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Modern Day Hercules posted:That's pretty much how it was said when it was originally written, but then Spanish had some sound changes. I'm not a linguist, but I believe that "x" represented a voiceless velar fricative in sixteenth century Spanish away from the voiceless postalveolar fricative that it had been in the past, so even in 1605 Don Quixote was closer to the current pronunciation than it would have been to "Don Quichotte." An actual example of the change in pronunciation despite the spelling would be "México" or the now obsolete "exército," which became "ejército."
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Sep 4, 2014 18:45
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Texas, too. Reformed Spanish uses a J there instead.
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Sep 4, 2014 18:56
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King Hong Kong posted:I'm not a linguist, but I believe that "x" represented a voiceless velar fricative in sixteenth century Spanish away from the voiceless postalveolar fricative that it had been in the past, so even in 1605 Don Quixote was closer to the current pronunciation than it would have been to "Don Quichotte." Cervantes wrote Don Quixote during the Early Modern period of Spanish, which would be probably after the sounds spelled as "x" and "j"/"g" had merged (along with the "c"/"ç" and "z" pair), but probably before the realization of the resulting sound shifted back to the velar position.
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Sep 4, 2014 19:07
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MODS CURE JOKES posted:Texas, too. Reformed Spanish uses a J there instead. I don't know enough about the origins of the word Texas to know whether the word was ever pronounced "Teshas" as opposed to "Techas/Tejas," while Mexico had been pronounced like "Meshico" before the pronunciation shifted in the sixteenth century.
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Sep 4, 2014 19:16
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King Hong Kong posted:I don't know enough about the origins of the word Texas to know whether the word was ever pronounced "Teshas" as opposed to "Techas/Tejas," while Mexico had been pronounced like "Meshico" before the pronunciation shifted in the sixteenth century. The Caddo word it's borrowed from is "táyshaʔ", so it almost certainly did have a "sh" in it at some point.
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Sep 4, 2014 19:18
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So, how DO you pronounce all these? Specifically "Khan" and "quixote".
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Sep 4, 2014 20:05
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion: We tortured some folks > politically-loaded pronunciations
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Sep 4, 2014 20:10
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Sep 4, 2014 20:49
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Redeye Flight posted:So, how DO you pronounce all these? Specifically "Khan" and "quixote". You basically ignore the K in Khan. It's sort of halfway between Han and Hun in pronunciation. Khagan (Great Khan) you almost totally elide the g as well, so it ends up being Ha-an. Similarly, Khanate is literally pronounced something like Han-aht. Of course, it's usually easier to just use the older English pronunciation. It's just worth knowing that, for example, if someone pronounces the Ilkhanate "Eel-Han-aht" that they're referring to what you might call the "Ill-Khan-ate." Patter Song fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 4, 2014 21:02
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Redeye Flight posted:So, how DO you pronounce all these? Specifically "Khan" and "quixote". Quixote: Key-hote-ay
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Sep 4, 2014 21:20
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Redeye Flight posted:So, how DO you pronounce all these? Specifically "Khan" and "quixote". Quixote is key-hote-ay like Peanut President says, but the word quixotic entered the English language from people who didn't know how to pronounce Quixote, so they figured the x was a cks sort of sound like in the word tax. As such, the adjective quixotic is properly pronounced as quick-sotic, despite the name Don Quixote being pronounced key-hote-ay. It's a weird little thing, but if someone is saying it as key-hote-ic then they probably have never used the word aloud before and only seen it in print. Of course if enough people start saying key-hote-ic then that'd be correct too, but right now there's a strange disconnect between the adjective quixotic which is based on Quixote but pronounced totally differently.
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Sep 4, 2014 21:38
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fermun posted:It's a weird little thing, but if someone is saying it as key-hote-ic then they probably have never used the word aloud before and only seen it in print. I also pronounced 'plague' as 'plagoo' when I was much younger, to the eternal amusement of my dad. 
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Sep 4, 2014 21:54
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In portuguese you pronounce Quixote more or less like the french, and "Mexico" as "Meshico", any connection there with older spanish?
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Sep 4, 2014 22:00
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I know Meshico is the original Nahuatl pronunciation.
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Sep 4, 2014 22:01
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There are a fair few languages (I know Lithuanian is like this off hand) which require that nouns have certain endings, so you pretty much have to modify your name slightly in order for it to make sense. There was an issue a few years ago when Lithuania banned the use of Polish letters on Lithuanian passports which annoyed the Polish minority since they pretty much had to change their name in order to get formal ID. When I was there for my random month basic language course, we ended up Lithuanianising our names and I ended up with "Kalumas", which probably is still a bit of a silly name anyway. Its one of the things that make other languages interesting, and that's something that I only learned last year...
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Sep 4, 2014 22:14
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Kegluneq posted:Welp, that's me then! Maybe you were just born to be a Starcraft commentator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpuv7VPb2rA
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Sep 4, 2014 22:24
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Falukorv posted:In portuguese you pronounce Quixote more or less like the french, and "Mexico" as "Meshico", any connection there with older spanish? Old Spanish and (old) Galician-Portuguese both shared the same crowded set of seven sibilant consonants, which they wrote the same way: /ts/, written with c (before e or i) or ç /dz/, written with z /s/, written with ss (between vowels) or s /z/, written with s (between vowels) /ʃ/ (the English "sh" sound), written with x /ʒ/ (the sound in English "vision"), written with g (before e or i) or j /tʃ/ (the English "ch" sound), written with ch Sound changes in the two languages over the subsequent centuries have reduced the number of these sounds, but in different ways. Spanish merged all of the voiced sounds with their unvoiced equivalents (i.e. /dz/ > /ts/, /z/ > /s/, /ʒ/ > /ʃ/), and then moved the resulting sounds around a bit: former /ʃ/ is obviously today pronounced /x/ (a "kh"-like sound) or /h/, and former /ts/ is now /θ/ (a "th"-like sound, and the source of the "Castilian lisp") or merged with /s/ (as in most Latin American dialects). Portuguese kept the voiced and unvoiced sounds distinct, but in most dialects former /ts/ has merged into /s/, former /dz/ has merged into /z/, and former /tʃ/ has weakened to /ʃ/. At the end of syllables, the whole system seems to have collapsed into just one sound, realized in different ways depending on the surrounding phonetic environment. One final quirk is that Portuguese continues to spell its sibilants more or less according to the medieval rules, while Spanish got rid of ç, ss and most instances of x in spelling reforms in the 1700s and 1800s.
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Sep 4, 2014 23:36
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IceAgeComing posted:There are a fair few languages (I know Lithuanian is like this off hand) which require that nouns have certain endings, so you pretty much have to modify your name slightly in order for it to make sense. There was an issue a few years ago when Lithuania banned the use of Polish letters on Lithuanian passports which annoyed the Polish minority since they pretty much had to change their name in order to get formal ID. When I was there for my random month basic language course, we ended up Lithuanianising our names and I ended up with "Kalumas", which probably is still a bit of a silly name anyway. Its one of the things that make other languages interesting, and that's something that I only learned last year... What's the story behind this? Are Poland and Lithuania enemies? Wouldn't they be friends, what with the Catholicism, historical ties and hatred of the Russians between them?
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Sep 4, 2014 23:50
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I don't exactly know 100%: they weren't the best of friends in the inter-war years after the Polish invaded Vilnius (which is the traditional Lithuanian capital, albeit at the time majority Polish) but its not like they are threatening to declare war on each other or are having any loud arguments. I can't remember exactly what happened 100% since it came up in a class I did last semester , but i think that the Lithuanian supreme court ruled that names on passports had to be Lithuanianised, which caused political tensions since its not something that particularly pleased the Polish minority. Its not like its a big political issue like minority rights still kinda are in the other Baltic states and the Polish community is generally rather integrated, but you do naturally get conflicts which upset the group in question and cause the Polish government to say something. e: The Baltic States are all very big on defending their own languages, especially since Latvia and Estonia came close to being 50% Russian speakers before the collapse of the USSR. Makes sense, since every other state in Europe has done the same in their time
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Sep 5, 2014 00:08
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Sep 5, 2014 02:32
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I don't think the author of that image quite knows what the word annexed means.
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Sep 5, 2014 03:23
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Stalin sure loved Ukraine!
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Sep 5, 2014 05:53
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Separatist maps of  
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Sep 5, 2014 05:55
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Lord Hydronium posted:Separatist maps of
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Sep 5, 2014 06:06
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Lord Hydronium posted:Separatist maps of It's really weird when you realize you can recognize the words Ukrania and Novorossiya without actually "knowing" Cyrillic.
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Sep 5, 2014 07:46
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Someone please make a map of "Territories annexed to Russia by Mongolia", thanks in advance.
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Sep 5, 2014 11:11
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Someone who first translated Cyrillic to Latin letters thought the Russian h sound was really rough, and so decided to make a special diphthong of kh- to describe it. But actually it's just a slightly strong h sound, which is expressed in Cyrillic with the character X. This also goes for other languages that use Cyrillic alphabets, such as Mongolia. Thus the k in khan ('Хан' in Mongolian) and in many Russian names should not be pronounced. It's a stupid diphthong and it should be abolished. Funny story, Texas is spelled almost identically in Cyrillic (Техас), but pronounced with an h sound instead of an x, and phonetically so. twoday fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 11:24
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Albino Squirrel posted:"Hobo Russia"
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Sep 5, 2014 11:37
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kalstrams posted:I applaud to you. You would. Who ruled the region around Kiev before 1654? The Golden Horde still? Poland-Lithuania? I'm fuzzy with my Eastern European timeline.
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Sep 5, 2014 12:51
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Torrannor posted:You would. I would indeed, you don't notice such things when you know a language that uses Cyrillic. Edit: http://www.timemaps.com/history/europe-1648ad for your question. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 13:03
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Torrannor posted:You would. The Golden Horde was long gone in the 16th century. The PLC held it and had done since the mid 1300s (though obviously not in the form of Poland-Lithuania). But but you see, Kievan Rus', etc. etc., kill all Ruthenians.
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Sep 5, 2014 13:07
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I am gonna put this here then: ... not that I can actually say what this 1681 map is saying since my Latin is at guessing level. (Original from http://vkraina.com/en/maps#1681, which has much higher resolution and a bunch of other maps which may or may not be politically loaded or biases)
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Sep 5, 2014 13:29
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BBJoey posted:But but you see, Kievan Rus', etc. etc., kill all Ruthenians. Could you expand on this a little bit? I'm curious because I'm from Serbia and we have the second largest population of Rusyns in the world but I don't know that much about their history.
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Sep 5, 2014 13:52
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incrediblyshrinkingisrael.png
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Sep 6, 2014 03:58
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SaltyJesus posted:Could you expand on this a little bit? I'm curious because I'm from Serbia and we have the second largest population of Rusyns in the world but I don't know that much about their history. Kiev used to be THE center of Russian civilization, before the Golden Horde rolled in, murdered everyone, and burned it to a cinder. It eventually came back to Russian control, but never again regained its preeminence. So Russians could semi-reasonably argue that Kiev and the environs has been a Russian place longer than it has any other ethnicity.
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Sep 6, 2014 13:36
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TheBalor posted:Kiev used to be THE center of Russian civilization, before the Golden Horde rolled in, murdered everyone, and burned it to a cinder. It eventually came back to Russian control, but never again regained its preeminence. So Russians could semi-reasonably argue that Kiev and the environs has been a Russian place longer than it has any other ethnicity. Semi-reasonable is stretching it, as is calling it a center of "Russian civilization". It was the center of East Slavic civilization, before the split of East Slavs into multiple cultures.
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Sep 6, 2014 13:50
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OddObserver posted:Semi-reasonable is stretching it, as is calling it a center of "Russian civilization". It was the center of East Slavic civilization, before Fair enough. Point is, it ties into the whole viewpoint of Russians as the leaders of all slavs, which tickles the nationalist bone.
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Sep 6, 2014 14:30
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TheBalor posted:Fair enough. Point is, it ties into the whole viewpoint of Russians as the leaders of all slavs, which tickles the nationalist bone. Yeah, they would certainly believe that.
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Sep 6, 2014 14:36
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Them duke boys are at it again!  or am I missing something about the confederate flag there
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Sep 6, 2014 15:16
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blugu64 posted:Them duke boys are at it again!
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