|
Haha, that business card is from 2004/2005. My girlfriend found it when we were reorganizing/tossing a ton of stuff in my apartment. (Edit: I thought it was funny to claim that I accept bribes because at the time literally nobody had heard of us and the idea of anyone offering us a bribe was utterly absurd. A decade later I have still never been offered a bribe.)
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 00:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 21:04 |
|
|
Chris Remo posted:(Edit: I thought it was funny to claim that I accept bribes because at the time literally nobody had heard of us and the idea of anyone offering us a bribe was utterly absurd. A decade later I have still never been offered a bribe.) That's exactly what someone who has taken a bribe would say. Fraud Remo rumbled.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 00:30
|
|
|
Chris Remo posted:Haha, that business card is from 2004/2005. My girlfriend found it when we were reorganizing/tossing a ton of stuff in my apartment. Hey, I'll send you  if you talk about video games on your next podcast.You can't prove you didn't take my bribe, therefore it happened. #Gamergate
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 01:35
|
|
|
Thanks to WOFF and Idle Thumbs for making my 20 hours in the car over the past 48 hours liveable.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 03:05
|
|
|
I'm still catching up from the thread and only just listened to the Idle Thumbs episode where the guys did a great job talking about the whole Zoey Quinn thing so this is from a while back: What I would like is a link to that video they were talking about with the guy's manifesto with footage of Bane spliced through. It sounds loving hilarious and now I have to see it. Anyone have a link?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 08:36
|
|
|
Chris Remo posted:Haha, that business card is from 2004/2005. My girlfriend found it when we were reorganizing/tossing a ton of stuff in my apartment. Then what do you call Kickstarter eh smart guy? 
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 08:39
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:Then what do you call Kickstarter eh smart guy? Extortion 
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 14:00
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:Then what do you call Kickstarter eh smart guy? Great now I'm obsessed about the concept of treating the purchase of all goods and services as a bribe. "No, I won't pay you 8.50 to clean these shirts but I'll tell you what. I slip you 8 dollars and 50 cents, you clean these shirts and we forget this ever happened." Or "How did you manage to even get this meal in here? You know what I don't want to know. Here's your 40 bucks and here's your finders fee, say 20 percent? Remember, we're in this together now so if I go down you go down."
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 15:10
|
|
|
All capitalism is bribery. Money must be free, open source, and anonymous. Dogecoin is the only answer, if you care about objective game reviews. Clearly all these journalist with their salaries between 30k and 60k are living it high on the public teet.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 17:55
|
|
|
Don't forget those game reviews have to be completely about mechanics and performance and any other objectively measurable things and any criticism/discussion about narrative or design needs to be separated into an opinion article. Wouldn't want people to get the wrong impression and accidentally buy Gone Home or something.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 18:04
|
|
|
Sober posted:Don't forget those game reviews have to be completely about mechanics and performance and any other objectively measurable things and any criticism/discussion about narrative or design needs to be separated into an opinion article. Wouldn't want people to get the wrong impression and accidentally buy Gone Home or something. Wouldn't Gone Home score really high in those? very few bugs, stable framerate and the controls are standard first person?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 18:16
|
|
|
You guys have seen this totally objective site right: http://www.objectivegamereviews.com/gone-home-review/
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 18:21
|
|
|
Those are the only reviews I read. Well that and this one: 
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 18:39
|
|
|
  totally reasonable demands
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 18:48
|
|
|
Man, what if these people spent this much effort and energy bettering themselves or their local communities? Imagine that time focused towards a good cause instead of words written about electronic bleeps and bloops.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 18:54
|
|
|
Sober posted:
Everything before "F" sounds pretty reasonable to me for anything that calls itself journalism. Harder journalism has some real slippery problems with ads looking more like straight information: http://www.onthemedia.org/story/even-blurrier-lines/ Granted, this is entertainment we're talking about, not hard news.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 19:02
|
|
|
Leaving aside how silly that is (objective reviews!), wouldn't this not actually affect most the pieces of gaming press that they don't like and think are indicative of corrupting. Most of this stuff is with regards to fact based reporting. It has nothing to do with queer people liking Gone Home more than 4chan users, or opinion pieces written by women in gaming sites, or editorial content on a feminist youtube channel. Unless the issue is that people were somehow mistaking opinions for fact. I guess they're just angry they clicked on the Opinion Piece and not the Fact Based Reporting (Source: Press Kit). But, then they hate actual investigative journalists in games press, who are so extremely rare, you'd think they'd be championing the ones that exist. What does guaranteed and unmoderated comment fields even have to do with journalistic ethics or integrity?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 19:05
|
|
|
It's almost like this whole thing is baseless garbage or something
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 19:11
|
|
|
ONE YEAR LATER posted:Man, what if these people spent this much effort and energy bettering themselves or their local communities? Imagine that time focused towards a good cause instead of words written about electronic bleeps and bloops. You really don't even need to stretch them that far; imagine the potential good if they were this passionate about journalistic integrity as it pertains to their own cities and communities or to things like the civil unrest in Ferguson.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 19:17
|
|
|
Video games journalism: should be more rigorous than political reporting
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 19:28
|
|
|
political reporting: should probably be more rigorous
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 19:55
|
|
|
Sober posted:
Oh, Christ. Perhaps the better solution to this is to stop hailing to video game websites to justify the purchase of your favorite call of duty or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 20:04
|
|
|
Scorchy posted:You guys have seen this totally objective site right: http://www.objectivegamereviews.com/gone-home-review/ I'm guessing it lost the 1 point for lack of ghosts.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 20:18
|
|
|
What if I want to report some facts and also have opinions on them at the same time? Every line of that thing can bite my butthole.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 20:19
|
|
|
ONE YEAR LATER posted:Man, what if these people spent this much effort and energy bettering themselves or their local communities? Imagine that time focused towards a good cause instead of words written about electronic bleeps and bloops. I can't stop thinking about how these people would lose their goddamned minds if they took even a cursory glance at US political campaign finance.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 20:27
|
|
|
If you ever favourited a tweet from an indie developer you need to recuse yourself when writing a report about their release date.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 21:10
|
|
|
Sober posted:If you ever favourited a tweet from an indie developer you need to recuse yourself when writing a report about their release date. *pulls aside undies made in a third-world sweatshop and purchased at Wal-Mart to masturbate to naked photos of celebrities stolen from password-protected photo accounts* It's about accountability
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 21:24
|
|
|
ONE YEAR LATER posted:Man, what if these people spent this much effort and energy bettering themselves or their local communities? Imagine that time focused towards a good cause instead of words written about electronic bleeps and bloops. The issue is that they're nuts because they've ensconced themselves so deeply in an extremely limited view on life, the universe and everything, by virtue of spending the majority of their time in a single place where views are bound to be skewed in a single direction. If they listened to Rush Limbaugh every day they'd be the exact same thing exact they'd be MANLY MEN against the FemiNazis raising their taxes, rather than True Gamers protecting their hobby from Social Justice Warriors.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 00:07
|
|
|
I'm finding it very hard to understand their point of view. Like, how can you not see that representations of women in games is bad? How is that even up for debate? They latch on to the smallest of poo poo, as if somehow this proves them right. I've tried to understand. I've watched their youtube videos, but it's all tiny, petty things (press woman a once shared a house with gameswoman b. twitterwoman c said a swear on twitter). To them, they're huge bombshells that prove corruption in games press. I've asked them why they hate Anita Sarkeesian. They hate her because she's a liar. She's a liar because you lose points when you kill the strippers in hitman, which she didn't mention in her video. It's all a big pile of meaninglessness, and to them this amounts to something. I really want to understand where they're coming from, because a lot of them seem to really mean well, and it's not just crazy 4chan people who believe this. Real people who I know believe that it's just about corruption, and they don't really question why it's always directed at women.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 00:49
|
|
|
This is a opinion piece of Word Realms. Warning, the following may contain subjective opinions Disclosure - Zak read an email from me once on Video Games Hotdog. Also we have both been at DragonCon at the same time, though the author is unclear if he met Zak at the time. An investigation is ongoing. The author has financially supported Zak by buying this game. He would consider supporting him on patreon, but Zak has not created a video of him talking over a picture of a hotdog yet. The author will do his very best that this close personal relationship to interfere. Also it is rumored he played The Secret of Horse Island with Riff at one point but this is also under investigation. Word Realms is a good game. You'd probably enjoy it. Feel free to reply to this review in this thread, private message me, email me ulta@email.com, tweet at me @badcontrollerop, or call me on my personal cell 555-gently caress-off
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 01:00
|
|
|
Dr. Stab posted:I'm finding it very hard to understand their point of view. Like, how can you not see that representations of women in games is bad? How is that even up for debate? They latch on to the smallest of poo poo, as if somehow this proves them right. I've tried to understand. I've watched their youtube videos, but it's all tiny, petty things (press woman a once shared a house with gameswoman b. twitterwoman c said a swear on twitter). To them, they're huge bombshells that prove corruption in games press. I've asked them why they hate Anita Sarkeesian. They hate her because she's a liar. She's a liar because you lose points when you kill the strippers in hitman, which she didn't mention in her video. It's all a big pile of meaninglessness, and to them this amounts to something. I really want to understand where they're coming from, because a lot of them seem to really mean well, and it's not just crazy 4chan people who believe this. Real people who I know believe that it's just about corruption, and they don't really question why it's always directed at women. I'd like to imagine that only on the internet "Representation of non-white non-men could be analyzed, thought about, and handled better" is refuted with "Shut down all SJWs." Also that specific thing about points in Hitman is a whole potential avenue for actual gameplay analysis. So that game has actually put a point value price tag on a human life. That's kind of weird if you mull it over. What does that say about score-based evaluation for these stealth games? What message is that sending? Are there potentially other ways to implement those rules? But none of them will consider it because they have technically refuted Sarkeesian and technical correctness is the sweetest ambrosia to a nerd. I develop games. One of her videos she mentions how disappearing corpses makes killed women NPCs feel value-less and violable. My immediate emotional reaction was "What, no! Men corpses disappear too!" Then I thought two more seconds about it and disappearing corpses in general actually do have an emotional impact on the game. I never would have thought about it before because cleaning up for memory concerns was just part of my basic set of assumptions. This got long. I'm gettin mad bout video games. gently caress. mortisXL fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Sep 10, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 01:02
|
|
|
I was really down on her videos until someone pointed out that they're really 101 kind of stuff, in which put them in a new light for me. I still don't like them because she ignores context, her tone is very judgmental which can rub people the wrong way, comes off as very matter-of-fact and really loses me when saving princess peach is the equivalent of winning back a stolen possession then how all of it just reinforces the patriarchy or something like that. But I've grown to appreciate the underlying message of her videos. I've always felt that women in games need more characterization and need less to be figurative objects in the background or goals but I had a hard time seeing that's what she was pushing for behind all the feminist rhetoric. Sexism and poo poo like that aside, I can see why she rubs people the wrong way. When an outsider comes along, who you find out really isn't into games or particularly likes them, telling you they know best for something you've enjoyed nearly all your life you act suspicious towards their intentions and motives. Like with "gamergate" you have people like Adam Baldwin throwing their weight behind them. Do you think he really gives a poo poo about the industry? No, he's just doing it to recruit susceptible minds into his political group and adopt his views. I don't believe Anita is that like that at all since her underlying message is a positive one but you can at least understand where people are coming from. It doesn't excuse their harassment (but it's the internet, you will always get people slinging insults if you express yourself publicly) but that's where I think most of them come from.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 01:05
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:... really isn't into games or particularly likes them... I was under the impression that this was a misconception spawned from some oft-cited misquote.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 01:45
|
|
|
TooManyUzukis posted:I was under the impression that this was a misconception spawned from some oft-cited misquote. It may have been. I've move past the point of caring about that. I'm just saying that from a general point of view of her detractors. But I will say she did come out of nowhere with her videos, for better or for worse. Had people saw her name pop up more around the industry before hand would probably tempered people's reaction to everything. I wonder how the reaction would have been had one of the many women writers in the industry had started the Kickstarter and made those videos. Well, if Cara Ellison did I'm sure they would have been a lot more funnier and had lots of pictures of digital dicks in them, that's for sure. First time people heard about her is that she raised a lot of money to do a set of videos on video games on Kickstarter then she put out said videos. It didn't help things that a lot of her footage were taken from LP videos from around youtube without giving credit, which caused a lot of conspiracies of where the actual money went, ect. But that's just people picking at the little details and not the overall message (or even quality of the arguments).
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 01:53
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:I was really down on her videos until someone pointed out that they're really 101 kind of stuff, in which put them in a new light for me. I still don't like them because she ignores context, her tone is very judgmental which can rub people the wrong way, comes off as very matter-of-fact and really loses me when saving princess peach is the equivalent of winning back a stolen possession then how all of it just reinforces the patriarchy or something like that. But I've grown to appreciate the underlying message of her videos. I've always felt that women in games need more characterization and need less to be figurative objects in the background or goals but I had a hard time seeing that's what she was pushing for behind all the feminist rhetoric. I don't know that it's fair to describe them as 101-level stuff. I'd describe it more as the appropriate style for an argument that there is industry-level problem in games while targeting your argument for a general public audience. Anita could focus on a couple of games and talk about the sexism that runs throughout the games, but that doesn't prove a widespread problem in the industry, it would just go to show the depth of the problems in the specific games selected. The way to show that there's a problem in the industry is to show numerous examples from a wide range of games. When you structure a video like that, though, you have to be cautious of how much time you spend on each example, because part of making videos for a wide audience is that you can't produce 92 minute videos on Youtube and expect much in the way of viewership. You say she really loses you when she talks about Peach basically being a stolen possession to reclaim, so I have to ask, in what way do you think that Princess Peach (in at least the early Mario games) is significantly more than a trophy to be won? What about Peach's portrayal in SMB1 or 3 or World transcends being just an object to be reclaimed? What would be meaningfully different about those games if Mario was going after Bowser to reclaim his favorite toy, or his World's #1 Plumber trophy, or any other inanimate object? This is not meant as an attack, I'd just like to know what you think about that. To me it seems very obviously true, so I'd like to see the perspective of someone who disagrees.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 01:57
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:But I will say she did come out of nowhere with her videos, for better or for worse. Had people saw her name pop up more around the industry before hand would probably tempered people's reaction to everything. Sarkeesian had been doing "Tropes vs. Women" videos about other mediums for a good while before she launched the Kickstarter to do a series focusing on games. Maybe most gamer nerds hadn't heard of her before, but it's not like she simply materialized out of the ether one day. Regardless, "people would have reacted to her better if she was part of the industry beforehand" doesn't make her detractors seem any more reasonable even if it's true (and for my money it probably isn't). You don't need to be part of the industry to criticize games, and you don't need to be involved in "gamer culture" or whatever either. Games are a mass medium, and though they have their own narrative language (in the same way films or television programs do), the stories they depict and representations they offer can and should be analyzed the same way any other medium would.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 02:26
|
|
|
 Figure 1: A woman who isn't into games and doesn't particularly like them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 02:34
|
|
|
Clearly those are the games she has taken away from us haven't you been paying attention?
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 02:34
|
|
|
I personally think she does great work. The accusations of ignoring context/cherry picking miss the point that the context is sort of the point. I've looked around for a sound, calm refutation of her stuff and I haven't found one. It's generally people saying that "Pfft! The villain who slits the prostitutes throat is a bad guy! You're supposed to kill him!" while ignoring that so many games contain brothels, feature prostitutes having their throats slit and that the women being killed are lazy shorthand for grimdark. In fact, if anyone has a source of a calm, collected refutation, I'd love to see it. I'm not looking to be convinced but I haven't seen anything other than nonsense mouth fuming from trashdudes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 02:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 21:04 |
|
|
thefncrow posted:I don't know that it's fair to describe them as 101-level stuff. I'd describe it more as the appropriate style for an argument that there is industry-level problem in games while targeting your argument for a general public audience. Anita could focus on a couple of games and talk about the sexism that runs throughout the games, but that doesn't prove a widespread problem in the industry, it would just go to show the depth of the problems in the specific games selected. The way to show that there's a problem in the industry is to show numerous examples from a wide range of games. When you structure a video like that, though, you have to be cautious of how much time you spend on each example, because part of making videos for a wide audience is that you can't produce 92 minute videos on Youtube and expect much in the way of viewership. It's a really reductive way of looking at it. At the end of the day, yes, Peach is just a goal. Mario is just an puppet the player controls. Bowser is just a foil. What she is saying isn't wrong, I'm not disputing that but it takes a real detachment from a game to actually view it like that. 99% of people who played (either today or when it came out as kids) Super Mario Brothers saw Peach as a character who needed to be saved from the villainous Bowser and by the heroic Mario whom you controlled. They saw characters and connected with them. They didn't see objects. If they saw the game the way she does it wouldn't be so beloved by nearly the entire industry. She's not putting herself in the shoes of the gamers who played these games, she's taking an outsider's stance, which can be a good thing from time to time but she's also injecting politics into something that never had any politics to begin with. If you saw a kid playing with little those green army men figures that seem to get lost everywhere or, better yet, GI JOE figurines what do you see? To the kid playing it he sees Duke and the JOES foiling evil Cobra and his evil plans. To you, probably the same thing or just a kid playing with his toys and enjoying himself. To someone politically minded they see filth turning children into warmongers. It's just a kid escaping into a fantasy world where he's with Duke laying the smackdown on Cobra. Kids are smarter than most people give them credit for when it comes to this stuff, at least I think so. In the case of Super Mario Brothers, I think she moved a little too far into preachy territory and started talking down to her audience. It's easy to look at Mario games and see "well goodness, Peach got kidnapped again!" because you were alive when that game first came out. But since video games are for everyone, someone who wasn't around for the first game, that upteenth time Mario is saving Peach is their first Super Mario Brothers game. It's not problematic that a story about a knight saving a princess from a dragon exists, it's a pretty standard formula for a hero's tale. You can put anything in those roles. The knight is heroic, the princess needs help and the dragon is villainous. We may get tired of saving princesses with generic white dude knights and wish there was something more but that's just a symptom of the formula being used over and over again and the roles being filled by the same kind of character rather than the tale itself (and I agree with her that the tale is overdone and the roles need changing up). Wow, that's a ton o' words. There's a lot of nasty-rear end writing in the industry when it comes to treatment of women in games. She brings up those other tropes and I do agree with a lot of them but sometimes context really helps. Where she may see the "euthanasia of a woman" a gamer may see a heroic sacrifice because they know the context of that action in the story. You could make a point for why a story was written that way but then you enter an extremely slippery slope of limiting plot points in story and they all end up as these safe, forgettable stories that doesn't do any one thing a particular way. Opposing Farce posted:Sarkeesian had been doing "Tropes vs. Women" videos about other mediums for a good while before she launched the Kickstarter to do a series focusing on games. Maybe most gamer nerds hadn't heard of her before, but it's not like she simply materialized out of the ether one day. Regardless, "people would have reacted to her better if she was part of the industry beforehand" doesn't make her detractors seem any more reasonable even if it's true (and for my money it probably isn't). You don't need to be part of the industry to criticize games, and you don't need to be involved in "gamer culture" or whatever either. Games are a mass medium, and though they have their own narrative language (in the same way films or television programs do), the stories they depict and representations they offer can and should be analyzed the same way any other medium would. I agree, but it would have helped with her "outsider" image that people complain about. If that wasn't there they'd have one less bit of "ammunition" so to speak and would instead focus on the content of her videos and not her herself. pseudorandom name posted:
Not to take the side of those kind of people but it's a promo shot. Do you also think "Man, that politician is a man of the blue-collar everyday man!" when see a picture of the politician shaking hands of construction workers at a construction site? Jimbot fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Sep 10, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 02:45
|
|