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Lukashenko opens his mouth and talks about what he thinks happened at the talks in Minsk. http://rt.com/news/185776-lukashenko-on-ukraine-crisis/#.VAxt1atj_tw.twitter Five members of NATO will send weapons and advisors to Ukraine. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-crisis-renewed-fighting-threatens-fragile-ceasefire-1.2758330 One civilian dead in new shelling. http://www.accessnorthga.com/detail.php?n=279250
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Sep 7, 2014 18:47
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As long as Ukraine is willing to fight, we should support them with money and weapons.
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Sep 7, 2014 18:54
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Five members of NATO will send weapons and advisors to Ukraine. "This news is incorrect. Italy, along with other EU and NATO countries, is preparing a package of non-lethal military aid such as bullet-proof vests and helmets for Ukraine"
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Sep 7, 2014 18:58
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Five members of NATO will send weapons and advisors to Ukraine. Is this the first case of NATO sending armaments directly to Ukraine? I'm still a little surprised it's taken this long, but the West can definitely afford to fund Ukraine's half of the war if it comes to it. The fact that they're getting weapons now that they're losing rather than when they were winning reminds me of a more general foreign policy observation that it seems like these days nobody actually wants the people they're supporting to win, they just want to keep them from losing. Both Russia and the US are funding factions across North Africa, the Middle East and now Eastern Europe and yet those factions never seem to get enough to completely win - as though the Great Powers are afraid of an uncertain outcome and prefer to keep things in limbo. Edit: Disappointed if they're not sending real weapons. It's not like Russia's restraining themselves with what they're sending, what is the point of it?
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Sep 7, 2014 18:59
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Dolash posted:Is this the first case of NATO sending armaments directly to Ukraine? It probably isn't happening, it's just Poroshenko's aide on Facebook. http://www.newsweek.com/four-nato-allies-deny-ukraine-statement-providing-arms-268860 quote:A senior U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, denied that the United States had made such a pledge. The official told Reuters, "No U.S. offer of lethal assistance has been made to Ukraine."
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Sep 7, 2014 19:02
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Is it the normal not happening or the Russian 'not happening'. Seriously, just send weapons and other aid and tell the world that you aren't doing it and tha the Ukrainian government probably found them in some attic.
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Sep 7, 2014 19:03
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The EU's response to this has been the most disappointing thing in the world to me, after Russia's.
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Sep 7, 2014 19:09
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Russia is certainly not gonna believe that it's not weapons in those planes, perhaps even more so if they deny it so much.
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Sep 7, 2014 19:11
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The problem is the only people who buy the rebels found those MBT's in an attic are the Russian people themselves. So the west really can't pull the same thing and not get called out on it domestically. Either way, I don't really see the US sending arms. I think the US is a bit shy about arming nations. We always end up fighting them in the end, and the electorate is getting tired of it. Maybe after the elections things will change.
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Sep 7, 2014 19:13
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Five members of NATO will send weapons and advisors to Ukraine. All of them but France and the US are denying it, though. I'm not generally a fan of France, but I have to say, over the past decade I've started to appreciate them as one of the few European countries with balls. e: seriously, just send weapons already.
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Sep 7, 2014 19:20
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There's political risks. Weapons could end up in Azov battalion's or even separatist hands. Russian GRU would also love getting some samples of the latest western miltech like 5th generation ATGMs on their hands, to reverse engineer them and improve their counter-measures.
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Sep 7, 2014 19:24
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And I'm not sure The Ukraine is suffering from a short supply of man portable launchers. There's really not much good lethal armaments we could give them that would help. They're not short on guns and mortars. We can't give them vehicles, even if we wanted to. Giving them body armor and other supplies is probably the best option at the moment. Body armor will help them in infantry on infantry engagements at least, and isn't going to require much training to go with it. It's not a big deal if it falls in rebel hands, either. Unless they find a way to shell a village with trauma plates.
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Sep 7, 2014 19:31
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Phlegmish posted:All of them but France and the US are denying it, though. The French are supplying the Russian military may as well supply Ukraine.
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Sep 7, 2014 19:31
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Wonder what kind of advisers are going to be sent? Seems like the perfect role for US Army SF, one of their primary missions is Foreign Internal Defense.
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Sep 7, 2014 19:35
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The immediate concern is safeguarding what's left of Ukrainian sovereignty and thwarting Russia's plans to cut off Ukraine from the Black Sea, and I don't think anyone but the political fringe would call Western governments out on this decision. Speaking for myself as someone who lives in a NATO country, I'm very much in favor of supporting Ukraine in a material sense. The weapons ending up in separatist hands is a legitimate concern, so it would probably be wise to provide appropriate training to Ukrainian troops before immediately sending arms shipments to the front lines. Killer-of-Lawyers posted:And I'm not sure The Ukraine is suffering from a short supply of man portable launchers. There's really not much good lethal armaments we could give them that would help. They're not short on guns and mortars. We can't give them vehicles, even if we wanted to. Giving them body armor and other supplies is probably the best option at the moment. Body armor will help them in infantry on infantry engagements at least, and isn't going to require much training to go with it. It's not a big deal if it falls in rebel hands, either. Unless they find a way to shell a village with trauma plates. I'm constantly reading reports that their artillery is being outclassed by the Russians', so anything in that department would probably be a good idea. Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Sep 7, 2014 |
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Sep 7, 2014 19:36
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:Also this: Wikipedia posted:The Russian military has used DU ammunition in tank main gun ammunition since the late 1970s, mostly for the 115 mm guns in the T-62 tank and the 125 mm guns in the T-64, T-72, T-80, and T-90 tanks. Just a reminder that both sides in Donbass are fielding these tanks. Of course, good luck Googling for any information on the use of DU in the current conflict. You get some pretty hilarious  poo poo, but not much content.Still, I wonder if boxes full of N95 masks would be useful humanitarian aid at this stage.
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Sep 7, 2014 19:48
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Giving Ukraine a load of AT stuff would probably be useful, given how the militants seem to love their mechanised assaults.
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Sep 7, 2014 19:50
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It's interesting they're denying it. The preliminary report on Flight MH17 will be released on Tuesday. That doesn't mean some are already speculating on the contents of that report. quote:http://online.wsj.com/articles/malaysia-says-intelligence-reports-on-flight-17-crash-pretty-conclusive-1409983490?mod=trending_now_2
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Sep 7, 2014 19:58
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Phlegmish posted:I'm constantly reading reports that their artillery is being outclassed by the Russians', so anything in that department would probably be a good idea. Yeah, that seems to be the case, but what would we give them? I'm not sure we want to see more MLRS fire in the region. Howitzers and towed artillery is slow, and given that they use Russian style equipment I can't even be sure they have the right tow hitches for that sort of stuff. We can't just give them SPG's or vehicles, or anything else. Even if the will was there to give them something the time needed to train them would be prohibitive, and training isn't going to stop the rebels from capturing the pieces. If we were willing to go to such lengths then it'd be easier to just send forces of our own, which will never happen. So I don't think we'll ever see NATO giving them any lethal arms, or if we do it will be AK's and RPG's like the US gave to the Kurds in Iraq recently.
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Sep 7, 2014 20:08
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:It's interesting they're denying it. So mightypeon and co will just ignore the findings as western lies and keep blaming Ukraine?
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Sep 7, 2014 20:10
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Yeah, that seems to be the case, but what would we give them? I'm not sure we want to see more MLRS fire in the region. Howitzers and towed artillery is slow, and given that they use Russian style equipment I can't even be sure they have the right tow hitches for that sort of stuff. We can't just give them SPG's or vehicles, or anything else. Even if the will was there to give them something the time needed to train them would be prohibitive, and training isn't going to stop the rebels from capturing the pieces. I'm not a military buff, so I'll take your word for it. I just feel that we should be helping the Ukrainians the same way Russia has been helping out the 'separatists', and I don't see why it wouldn't be feasible both in a logistical and a political sense. Even though the success of the current separatist push is mostly due to the presence of regular Russian units, it can't be denied that Russian aid played an important role in boosting rebel military power even before that.
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Sep 7, 2014 20:25
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Scapegoat posted:So mightypeon and co will just ignore the findings as western lies and keep blaming Ukraine? If you don't have anything better to say than "WELL I AM SURE THAT MIGHTYPEON WILL LIE ABOUT THIS NEW THING" then you should not post at all. At least the trolls occasionally say something funny and it's fun to marvel when people work themselves up into a frenzy like Lucy, but these one liner cheerleading posts add absolutely nothing.
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Sep 7, 2014 20:25
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Maarek posted:If you don't have anything better to say than "WELL I AM SURE THAT MIGHTYPEON WILL LIE ABOUT THIS NEW THING" then you should not post at all. At least the trolls occasionally say something funny and it's fun to marvel when people work themselves up into a frenzy like Lucy, but these one liner cheerleading posts add absolutely nothing. Stop pretending Ukraine and Russia aren't at war and there isn't a side to support, because at this point you sound like the people defending Assad.
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Sep 7, 2014 20:33
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Scapegoat posted:So mightypeon and co will just ignore the findings as western lies and keep blaming Ukraine? From what I've read on forums, the airliner was shot down by Blackwater mercenaries paid by Washington to make Russia look bad.
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Sep 7, 2014 20:33
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Scapegoat posted:So mightypeon and co will just ignore the findings as western lies and keep blaming Ukraine? How do you get that? The article hints that people who got a first chance to read the report are satisfied with the findings, and hints that what people concluded back in July, that the plane was hit by a surface to air missile in rebel held territory, is what will be revealed on Tuesday.
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Sep 7, 2014 20:39
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Nonsense posted:Stop pretending Ukraine and Russia aren't at war and there isn't a side to support, because at this point you sound like the people defending Assad. Well, some of the posts here really have been hyperbolic. There are enough rational reasons to support Ukraine without dropping one-liners about how Putin will destroy the world if we don't stop him. We have to ask ourselves if we want to be the Western equivalent of Russian propaganda talking about the homonazi junta.
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Sep 7, 2014 20:42
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If the west wanted to be sneaky about it they'd just supply Ukraine with old cold war surplus stuff from Poland/Rumania/Hungary etc, or like the Croat stuff that ended up in Syria. Ukraine doesn't need the latest TOW missiles, they need munitions in general and preferably easy to handle stuff that don't require months of training to learn (like most western stuff they aren't familiar with). Modern fighting goes through a shitload of ammo and equipment really quickly. Nighvision gear would probably be welcome though, the Russians probably have a large advantage there right now. All those modern tanks and IFVs come loaded with it. e: Oh right, Ukraine can't use GLONASS and probably don't have access to GPS for their artillery either do they? Spetsnatz forces with good night-vision gear can probably do a lot of damage with the help of Russian artillery and GLONASS during the night (like... these past nights). Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Sep 7, 2014 |
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Sep 7, 2014 20:46
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Encrypted radio equipment would also likely help a lot.
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Sep 7, 2014 21:06
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Nonsense posted:Stop pretending Ukraine and Russia aren't at war and there isn't a side to support, because at this point you sound like the people defending Assad. The problem isn't that you support Ukraine, it's that you support pointless white noise posting. The fact that you equate being against that with defending Assad goes a long way to explain why two thirds of the posts in this threads are absolutely useless. Phlegmish posted:Well, some of the posts here really have been hyperbolic. There are enough rational reasons to support Ukraine without dropping one-liners about how Putin will destroy the world if we don't stop him. We have to ask ourselves if we want to be the Western equivalent of Russian propaganda talking about the homonazi junta. Don't forget accusing people of being paid by the KGB to post.
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Sep 7, 2014 21:35
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Yeah, that seems to be the case, but what would we give them? I'm not sure we want to see more MLRS fire in the region. Howitzers and towed artillery is slow, and given that they use Russian style equipment I can't even be sure they have the right tow hitches for that sort of stuff. We can't just give them SPG's or vehicles, or anything else. Even if the will was there to give them something the time needed to train them would be prohibitive, and training isn't going to stop the rebels from capturing the pieces. Can't we just give them money and let them buy the stuff from someone?
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Sep 7, 2014 22:22
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I think that the problem may be that what they need most is manpower and training. We can't/won't give them the former and the latter takes time they don't have.
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Sep 7, 2014 22:24
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DarkCrawler posted:Can't we just give them money and let them buy the stuff from someone? The best thing to do if we give them money is to straight up give money to run the government. Not a loan either.
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Sep 7, 2014 22:26
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There's no way the West couldn't arm Ukraine if they wanted to, by hook or by crook. As for diplomatic/political blowback, Ukraine doesn't strike me the same way as Al-Qaeda and being afraid to arm an allied nation-state because it could end the same way as arming a religious-extremist group doesn't follow. As for lying about it, it wouldn't be necessary since sending equipment to Ukraine is demonstrably no worse than what Russia's doing and nobody cares what Russia says any more (especially if they try to claim hypocrisy). Even if they did decide to play the denial game, I can only assume it'd be for smug points - I think the American public might actually like Obama waggling his eyebrows and remarking "I have no idea where the Ukrainian government is getting all their new tanks and artillery from, they must've looted them from the separatists". The big lesson from this crisis is "calling people out" and having evidence of the truth and what have you is pretty much irrelevant if they can just ignore you and keep going anyway. That might as well cut both ways.
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Sep 7, 2014 22:26
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Maarek posted:I think that the problem may be that what they need most is manpower and training. We can't/won't give them the former and the latter takes time they don't have. Would shady "military advisers" in unmarked clothes and high level communications equipment help co-ordinate efforts? Neither would be too overt.
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Sep 7, 2014 22:29
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Dolash posted:There's no way the West couldn't arm Ukraine if they wanted to, by hook or by crook. As for diplomatic/political blowback, Ukraine doesn't strike me the same way as Al-Qaeda and being afraid to arm an allied nation-state because it could end the same way as arming a religious-extremist group doesn't follow. Allied nation-state?
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Sep 7, 2014 22:30
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Dolash posted:There's no way the West couldn't arm Ukraine if they wanted to, by hook or by crook. As for diplomatic/political blowback, Ukraine doesn't strike me the same way as Al-Qaeda and being afraid to arm an allied nation-state because it could end the same way as arming a religious-extremist group doesn't follow. Obama can't play that game because the US still cares about its credibility. If Russia were to parade on TV proof of US involvement, then it would be a blow to the US. Putin on the other hand clearly doesn't give a gently caress either way, so he can issue these ridiculous denials.
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Sep 7, 2014 22:35
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Does a discussion of various governments secretly arming the Ukrainian government to fight a proxy war against Russia not count as Clancychat? Generally, I think it's a valuable service to let anyone new to the thread know the names of the Russia apologists who tend to periodically reappear here. If everyone ignores them, new readers will make the mistake of thinking they have legitimate arguments or opinions.
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Sep 7, 2014 22:46
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Vladimir Putin posted:Obama can't play that game because the US still cares about its credibility. If Russia were to parade on TV proof of US involvement, then it would be a blow to the US. Putin on the other hand clearly doesn't give a gently caress either way, so he can issue these ridiculous denials. Solution: host training in a NATO-aligned nation that borders Ukraine. Or, what Putin did. Let those individuals strike from eastern Poland or northern Romania against Russian targets, and use NATO assets against any counter-strike Or, the bush wars model that the Soviets played against SA-aligned nations. E: Discendo Vox posted:Does a discussion of various governments secretly arming the Ukrainian government to fight a proxy war against Russia not count as Clancychat? Making lists of known Russian apologists and publicizing their names....hmmm....sounds like a very Germanic or McCarthian thing to do.
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Sep 7, 2014 22:46
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Discendo Vox posted:Does a discussion of various governments secretly arming the Ukrainian government to fight a proxy war against Russia not count as Clancychat? It's not clancychat because it's actually happening. As such, it would count as current event discussion.
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Sep 7, 2014 22:56
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My Imaginary GF posted:Making lists of known Russian apologists and publicizing their names....hmmm....sounds like a very Germanic or McCarthian thing to do. 
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