only real solution I found is using a 360 controller.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

Proposition Joe posted:

Have you been to Shrine of Amana or Aldia's Keep lately?
Shrine of Amana is just filled with tears.

Cathair
Jan 7, 2008

MooCowlian posted:

So am I right in remembering the Dark Souls LoreMasters have concluded that this is just another round of a cycle that's been going for ages and keep causing everything to get good and then get sucky again as the fires are rekindled and then dark stomps them again? If so, was dark souls 1 actually the first time, as it seems to be presented?

Also, dish for me on the theory than drangleic is actually the same place as lordran but really in the future.

That's more or less the consensus, except that the dark isn't stomping anything. The fire just burns down on its own, as part of some natural cycle that no one really understands and everyone has been loving with out of fear since the age of the first gods.

This is one thing that I like a lot about Dark Souls lore, actually. Having your standard meaningless cliche of light vs dark would be the easy way to go, but they avoid it by making the dark both morally ambivalent and linked to the same power source as the light and everything else. The fragments of Manus aren't out to gently caress over the world just for the hell of it, there's nothing to suggest that they care about the cycle at all, they're just driven by the desire to acquire power and survive.

Proposition Joe
Oct 8, 2010

He was a good man

RBA Starblade posted:

There's also Majula and the ruins at Tower of Heide which everyone thinks is Anor Londo's remains, and is currently submerged. The map of Drangleic shows the coast too. In Dark Souls though you go down the great hollow and end up in Ash Lake. The whole game takes place on the tree. You had to take a giant bird from another region of the world to get there.

Wait, did all the NPCs in DS1 do that?

I think that Dark Soul's world design had some influence from Norse mythology, Yggdrasil in particular. Its possible that Lordran, being the "Land of the Ancient Lords" is an Asgard analogue instead of just another kingdom. Some people have hypothesized that the stone pillars at the end of Aldia's Keep are petrified arch trees, which would mean that Lordran gone and that Dark Souls II takes place in some sort of Midgard.

edit: As for Heide's I don't think its literally Anor Londo, It may have been connected but I think its more likely to be a really ancient kingdom that existed between Lordran and Shulva/et al that was destroyed by the dark (which would also explain dark Orenstein.)

Proposition Joe fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Sep 5, 2014

Grimwall
Dec 11, 2006

Product of Schizophrenia

sirlurksalot posted:

I played the entire game through with a Logitech F-310 before I even realised that those moves weren't just taken out of the game from Dark Souls one, then I tried every direct input/x-input to X-Box 360/DS3 emulator I could find. The only thing that works is toggling input modes and using the D-pad for movement input and even that's not perfect (6 out of 10 maybe?). I think it has something to do with PC displaying too many FPS over the console version and the command input window being to short for logitechs analog input. The only real solution I found is using a 360 controller.

Thanks! I guess they only used xbox controllers while developing for PC. Anybody else found any solution except buying a 360 pad?

Captain Matchbox
Sep 22, 2008

BOP THE STOATS
when my old 360 controller started getting lovely i got a dualshock 4 and its real nice with the driver

even has a light you can change, but why you'd have anything but hot pink selected is beyond me

poptart_fairy
Apr 8, 2009

by R. Guyovich
If I'm powerstancing rapiers would there be much point in taking strength beyond the minimum requirements?

Also, killing the Ratbro Mastodon after you kill the host seems like a much harsher 'gently caress you' than just emoting at them, haha.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
Surely if you get invaded in Amana you could just chomp a Giant Seed and watch the fireworks (from a safe distance)

maybe wouldn't work so great if the invader immediately saw you as they were warping in though.

SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012

Fun Shoe

ThePhenomenalBaby posted:

This argument is way worse than all the other dark souls thread arguments just fyi

You're gay?

SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012

Fun Shoe

SunAndSpring posted:

So how does the Undead Curse spread? It's implied in the Crown DLCs (and the opening cinematic for Dark Souls 1) that it's just humanity's natural state, but you can also be Cursed by people who wield or are made of the Dark. Do you just wake up one day and find you've got a nasty mark on your shoulder and a craving for souls?

Everyone and everything has a desire for souls cause they're the source of all life. Right?

Grayshift
May 31, 2013

Grimwall posted:

Is anybody else having trouble executing the guard break and jumping strong attack (forward + light OR strong attack) in PC with a logitech gamepad? I cannot for the life of me do it consistently. 2 out of 10 tries is my story. Any help would be great!

I have about a 5% success rate trying to do guard breaks and jump attacks with just my controller. My stupid solution? I rebound the keyboard control for walk forward to spacebar. Pressing that concurrently with R1/R2 works 90% of the time now - but you have to stop pressing forward on the analog stick first.

Nakar
Sep 2, 2002

Ultima Ratio Regum

Fereydun posted:

kaathe's whole covenant is about murdering people and stealing their souls to become creepy dark mutants. plus all of oolacile and artorias bein' freaky dark mutants. that dude is suspect as gently caress

i think it's just the usual momento mori kinda thing where having life also means that death will come. so fire creates light and dark, both which sustain life of various creatures. humanity sits in a balance of both, with too much darkness leading to hollowing (and freaky mutations). fire fades and darkness comes to take away everything that would define what a person would see as life (in ds2's case, identity/memories) without actually taking their life because mystic bullshit
The implication - and the reason I suspect there's no ending choice in 2 - is that everything is a cycle and what you need to do is cope with it and decide for yourself whether you care or not, because nothing you do is going to change anything in the grand scheme of things. The Emerald Herald's dialogue at various points supports this, as does Vendrick's. She mentions that whatever plan there was for her failed, and the curse can't be stopped. She mentions the cycle of souls flourishing and fading will all play out again whether you accept or reject it. Hell, the first thing she says to you is "Are you the next monarch?" And if the DLC is any indication (to say nothing of Straid and Gilligan's dialogue, among others) kings and kingdoms come and go all the time.

The Abyss once had form, but then dissipated.
And yet, traces of its existence endured.
Each fragment, thirsting for power, spread Dark, with no relent.


I think people are ignoring the existential threat of the Abyss though. Vendrick mentions it no longer has the form it once had (although the Dark Chasm of the Abyss still exists, but it's less abyssal than it was in DS1), but it seems that it keeps trying to remanifest in the dark queens that are spawned from Manus's remains. They're the ones who could break the cycle... by bringing everything to nothingness. Not exactly a superior alternative.

Seeker of fire, coveter of the throne.
I am Vendrick, ruler of Drangleic.
As flame rises, so does it fade. Such is the way of things.


The game isn't terribly clear on the relationship between Fire and Dark but given the mechanics in DS1 it seems like Humanity is a thing which can feed the flames, and withholding it from the flames causes the Abyss. Over time in a given cycle souls and Humanity flow into powerful figures (possibly those who hold or are influenced by the Great Souls) and become less commonplace elsewhere. The flames try to preserve themselves by sucking Humanity out of people, leading them to become undead. The later you go in a cycle, the more people are undead and hollowed and the more potent the Darksign. It's simply the natural state of the world; the Dark Soul is the fuel for the First Flame. What Manus was trying to do, I think, was withhold Humanity from the flames entirely. That's essentially what Kaathe asks you to do in the Dark Lord ending: Hold all the Souls and Humanity for yourself and tell the First Flame to go gently caress itself.

I suspect you 'rekindle' the First Flame when you collect all of the errant souls and Humanity that got sucked up into the Great Souls and then feed it into the First Flame, causing it all to burn brightly and "souls to flourish anew," essentially restarting a cycle where things are fine for a while until souls/Humanity start collecting around the Great Souls again (although it's worth noting that in DS2 you can beat the game without actually acquiring the Great Souls, but the Emerald Herald suggests you shouldn't). Even if you ignore this, someone will do it; in DS1 if you summon Solaire for Gwyn you can see that he linked the fire in his world, so what you do won't necessarily matter. Likewise even if Vendrick refused to link the fire it doesn't mean you won't. Something will always happen to restart the cycle... unless the daughters of Manus win, I guess.

The curse effect, and the "undead curse" spreading, are probably just the forcible extraction of Humanity. Otherwise its "spread" is not actually a disease or something that can be stopped or contained, it's just the flames picked you as their fuel source. The only thing that can stop that is to rekindle them so they stop sucking it out of humans for a while... but only a while.

We are feeble vessels, with feebler souls.
We would cast aside the prop of life, only to face greater hardship.


What's interesting, to me, is Vendrick's perspective. He could have done this. He subdued the Great Ones, he built the kingdom, he could have taken the throne and rekindled the First Flame, but he refused to. Why? Even if he was afraid of Nashandra, how could she have stopped him? If we could defeat her surely he could've, he's loving huge. I think it's something deeper than that, based on his dialogue from the memory:

Seeker of fire, conqueror of Dark.
I, too, sought fire, once.
With fire, they say, a true king can harness the curse.
A lie. But I knew no better...
Seeker of fire, you know not the depths of Dark within you.
It grows deeper still, the more flame you covet.
Flame, oh, flame...
I am king of this wretched, unravelled kingdom.
I subdued the Giants, and claimed their strength.
So that I might step closer to fire...
Drangleic will fall, the fire will fade, and the souls of old will reemerge.
With Dark unshackled, a curse will be upon us...
And men will take their true shape...


But the latest dialogue is... even odder, I think:

Dark was seen as a curse.
Shadow is not cast, but born of fire.
And, the brighter the flame, the deeper the shadow.
Inherit fire, and harness the Dark.
Such is the calling of a true leader...


I'm not sure what Vendrick actually wants and why he felt he had to gently caress off to do it, aside from the precautions he took to ensure Nashandra can't get at the First Flame once he left. He seems to be saying that there's something a "true leader" can do that he couldn't (or wouldn't), but I'm not sure what exactly. But it's interesting that he says "inherit fire, and harness the Dark" after saying three or four times that he tried to get closer to flame and regrets it. DS2 feels like it has a lot more in the way of Buddhist philosophical influences, although it doesn't necessarily advance them or try to explain them in much detail, but there's a lot of cycle of life/death/history and the acceptance of it running through the game lore and NPC dialogue. Lucatiel's good ending to her questline is essentially your presence giving her just enough grasp on her memory to realize she needs to accept her own death, after she spent all the meetings leading up to it afraid of losing her sense of self and desperate to fight against it. The entire game might be this for the player character, even.

Praseodymi
Aug 26, 2010

I'd never seen all that Vendrick dialogue before, but he seems to be saying he tried to do the DS1 thing and keep the flame going, when actually there is some ultimate way to manage both fire and dark that is the real best outcome for humanity.

But we all know From won't do something like actually end a series any time soon.

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SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012

Fun Shoe
The idea is that people are addicted to video games and every time you get a new one the cycle starts anew: go through the game and beat it.

The Emerald Herald is your mom: please break this cycle and free yourself, and me.

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