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Deviant posted:Isn't this just a less good Entreat the Angels, in black? Entreat doesn't let you scream "LET'S OPEN THIS PIT UP" when you windmill slam it. So this is strictly better
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Sep 5, 2014 15:59
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Last week I played a game with my GB Dredge deck where I had a decent board state with a decent amount of creatures in the yard, but like 12 lands in there and nothing to do with them. With delve and in the decks that need it, this card is quite good.
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Sep 5, 2014 15:59
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Lord Of Texas posted:Are people just missing that this card has Delve? I think the people saying this card is poo poo are the ones who have never used tombstalker in a constructed deck before.
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Sep 5, 2014 15:59
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Okay, guys, while I understand Empty of the Pits isn't as exciting as hoped for, you're all looking at the card one dimensionally. This is in Standard with Nykthos. Depending on how many graveyard enablers we get and how good they are (and we already have quite a few), this card can be powered up in a variety of ways. It's not going to have the raw power of, say, a green card, but it's going to give you more than enough to win or threaten a win at varying points in the game.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:00
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Seriously people, stop undervaluing delve. You can remove 10 cards to get 5 2/2s for BBBB at instant speed. That's really good. Tombstalker is 8mana for a 5/5 flier and its heavily played in legacy.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:00
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Zorak posted:You're reaaaaally undervaluing Delve. Getting a ton of poo poo into your GY is easy. Yeah, when we have cards like Satyr Wayfinder and Commune with the Gods plus whatever Delve Enablers are in Khans that card is potentially very powerful. The mana is difficult, but we have fetches and scrylands and painlands and manaconfluence, it can easily be done if a deck wants it.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:01
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Deviant posted:Isn't this just a less good Entreat the Angels, in black? Entreat is almost unplayable without deck manipulation soooo. Anyway like, BBBB for 5 2/2's (10 cards in the bin) seems pretty solid. 2BBBB for 3 zombos (4 cards delved) seems fair if not great.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:01
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Satyr Wayfinder let's you put a non basic land into your hand, correct? Are there any other cards that do that in standard?
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Sep 5, 2014 16:01
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Samael posted:I think the people saying this card is poo poo are the ones who have never used tombstalker in a constructed deck before. I don't think that is a fair assessment, tombstalker seems clearly awesome from the moment you look at it.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:01
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Lord Of Texas posted:Are people just missing that this card has Delve? The math is just kind of ugly since Delve is not convoke. At minimum, you are paying BBBB, so unless you have a deep graveyard to throw away, which is unlikely on turn 4, it looks like 4 mana and 2 cards in the yard for a 2/2 with flash 4 mana and 4 cards (best mulch and satyr wayfinder) for 2 2/2s with flash etc. Spending any mana beyond the first 4 Black makes the card feel so bad. Then it folds to wrath and makes any other delve cards in your deck awful, and if it gets countered, the delved creatures are part of the casting cost so they're gone.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:02
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Gensuki posted:So you pay 4 black mana, then exile 2 cards from your graveyard to get a 2/2 zombie? On the other hand, in edh I can go "Oh. you just wrathed. end of your turn, pay BBBB, exile 16 cards, have 16 power of giys attacking." More if my commander has buffs for Zombies. It's nice, but not amazing.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:02
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TheKingofSprings posted:Satyr Wayfinder let's you put a non basic land into your hand, correct? Are there any other cards that do that in standard? Satyr Wayfinder lets you grab any land not just basics from among the revealed cards. You play him once and grab a fetchland, and crack the fetch, you've just added 2 zombies to your Empty the Pits
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Sep 5, 2014 16:02
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This looks clearly awesome to me? It's a very powerful effect that's well supported in standard. The instant is what drives it for me.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:03
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TheKingofSprings posted:It's not that great so far so I can understand why! Look at this wrong opinion, everyone. Look at it.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:03
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You guys are really underestimating how many cards can be put into the yard early in the game through Commune, Kruphix's Insight, Satyr Wayfinder and Nyx Weavers.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:05
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ungulateman posted:
odiv fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 16:05
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Whoa glad I reread the card I assumed it was a sorcery from the effect itself. Seems a bit better. I guess we'll just have to see how it pans out as a monoblack finisher.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:06
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Sickening posted:I don't think that is a fair assessment, tombstalker seems clearly awesome from the moment you look at it. Yeah, you are right but making it delve really improves it's playability.BUG has a lot of graveyard synergistic and self mill cards now (Kruphix's Insight, commune of the gods, sidisi to name a few) and with nighthowler and pharika still in rotation I can see it being a really strong golgari/BUG deck with old friends caryatid/courser plus maybe new jace/fetches.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:06
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Basically I'm reading this card as: 4 Black Instant, "Exile X cards. For every 2 cards you exile this way, put a Black 2/2 Zombie token onto the battlefield tapped." And suddenly, it seems a lot better. I kind of want one for my Nekusar deck just because without Reliquary Tower, I'm gonna be discarding a lot.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:09
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It's VERY easy to get stuff into your yard. GB Yard is going to be a deck.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:10
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The biggest downside to this is running into a wrath, but since it's an instant it dodges the sorcery-speed wrath effects. EOT make 8 zombies, untap, swing on you for 16+.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:12
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No Temur legend today?  They keep doing this thing where they'll spoil four out of five of a cycle I'm looking forward to in the first 2-3 days of spoiler season, and then make me wait a week for the last one.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:12
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mcmagic posted:It's VERY easy to get stuff into your yard. GB Yard is going to be a deck. Why did everyone suddenly forget that the set has fetches in it? Any color combo will be able to get cards in the yard early and fast.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:13
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TheKingofSprings posted:For Delve to actually be good it really, really needs a reliable way to retrieve a card from the graveyard. Someone mentioned it in passing, but Nyx Weaver feels crucial in the archetype.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:14
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:The biggest downside to this is running into a wrath, but since it's an instant it dodges the sorcery-speed wrath effects. EOT make 8 zombies, untap, swing on you for 16+.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:14
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Gensuki posted:
The wraths in this upcoming format cost 5 so far and then you're still one-for-oneing against them. Seems pretty reasonable. Count Bleck posted:Basically I'm reading this card as: 4 Black Instant, "Exile X cards. For every 2 cards you exile this way, put a Black 2/2 Zombie token onto the battlefield tapped." Yes, but you also have the option to pay mana if your graveyard's been emptied, so the card is never dead. The main thing that makes delve cards kind of awkward compared to lingering souls or unburial rites is they don't directly interplay with being milled out themselves and do theoretically compete with each other for resources, so some number tweaking on making sure you min/max the effect of your delve cards is probably necessary. Since draw steps are necessary to put delve spells into your hand, you'll still need to run a critical number of actual delve cards. It might also be worth nothing that logic knot and tombstalker get played in lists that don't go out of their way to bin cards, but those cards are at a pretty high power level already. It's a mechanic with some depth, for sure.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:14
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Boxman posted:Someone mentioned it in passing, but Nyx Weaver feels crucial in the archetype. I'm not a huge fan of Nyx Weaver, it's pretty slow without much to show for it.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:21
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They editing the article right now or something?quote:Creating ten tokens takes twenty-four mana. It may seem like an impossible feat, but I can tell you that it isn't. There are more than enough ways in Khans of Tarkir to get some cards in your graveyard, and since there will no longer be an This paragraph just cuts off.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:23
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WHO DELVED THE END OF THE ARTICLE?! WHO WAS IT? Guess its gone forever and is now at least 3 2/2 zombies.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:24
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Zoness posted:The wraths in this upcoming format cost 5 so far and then you're still one-for-oneing against them. Seems pretty reasonable. Yeah, a base black control deck can definitely get a ton of mileage out of this card just by trading resources, fetches, sign in blood, Bile Blight, Thoughtseize, Read the Bones, Hero's Downfall, all these can go in the same deck, to quite good effect. A mono black control deck, akin to Mono Black Devotion Lists we have seen previously, can easily get enough cards in the yard over the course of the game to make Empty the Pits a powerful card. That deck COULD have a reason to run fetches even with a entirely black card pool to help feed the delve.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:26
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Zombies confirm another year of MBC domination. Yay! Meanwhile We goons still think UW revelation was worse.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:26
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Madmarker posted:Yeah, a base black control deck can definitely get a ton of mileage out of this card just by trading resources, fetches, sign in blood, Bile Blight, Thoughtseize, Read the Bones, Hero's Downfall, all these can go in the same deck, to quite good effect. A mono black control deck, akin to Mono Black Devotion Lists we have seen previously, can easily get enough cards in the yard over the course of the game to make Empty the Pits a powerful card. That deck COULD have a reason to run fetches even with a entirely black card pool to help feed the delve. Phenax self-mill into Pit into Phenax opponent-mill 
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Sep 5, 2014 16:28
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 Neat.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:29
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Count Bleck posted:
I like when they actually give the Johnny cards a reasonable mana cost to throw them a bone. e: does this stack in multiples? The replacement-effect wording makes it weird to figure out how that works, but I think it does.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:30
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The remaining Tri-lands:  
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Sep 5, 2014 16:32
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Dan, guess I held on to my misty rainforest a month too long
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Sep 5, 2014 16:32
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:
So is Entreat the Angels (in the one deck that actually runs it).
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Sep 5, 2014 16:33
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Zoness posted:The wraths in this upcoming format cost 5 so far and then you're still one-for-oneing against them. Seems pretty reasonable. Again, this basically requires this to be your only Delve card. Otherwise, it's not a 1 for 1, because the wrath essentially becomes land destruction. Spending nearly any amount of mana on this is wrong. 6 mana for a 2/2 with flash? 8 mana for a tricky 4/4 with flash? That gets you Colossus of Akros, and at the next stage (10 mana for a 6/6 with flash) would be the equivalent of letting you monstrous it. There are better things to do with mana in standard, and certainly in modern. And of course, this is way too big to be good in limited. This really needs to be paid in corpses to be a good card.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:33
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The more I think about Empty the Pits the more shivers go up my spine. This card is nuts and awesome. Star City isn't taking preorders on it but if it preorders at any reasonable price I'm going to pick up a playset. If you're playing against a black/green self-mill player with 15-18 cards in their yard on Turn 4-5 and they have this, you must be holding an Aetherspouts or something like Thaumaturge + Glimpse/Icy Blast or you lose on the spot.L0cke17 posted:So is Entreat the Angels (in the one deck that actually runs it). Given that that entire deck's shtick is setting up Entreat the Angels and it devotes lots of card slots to doing so, I would say that yes, Entreat is better in that deck. Empty the Pits probably won't be a Legacy role-player. Notably, Miracles also is able to run Terminus, and in the absence of that card I would argue that setting up the miracle engine is a little too clunky for Legacy-- having that kind of protection from creature-based strategies while you set up for a game-ending Entreat is essential. While in Standard, Empty the Pits is going to be way, way, way better than Entreat the Angels. I can even visualize a Legacy deck that uses self-mill to set up a huge one, but since you'd need to dread return a Flame-kin Zealot and have an Amulet of Vigor out it's probably not better than what Dredge and Burrito are already doing. DAD LOST MY IPOD fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 16:34
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Count Bleck posted:
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Sep 5, 2014 16:36
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