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TapTheForwardAssist posted:Stoney End "Brittany" model 22str lap-harp with full levers and case. Bidding for $299 on eBay from a pawnshop. Retails for $825 plain, but full levers and bag bring is up to $1299 retail. Too good to be true, reasonable used price, or possible lucky deal for someone looking to start harp? I sure don't need it, but it jumped out at me while mucking around eBay. Killing time waiting for a friend to come by to borrow a concertina while I'm overseas. Full levers for $300 is insanely good. Levers -- as you may have noticed -- are expensive. (Whoops, looks like I got there too late; hope the bidder was you.) Stoney End is a respectable brand. The stand with two leg heights is a really good thing to have for a lap harp.
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Aug 25, 2014 22:48
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My Roosebeck/Taylor/Mideast lute arrived today: Impressions: - Overall this is a nice instrument. Quality wood, reasonably well put together, beautiful to look at. Frets don't seem to have quite the right spacing, but they are moveable. - The included strings are so atrocious that it's hard to say much about the sound; my Pyramid replacement strings haven't arrived yet. - The sound, from what I can tell with these awful strings, is indeed lute-like - clear, not too loud, sweet but a little metallic. - Finish flaws abound - little scratches, dabs of glue, etc. I don't really care about this but I can see that it would drive some people crazy. - The tuning pegs do not seem to be as bad as reported by some. They turn very smoothly now and seem to hold reasonably. I am concerned that some might slip, but I'm also overwhelmed by the fact that there are fifteen of them, so it's like keeping track of three guitars at once. - Action is perfect - quite low and easy, but no buzz on any fret that I have played so far. More later as I get a chance to replace the strings and frets and play it.
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Aug 27, 2014 15:36
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Gilgameshback posted:My Roosebeck/Taylor/Mideast lute arrived today: If it has decent action and usable pegs, plus you got a fitted hard-case for it, it sounds like you found quite a deal. If you can manage to use the current frets without their sliding around too much that might save some hassle, but you may ultimately wind up having to replace them with either proper fret-gut, or a quality synthetic substitute. Adjusting lute frets for proper intonation is apparently a bit involved, so worth reading up on. Really glad to see that you set a musical goal and it's already working out! Going to upload some YouTube clips once you get it up and running? I don't know what your repertoire on classical guitar is, but there's a real lack of edgy stuff being covered on lute. If you can whip up something avant-gardey, that'd be a cool contribution to YouTube depiction of the lute. As a parallel, there's mostly just one British dude doing really modern stuff on concertina (and Jeffries Duet no less!), and I ended up buying his album. He does things a bit reverse of the way I would do them on his album, in that he uses digital effects to mess with the concertina sound. If I ever get off my rear end and do some proper concertina stuff, I really want to do clean acoustic concertina but over a backdrop of electronic drone and beats. In any case, here's Stu covering the seminal electronic drone band Earth, really awesome clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcn2iQyEAZc If you can do anything vaguely like that with lute (though clearly lute is less drony and more intricate), it'd be amazing. Hey Arsenic Lupin, can I nudge you back towards working up a megapost on Paraguayan harp for the thread? I'm really fascinated by the design, and those later "butterfly harps" and the like that incorporate that in. In general, Caswell Harps has some really innovative designs; do they have a decent rep for actually pulling off the weird stuff? 
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Aug 27, 2014 18:03
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You bet. I've actually been thinking about it (mostly feeling guilty) for months. Will do. edit: The main thing I knew going in was that Caswell Harps had had a terrible, terrible reputation for delivery: months going by without any sort of communication. I checked the https://www.harpcolumn.com threads and found out that Chris Caswell had died in January 2013 of liver cancer. Arsenic Lupin fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Aug 27, 2014 |
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Aug 27, 2014 18:17
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Since music entered my life I have been a lot less stressed. An instrument in every room mixes rather well with stress all over the place. Even my wife likes it. Nice. So... Thanks. For variety, I'm thinking about asian free reed instruments. Stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=p660D2jtfi8#t=114 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXjMIQK6OxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EufXrBjVjaQ&t=144s (not my favourite) Is there some way to get a free reed flute in plastic? I'm a grad student, doing research. I often walk around and play when I'm working on a problem. I hate taking care of my instruments and part of the charm of plastic clarinets and ocarinas is that I can just toss them on the bed when I get a great idea and get to work immediately. Thanks!
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Aug 29, 2014 06:56
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No Gravitas posted:For variety, I'm thinking about asian free reed instruments. Stuff like this: Okay, so like a plastic bawu? For the rest reading, a bawu is a kinda hard-to-categorize Chinese instrument. It's held like a like a flute, but instead of a cutting embouchure it has a reed, but it's a metal reed kind of like in an accordion. Some people categorize it as a "free reed" instrument, which I personally don't agree with since the defining characteristic of free reeds is that each reed plays (generally) a fixed note, whereas on a bawu the reed makes the root note and your fingering the pipe changes the pitch.  I didn't think plastic ones would be much a thing, but tried googling "plastic bawu" and "pvc bawu" and came up with at least some mentions that such exist, and certain eBay sellers tend to carry them. I didn't see any on eBay at the moment, but you could try messaging the sellers who've carried them before: - http://stores.ebay.com/shop-of-east-felicity - http://stores.ebay.com/herogreatzhang FAKEEDIT: There is one supposedly PVC bawu up on eBay right now, but weirdly it's a US-located item being sold on eBay.co.uk but not on US eBay. Labeled as a PVC bawu with metal keywork: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bawu-in-F-key-three-Mechanical-keys-free-reeds-flute-/251049834903 EDIT2: recent-ish thread discussing models, you may want to actually join the forum solely to ask about platic bawu, ping billdsmall to the thread, etc.: http://starvoid.proboards.com/thread/2008 The few plastic bawu I've seen aren't too expensive, like under $100 shipped, so you can't go too wrong buying from a reputable dealer, but I'd temper expectations on quality. Also, bear in mind that the pitch, intonation, etc might be in non-Western scale variants. But if you're okay with all that I'd say go hunt one down (when I was googling a few English-language forums had players discussing owning one). If you have a friend who speaks Chinese there's probably a ton of stuff online in that language. I know zero Chinese, but using my analyst skills I dug up the terms "bawu" and "plastic" and just googled them, and gImages is showing hits for a number of what look to be plastic bawu, so it appears the idea works: 巴乌 塑料 You mostly mentioned bawu, but I did run across some mentions and sellers of plastic hulusi too:  Big picture, you'll probably find your clarinet and ocarina far more practical instruments, but if you have some loose cash and want to have a few novel instruments to play with, these seem a good option. And who knows, maybe it'll end up enchanting you and become your main instrument. If you get one at all, we expect a megapost.  PS: I, like you, have a fondness for synthetic/durable instruments, especially ones that I don't play often. That way I can chuck them in a drawer and not worry about them degrading over time or getting dinged up, and pull them out and play years later. Which reminds me, I'm taking my plastic Swedish bagpipes to Colombia, such is the plan. EDIT3: Holy poo poo, I got clever and dug up the word "固定虚拟连接" for PVC on gTranslate, combined that with the characters for bawu, put it into gImages, and found this on Amazon.cn for US$58:  No idea on quality, maybe it sucks, but looks kickin' rad. TapTheForwardAssist fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Aug 29, 2014 |
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Aug 29, 2014 15:12
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PVC is an awful, brittle kind of plastic for an application like that, googling for "ABS bawu" brought me here. ~$74, with the bag, presumably. Also with Edelweiss print or something? Don't know about quality or the seller really. Or anything about an instrument like that. Or anything at all. Just that a pvc one would break if you dropped it. e. Hulus or hulusi seems a key term for these things. Flipperwaldt fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Aug 29, 2014 |
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Aug 29, 2014 15:42
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Flipperwaldt posted:PVC is an awful, brittle kind of plastic for an application like that, googling for "ABS bawu" brought me here. If you want to match either instrument's Chinese characters with a material, it appears "树脂" is a term used to describe ABS; gTranslate renders it as "resin" which makes sense. PROTIP: if you want to find the foreign term or spelling, a clever way is to look up the English Wikipedia page, and go down to the left margin to nip over to the equivalent page in the target language, and then copy-paste the title term. I find that a lot more reliable for any technical/complex terms vice using gTranslate. EDIT: on YouTube you often find clips labeled/tagged only in the home language, so if you want clips of an odd Arabic instrument, use Wikipedia inter-language links (left margin and low down on screen) to find the Arabic spelling, for example. Same for even Latin-alphabet languages, if I want to find clavichord clips I'll also try searching the spelling from French, Italian, etc languages that might have clavichord players. You just find more and better stuff that way. TapTheForwardAssist fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Aug 29, 2014 |
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Aug 29, 2014 16:23
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Yeah, but the first time you play it in the park, you get arrested for toking...
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Aug 29, 2014 17:23
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While looking at the stores for a plastic bawu, I found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beautiful-Wooden-Carved-Toad-Wooden-Fish-/261577849713?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ce7413b71 I own this guy. Well, my wife does. Cool! I have no sense of rythm though. That handle looking stick is removable. You either hit the frog on the side for a drummy sound or slide it along the "crest"/"comb" thing on top for a surprisingly croaky sound. (And yes, if I get a bawu you guys get a megapost.)
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Aug 29, 2014 22:10
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No Gravitas posted:I own this guy. Well, my wife does. Cool! I have no sense of rythm though. Ah, somewhere I've seen one of these, maybe at a friend's house, but hadn't realized they're such a standardized thing. Apparently they're called a "frog rasp" and are traditional in some party of China.  Reminds me of another cool traditional rasp I've seen at some DC-area shows of Latin American music:  A defleshed donkey's jawbone is a popular instrument in southern Mexico and some other areas. It is hit and rasped with the stick, and the teeth are somewhat loose and rattle. I could swear I've seen synthetic versions of these too, but can't find any online at moment, though apparently real ones are only $40 or so.
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Sep 1, 2014 03:32
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My father-in-law has one of those frog rasps. Makes sense, as he's a hell of a musician and loves odd instruments. Best present the wife and I ever got him was a stump fiddle. So, for obscure instrument chat: with summer at a close, I decided that my last negative experience with a custom instrument shouldn't dismay me, so I spent some time looking for an aulos and found a German who makes them at fairly reasonable prices. So, I've shot him an e-mail asking about getting one in olive wood, in the hope that I can start playing a weird double-reed instrument. I've never played with reeds outside of my säckpipa, so this should be an interesting process. At least ancient instruments are totally sweet.
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Sep 1, 2014 05:35
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Hedningen posted:My father-in-law has one of those frog rasps. Makes sense, as he's a hell of a musician and loves odd instruments. Best present the wife and I ever got him was a stump fiddle. Not to complicate your decision, but if you're considering getting a Euro single-reeded double-tube instrument, take a look at this guy's work in modern/affordable Basque alboka: http://instrumundo.blogspot.com/2013/11/alboka-maruri.html  Last year they were €70 or so; I pinged his Facebook to see if he's still making them this year since he hasn't updated his FB recently. But the article has his email contact too.
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Sep 1, 2014 12:25
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:Not to complicate your decision, but if you're considering getting a Euro single-reeded double-tube instrument, take a look at this guy's work in modern/affordable Basque alboka: http://instrumundo.blogspot.com/2013/11/alboka-maruri.html Those are cool as hell. Part of the reason I'm looking at an aulos is the connection to classical Greek performance, as I've been rehearsing The Cyclops with some folks for a truncated street performance, and I thought adding some aulos to the performance would add a bit to the impression. I've been using my säckpipa as a somewhat effective substitute for the chorus, but trying with the authentic instrument seems fun. So, as badass as Basque instruments are, I'm looking at this from a cultural and dramatic standpoint.
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Sep 2, 2014 00:13
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Hedningen posted:Those are cool as hell. Part of the reason I'm looking at an aulos is the connection to classical Greek performance, as I've been rehearsing The Cyclops with some folks for a truncated street performance, and I thought adding some aulos to the performance would add a bit to the impression. I've been using my säckpipa as a somewhat effective substitute for the chorus, but trying with the authentic instrument seems fun. Wait, you've been using a Swedish bagpipe to provide atmospheric music for classical Greek theatre? drat, you need to get someone to record some video of a bit of rehearsal and post it on YouTube. I think folks would be fascinated to see how you're applying the instrument. Overall are you enjoy Seth's work? You got a cast-resin one, right? Plastic reeds too? Those things are near-indestructible, so I'm taking one to Bogota with me. Though I'm still pondering getting a synthetic bag for it (the only natural part it has at all) if it turns out that Latin humidity is bad on the leather. On a separate note, for Cassidy and all y'all other brass players: are there any reasonably affordable brass-family instruments that are outside the realm of Western classical music, but easily accessible? I owe a favor to my aunt, and my teenage cousin is pretty serious into French horn. I'd previously got a used wooden keyless Irish flute for their older daughter who's a serious classical flautist, and was pondering a parallel for the younger. Most things just aren't very melodic (hunt-horn, didgeridoo, etc), or are kinda pricey. If there were cornettos/zink (not modern cornet) in the $200 range that'd be awesome, but they seem to be at least $500, and the main guy making them (Chris Monk) died a few back, though someone may still be producing his designs. At $550 they're almost as pricey as a serpent, but you'd think they'd be hella easy to cast in resin. I dunno, any suggestions on a brass instrument? It'd be cool to have some kind of inexpensive and durable little thing she could carry in a backpack, take camping, etc that still used a brass embouchure.  EDIT: as of last fall, Monk designs are back in a "G2" updated form, cast resin covered in leather (link), but at £190 (U$315) they're a bit pricier than I'd want to do on an unsolicited musical gift to a teenager. Any other ideas? TapTheForwardAssist fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Sep 2, 2014 |
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Sep 2, 2014 19:28
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Lute report: - Diana Poulton's A Tutor for the Renaissance Lute, which is the standard lute reference book, is indispensable, filled with useful information, and at times turgid to the point of being unreadable. Her section on stringing and setup is baffling and is one of the few parts of the book that lacks useful illustration. The book is exhaustively researched and comprehensive and no lute player should be without it, but there are elements of it that are frustrating. - Stringing and tuning the lute is, as I expected, not a tremendous amount of fun. Keeping fifteen brand new nylon strings in tune is a challenge. Stringing is very time consuming and a little tricky because of the long, narrow pegbox and the need to loop the strings on the pegs to keep them in place. There may be a trick to it, but I don't plan on changing these strings any time soon. - The nylon frets that came with the instrument are fine. They are much too easy to move, but I haven't had an issue with them sliding during playing. The manufacturer left pencil marks at their proper locations, which is a godsend. It seems that this particular problem was exaggerated by the internet lute fondlers. -Poulton suggests that classical guitarists will have an easy time with the left hand and a much harder time with the right hand. So far I agree with her. When playing the lute you are supposed to keep your pinky finger planted on the top near the bridge ("as if it were glued there") and use the thumb and first three fingers, striking the strings near the bridge rather than over the sound hole. This feels very strange and really slows me down; also, the lute tends to turn on my lap - it's not stable like a guitar, so you really do have to keep your right hand on it to keep it in place. -Lute tablature in theory isn't hard to read at all but certainly takes some getting used to; it doesn't really help that the conventional lute tab notation uses a letter D that looks like a mutant O and a C that looks like a lower case R. As I come up to speed I may make some videos. I'm sticking with Gaspar Sanz's baby works for the moment, but later I might get into some weird modern poo poo.
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Sep 3, 2014 18:25
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Haven't posted in a long time but this summer I've been busy making weird instruments that are mainstream by this thread's standards. I made an erhu but don't have any pictures yet because I haven't bought strings yet. Don't get excited, it's kinda ghetto. Also made another dulcitar, cigar box body, mahogany neck, macassar ebony fingerboard.   Here's a video of my daughter testing it out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qowoTpBOb3o
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Sep 5, 2014 07:44
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So I built a single string cigar box guitar tuned to E. I can play some real simple bluesy kinda licks on it but that's about it. Any good resources for technique for single stringed stuff like this?
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Sep 5, 2014 22:40
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Maybe just watch a lot of Brushy One-String videos and try copying him?
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Sep 5, 2014 23:19
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Reverend Joe posted:So I built a single string cigar box guitar tuned to E. I can play some real simple bluesy kinda licks on it but that's about it. Any good resources for technique for single stringed stuff like this? have you checked on cigarboxnation.com?
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Sep 6, 2014 00:43
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wormil posted:Here's a video of my daughter testing it out. Awww, that's just adorable! It must be so cool to be able to enjoy music together. quote:So I built a single string cigar box guitar tuned to E. I can play some real simple bluesy kinda licks on it but that's about it. Any good resources for technique for single stringed stuff like this? Make sure to check out all the videos/discussions for diddly-bows as well, as the same general stylings apply for single-string. If you wanna get really artsy, try watching some ichigenkin (Japanese single-string zither) clips and try imitating those: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn3uwiv2Hwk Like a lot of these things, if you want to find the most clips, find the spelling of the instrument in Japanese and search by that, rather than by Latin spelling. quote:Lute report: Outstanding, thanks for the good report! Would you mind being a POC for any other goons that chance into this thread and are interested in lute? So far as covers, there are a scattering of lute covers on YT, but definitely could use more. I do like too that most of the covers aren't "LOL I'm playing lute so random!!!" but are actual "this song would sound great on lute". Here's a pretty serious instrumental cover of Metallica's "Nothing Else Matters": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4JxEIFzLls So if there's anything cool and intricate of modern stuff that you like playing on lute, I'm sure it'd go over well. Just make sure "lute cover" is somewhere in the title so freaks like me can find it. There aren't too many modern clavichord covers (though lots of harpsichord covers), but I did find this medley of Coldplay and whatnot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=390QK1g4C-0 I just moved to Bogota two days ago, but I've already gone downtown to see the vintage clavichord at the National Museum, and emailed a local harpsichord maker to get in touch. I'm torn between getting a clavichord, and just learning to play early clavichord and organ pieces on concertina, which would be way more portable and cheaper, plus a more niche thing that nobody's doing. 
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Sep 6, 2014 16:27
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:Outstanding, thanks for the good report! Would you mind being a POC for any other goons that chance into this thread and are interested in lute? Of course, I'd be happy to be the lute go-to person. I can at least refer to the relevant portions of Stuart's book. Also, the clavichord looks AMAZING. Boston Clavichord Society has some cool videos of clavichords in action, including one of the classic lute/CG song "Guardame las vacas": http://www.bostonclavichord.org/ Is Colombia famous for clavichords/harpsichords? EDIT: Also, a book recommendation - http://www.amazon.com/Early-Music-Very-Short-Introduction/dp/0199730768 This is Thomas Kelly's delightful tour of medieval, renaissance and baroque music. He devotes most of his text to the music itself, in its historical and cultural context, but he has quite a bit to say about the weird instruments of past eras. Gilgameshback fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Sep 7, 2014 |
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Sep 7, 2014 00:24
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Thanks so much for the book rec! Amazon goes ka-ching!
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Sep 7, 2014 01:55
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Gilgameshback posted:Is Colombia famous for clavichords/harpsichords? Not as such; it's more that clavichords were big in three cultures/regions: Germany, Scandinavia, and Iberia. I don't know if that's because the other regions of Europe abandoned clavichord for the spinet, harpsichord, etc. or what. But since clavichord was a very common instrument for the Spanish and Portuguese higher classes, and the clergy, apparently they were brought over in decent numbers to Latin America, and maybe others built here. Peter Bavington has a site documenting whatever Latin American clavichords he's run across: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/peter.bavington/website/ . Presumably these are just what remains of a much larger spread, the others having decayed, broke, lost over time. Bavington notes (scroll/click down for English) that some of the clavichords are straight European designs of the time, others a Spanish design that was a little more archaic/retro, and others developed totally distinctive Latin American features. [i]Mexican clavichord, maybe 18th C.  There's also supposedly a clavichord that the Jesuits brought to Japan as a gift in the 1600s, but we don't know much about it. Being me, I signed up for the limited free JSTOR account just to read that article. If I were to get into clavichord, I'd probably focus on Iberian music, partially because I speak Spanish and it'd be easier to read scholarly materials about the genre, and partially because it appears in the Anglosphere that Iberian clavichord gets the least shrift. Oh, the reason there's that clavichord/harpsichord exhibit at the Museo Nacional in Bogota is because Rafael Puyana Michelsen recently died. He was a hometown boy who played clavichord and harpsichord, though by adulthood he spent more time in New England and Paris then here. He studied under famous players, trained other famous players, and collected some cool keyboards that were donated to the museum on his death. 
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Sep 7, 2014 17:13
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How is it transitioning from guitar to lute?
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Sep 7, 2014 17:49
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wormil posted:How is it transitioning from guitar to lute? Difficult, but clearly easier than starting lute from scratch. The lute has a great deal in common with the classical guitar, so if you have some classical/fingerstyle technique in place you will benefit. I am finding that keeping the right hand anchored to the top is the most challenging part - the left hand fingering is straightforward, and the doubled strings have so far posed no problem to either hand (I don't really even notice the difference). Just holding on to the lute is kind of a challenge as well, given the bowl back. Also, now that the strings have been on for a week or so tuning is much less of an issue. Surprisingly, the instrument keeps its tuning very well, and all the tuning pegs work perfectly. I don't know if I got very lucky or if the Pakistani lutes have just gotten better in the last few years. TTFA, I can't wait to hear more about the clavichord, it's such a cool instrument. I have always loved harpsichord music, but I didn't know the difference between harpsichord and clavichord until your post.
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Sep 7, 2014 18:07
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How much pain am I looking at if I want to acquire a piano accordion? I love love LOVE the sound and can play keyboard instruments well enough already, but looking around it seems finding an affordable/used/functional instrument is going to be interesting.  And yes, I have been a lifelong Weird Al fan. 
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Sep 7, 2014 18:34
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One of my favourite videos with clavichords (a smaller fretted one): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb_2O6yAltQ
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Sep 8, 2014 12:07
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Longhouse posted:One of my favourite videos with clavichords (a smaller fretted one): Though I like the tunes Bandera chooses, I've found his selfmade Italian clavichord to be kinda chunky-sounding, whereas I like more resonance in a clavichord. I'd like to find more clips of people playing more legato, holding notes longer, to demonstrate the sustain on their clavichords. One interesting example of a deliberately less-resonant clavichord is this single-strung model: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYVyccDJ5A0. Instead of having two strings played as a pair by a key, it has single strings. Sounds kinda more like a plucked instrument, or even kinda MIDI-esque. The doubling of strings apparently adds a lot to resonance. quote:TTFA, I can't wait to hear more about the clavichord, it's such a cool instrument. I have always loved harpsichord music, but I didn't know the difference between harpsichord and clavichord until your post. Have I done a megapost about clavichord in this thread or no? It's gotten so long I misrecall. I debated doing a megathread for clavichord in Musician's Lounge, but it's a pretty small/slow subforum, with people looking a lot more focused on metal, electronica, and some classical. Here might be as good an audience as any. quote:How much pain am I looking at if I want to acquire a piano accordion? I love love LOVE the sound and can play keyboard instruments well enough already, but looking around it seems finding an affordable/used/functional instrument is going to be interesting. And yes, I have been a lifelong Weird Al fan. Piano accordion is one of those instruments I don't know as much about, and oddly enough there isn't a really good single forum for its players. I don't know if that's because a lot of them are genre-based players that are instead on a jazz forum or polka forum, or whether it's a common secondary instrument where people drift into it. In whatever case, the word on the street appears to be that just about anything serious requires 48-bass or better, but the larger you get the heavier those things get. You could get a little 16-bass or 24-bass if you find one cheap and just want to feel the instrument out, just bear in mind the limitations and think of it as your haul-around. The main general advice I'd suggest as a concertinist: - If you want to buy a cheap beater, check Craigslist, don't pay any more than $50-75 for a no-name instrument, and feel out every single button (in both directions) before buying to make sure it's acceptably in-tune (if not perfect) for your purposes. - If you've thought about this a lot and more seriously want a decent instrument, either eBay or an online accordion store would be an option. For that I would stick to buying a brand-name that is recognizable; not "weird Bulgarian thing #7" or "generic Italian-sounding name some factory used 1974-1977". There's of course Hohner, Paolo Soprani, Weltmeister, but probably a bunch of PA-specific labels I don't know well. - The biggest thing for eBay stuff: if you buy from someone who's all "it's been sitting in the closet since my dad died, but I tried it and it sounds pretty good", there's a decent chance it's fallen apart inside, and with those zillion reeds and valves that could get crazy pricey. Barring an incredibly cheap deal where you want to roll the dice, I'd stick to buying from people who can genuinely say "I play accordion and I did XYZ checks and here's how it looks", or "our technicians did a basic cleanup of it, it's on-pitch, etc. etc.". It'll cost more, but getting an accordion that needs a lot of work is a major rear end-pain, so paying $500 vice $200 for something guaranteed to work is worth it. If that's just too pricey, haunt Craigslist for a beater deal that you can try out in person. - Along with above, ideally you want to buy from an eBay or other online seller that also has a good return policy. Accordions have a bunch of moving parts, so if you find something wrong you want to be able to return it. And you want someone that will seriously work with you on insurance/refund if it's damaged in shipping. Buying large free-reeds is not a good time for "caveat emptor". Those are my gut responses, definitely open to hearing more ideas from any PA players here.  EDIT: If there are any accordion fans in the Seattle area, there's a guy with a full-size Sonola chord organ up in Snohomish for $100 on Craigslist. In case his add drops off, his phone is in the Eastside area-code starting with "4", and it's 879-4094. If you want a cool instrument that serves as a small piece of furniture and works basically like an accordion and an organ combined, this might not be a bad deal if in decent condition. This has like way more chord buttons than the small ones; it's a 72-bass instead of the usual 12 or so on the small cheapies. Here's a girl playing a similar instrument: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtayZsV7fV0 
TapTheForwardAssist fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 16:19
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Reading the different posts about concertina have made me want to maybe save up for one. I almost did accordion a while back, but it didn't really work out, but concertina seems like it might be neat to try. I will probably be trying to save up for one of the beginner models from concertina connections. However, I am stuck between the Anglo (Rochelle) and the Duet (Elise) and was looking for some advice. I currently play Oldtime/Clawhammer banjo, Old Time Fiddle, and uke (and have interest in Irish trad music, too), so naturally I thought the Anglo would be the one for me. Then I started reading some of TTFA's posts about Duet, and I am kind of leaning more towards that. It might be neat to play some old folk/old time songs, but since I can more or less do those on banjo and fiddle, so I thought it might be neat to have something to just jam with people or accompany myself singing or do weird covers of pop songs (maybe what I do on uke right now), so I though the duet might be better? I also kind of like the fact that with the bass notes on one side, it is kind of accordion-ish? However, I don't really see a lot of Youtube clips of the Elise, nor do I see people doing popular music covers on concertina. Any suggestions to check out? I also worry about the lack of range on the Elise (this is the main thing making my choice difficult and keeping Anglo as an option). I worry about not having a lot of notes to work with or not being able to accommodate keys for different songs. Anybody have any thoughts on this? I also wondered about resources for songs to play on the Elise. I know it comes with a book with some songs that teach you how to play. But once I exhaust those, what would be a good place to find songs that would fit within its range of notes? Any good books or websites that you recommend?
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Sep 10, 2014 03:13
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You would have to be crazy as balls to take up duet concertina, for which there is essentially no tradition and no literature. Not saying that's bad, but is that you?
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Sep 10, 2014 04:05
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slap me silly posted:You would have to be crazy as balls to take up duet concertina, for which there is essentially no tradition and no literature. Not saying that's bad, but is that you? I honestly don't know as much about duet concertina as I'd like to, hence my post. Is it true that there is essentially no tradition and literature? When I was trying to research it, it said they came about in the 1850s and were also popular in the prewar salvation army concertina bands, so I was assuming there should be some tradition/literature. I was also basing it on the fact that TTFA recommended it, especially for jamming and accompaniment (saying that it was more flexible than Anglo or English). Then again, I don't know from concertinas, so any information or advice would be appreciated.
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Sep 10, 2014 04:39
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Well, in all fairness I have a strong bias towards the Anglo  It has history in Irish, English, Boeremusiek. Salvation Army used everything, but duet and English most recently, right? I mean, from what I know. I don't actually research this stuff, I just pontificate.Duet always struck me as one of those things that seems good on paper but just doesn't cut the mustard in person.
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Sep 10, 2014 04:47
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I think it is still possible to play good music on a thing with no literature and no tradition.
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Sep 10, 2014 05:13
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Ok ok I will make a real answer. The Elise (34 key model, right?) has about 1.5 octaves on each side. That means crossing sides for most stuff. A lot of folk tunes won't fit on the right hand in standard keys, so you'd either have to play them half on each side or accommodate some missing high notes. It has limited chromaticity: you get F, C, G, D and related minors. That's less than the 30 button C/G Anglo, which can also play in A and (awkwardly) in Eflat, E, Bflat. However the duet is much more versatile in terms of the chords you can make. The push-pull thing is a big deal (same note like duet vs different note like Anglo). It's a completely different bellows mindset - learn one, you still don't have the other. I don't know anything about the fingering. Anglo fingering is intuitive to me now, but that's largely because I've been playing it so long. The Hayden duet layout is really rational and a couple of basic chord patterns would get you a long way. Overall if I were going to trouble to learn duet, I'd look for one with more range and available keys than the Elise. But if you're committed to the concept of the duet it would make a lot of sense to start with this one.
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Sep 10, 2014 05:31
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slap me silly posted:Ok ok I will make a real answer. The Elise (34 key model, right?) has about 1.5 octaves on each side. That means crossing sides for most stuff. A lot of folk tunes won't fit on the right hand in standard keys, so you'd either have to play them half on each side or accommodate some missing high notes. It has limited chromaticity: you get F, C, G, D and related minors. That's less than the 30 button C/G Anglo, which can also play in A and (awkwardly) in Eflat, E, Bflat. However the duet is much more versatile in terms of the chords you can make. This was actually quite helpful. I am actually not married to the idea of the Duet, and the Anglo is still very much on the table (actually trying to get some info on here to help me decide). You point about chromaticity is well made-that is actually what I was very awkwardly trying to ask about when I mentioned "range" and "not having enough notes". Being able to play in G, C, D, and A with an Anglo would be great for Old Time since the repertoire has a lot of overlap with Irish trad. And it seems like it would be good for other folk/dance stuff. Also, I kind of like the push/pull (bisonoric?) aspect of the Anglo. How is the chromaticity of the Anglo? I assume with the Elise, you have 34 notes, so 1.5 octaves as you mentioned. What about the Anglo? I am looking a 30 buttons x 2 (for push/pull), but assuming there is probably some overlap with notes? Do you get plenty of accidentals? Also, curious if you play a Rochelle (and what you think of it) as opposed to some (all) of the pricier Anglos. I was looking at the HomeWood musical Instrument website, and the guy who runs it (Mr. Tedrow) plays and services concertinas, and for an extra $85 he will disassemble, adjust, and upgrade, as well as do setup for the Rochelle/Elise ("Tedrow adjustment" as he calls it), which I thought might be a good thing as I don't foresee myself dropping thousands of dollars on a concertina and just want something that sounds good to dick around on. Thoughts?
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Sep 10, 2014 16:31
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Jouhikko update: shaping is done, color gets applied next. I picked the location for the output jack (we're putting piezo pickups in it) last night. Hopefully pictures soon.
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Sep 10, 2014 16:43
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The Elise is admittedly "babby's first Duet", but Concertina Connection overall has serviceable/affordable/reliable student products. Folks have pointed out that of the Rochelle, Jack/Jackie, and Elise, only the Rochelle is a "full" instrument. A 30-button is about as small as English concertinas can practically go, so the Jack(ie) is fully chromatic but with limited range and without the duplicated row that gives you easier alternative fingerings. The Elise ends up being a pretty good "folkbox", though not at all practical for classical/jazz/etc. It plays in F/C/G/D (and related minors/modes), chords pretty well, and puts out decent tone and volume. If someone is really into the duet idea and wants to dip a toe, and is fine with being only partially chromatic, it can do a great job backing up songs, playing some fills in a larger group, etc. It's just not an intense melody instrument. FWIW, I played a goodly number of house parties with the Elise just fine all of last year, but after playing it pretty intensely for a few months (like playing about every day) I definitely wanted an upgrade for smoother action and full chromatics, so I put in an order on a Beaumont and played that for garage-band shows all year until I moved to Bogotá (where I have a small/cheap Crane Duet). If you're enchanted by Duet but want chromaticity, you can buy some of the basic vintage Duets for not too much. You can find some of the smaller Crane system (42-button, maybe 48b) for under $1000 if you hunt around, and same maybe for a 46b Maccann. These systems don't have the cool transposability of the Hayden system, but many players have argued that once you get past the beginner stage, any Duet system is as easy as the others. Maccann is by far the most plentiful, so if you want to cash in on vintage concertinas, and don't mind a little initial learning curve of figuring out the keyboard, it's a good option. Cranes are less-common, and arguably rising in price as some Elise players switch to Crane in order to get an affordable vintage box; Crane being vaguely more familiar to a Hayden player. But if you're into Duet and starting from scratch, and want a wide and affordable selection, I'd go Maccann. I broadly agree with slap me silly's comments, though I take them less as bugs and more as features. I got into Duet precisely because it has no (extant) tradition. Plus I wanted a concertina that acted like a little organ/harmonium, and could do nice low drones, play some dissonances well, etc. I would disagree about it being only good "on paper": it's the most harmonically intricate of the concertina types, allows the most complex chords, counter-melodies, descants, etc. So far as literature: you don't really study Duet materials, it's more that you learn how to play Duet, and then you just play whatever repertoire you can fit or jury-rig onto it. It honestly never occurred to me that not having a "how to play duet" book was a problem, since I just take bits and pieces of techniques from other instruments. There is a serialized Hayden tutorial on Concertina.net, and it covers the basics and is slowly moving forward. Honestly, more than a "how to do songs" I think Hayden in particular more just needs instructions to explain the versatility of the system, how to form transposable chords, etc.  Overall, for laertes22 I'd note that given your background, Anglo would make a lot of sense, as it works well for the genres you describe (though free reeds aren't common in modern Old Time revival, though they would've been historically). Anglo strongly reminds me of banjo, where notes just "fall into place" by virtue of the push-pull harmonies. Do note too that Anglo, like Duet, has bass on the left and high on the right; the only concertina that doesn't do that is the back-forth English which splits the whole scale between two hands. English most resembles a violin in mentality, Anglo the banjo, and Duet the piano/organ. As you get jazzier, Anglo gets trickier but not impossible at all, just a mental exercise. Duet has no problem with complex jazzy chords and dissonant intervals, but it pays a price in not having the speed of an Anglo; speed being probably Duet's weakest point. For Irish music, if you're talking about ballads or playing slow airs, Duet does great, but if you want to sit in a pub with the fellas and play jigs and reels at high speed, a Duet isn't going to be able to keep up. None of these answers is wrong, you'll make it work in any case. If you're short on cash, either CC model is good so long as you're okay with the Elise being a folk-Duet vice a full keyboard. If you think on Duet and love the idea, and can raise $700 or so, you can start poking around Cnet, email Greg Jowaisas, etc. to find a decent student Maccann. If you're dead set on Anglo and have maybe around $1000 or so, with some poking about you could find a good-quality hybrid Anglo that'd be way smoother/faster than the Rochelle. If you need help finding any instrument, PM me and I can give you some input on where to start inquiring (depending on what country you live in). I'll post some clips now. Note that there isn't any substantive difference in listening to Hayden/Maccann/Crane/Jeffries Duet clips. Largely a Duet is a Duet, so any clips you see apply as well to any Duet fingering layout. And Anglo of course has a good amount of coverage. English gets way more use as a singer's backup than I think it merits, which to my mind is a result of whatever weird dynamics of the 1960s folk revival, but that's an arcane argument for another venue. Duet: - Stu Estell (Lachenalia) on a Maccann Duet, covering seminal drone band Earth. This sort of slow drony sound and building dissonances is what I wanted when I took up Duet, though I hadn't seen this clip at the time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcn2iQyEAZc. Stu is a big Cnet member. - Łukasz Martynowicz, young Polish guy who posts on Cnet a lot, doing an instrumental cover of the indie band Beirut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-bySYW3XVA . He's using a CC Elise, but he's tricked it out by replacing and bushing the buttons for smoothness, and has some ornate strap settup to hold it. - Duet doing a Shetland fiddle slow-air with some lovely organ-like droney chords on the left hand once they kick in at 1:27. IIRC, this clip is when Jeff just started playing, and I also played this arrangement pretty early, so this is a medium-beginner level arrangement. Jeff pops into Cnet often. - Playing an accordion-like arrangment of a Russian tune on a huge old Crane Duet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmRrIaWN-rE - Some Argentine tango on a medium-large Maccann: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFaGSDjfbsg - Geoffery Lakeman is a singer-songwriter in I think Cornwall. A lot of his Duet arrangements are more accordion-like on the left hand, but it's a little more piano-like on this track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtRPow5iPug Anglo: - Jody Kruskal is the undisputed expert on Anglo for Old Time music. If you have interest in Old Time Anglo, go listen to all his stuff on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npgPo-3jxKk, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqrpQBhwY-E, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekjAFWEHev4, etc. - Jazz cover of Blue Skies with guitar and Anglo. Note the fast melodies, and how Anglo adds (unless a skilled player tries to avoid it) a bounciness and choppiness to the tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xexF_fll4o0 - This is really, really simple chord playing on a lovely Hohner, but boyo does a surprisingly compelling cover of Red Hot Chili Peppers on Anglo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4mr-oIewvw - For Irish trad, almost every Irish concertinist plays Anglo in the "Noel Hill" style, a pretty recent invention which has brushed away the older styles of Irish concertina. Here's Noel on RTE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_yPK65iTAQ. Basically any educational materials, workshops, etc for Irish Anglo these days will be Noel Hill-style. 
TapTheForwardAssist fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Sep 10, 2014 |
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Sep 10, 2014 17:01
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Holy poo poo, you are the master of the effortpost.TapTheForwardAssist posted:For Irish trad, almost every Irish concertinist plays Anglo in the "Noel Hill" style Mary MacNamara: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWXWD2sVe8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUPiqoIDW1o Elizabeth Crotty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8MyFa81ooY Chris Droney, although I think his rhythm sucks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbTweQZTbbk To give some more detail about the C/G Anglo and keys. G is the easiest to play in - lots of the notes and chords are available in multiple locations and both directions of the bellows. C is next. F and D are probably about the same (F is actually harder for me but that's mostly because I never use it). A is a little awkward at the G#'s but still entirely doable. E starts to get pretty heavily into the third row. E flat is mostly in the third row and is kind of a clusterfuck. I have never played in B flat but I think it'd be a little easier than E flat. Basically the farther you get from G, the weirder and less flexible the fingerings are and the less options you have for chording. That's compared to the Elise where F, C, G, D are all roughly the same and anything else is impossible unless you can do without some notes of the scale. Models: I play one of Bob Tedrow's right now. It's solid, he knows what he's doing. I used to have a Stagi but wore it right the gently caress out after five years or so. I have never picked up a cheaper one that I thought was really playable. But I've also never tried the Rochelle, which is specifically intended to be the solution to that and which I hear good things about. I would cheerfully sic one of Bob Tedrow's or The Button Box's fixed up Rochelles on a friend of mine. slap me silly fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Sep 11, 2014 |
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Sep 11, 2014 02:40
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slap me silly posted:Holy poo poo, you are the master of the effortpost. I spent years as a foreign policy analyst, so digesting reams of data and shaping it into something is kinda my schtick. My effortposts tend to be a bit more free-assocation though, so they get rambly, but I pack some info in there. quote:Tell me. If you take up Anglo for Irish tunes, do us all a favor and practice along-the-row too, with bellows ornamentation and not such an emphasis on the pipers' cuts. Is that a clear way to describe it? I dunno. Here are some people I hear it from: This. Noel Hill style is lovely, but it's kinda piledrivered the scene. There are some scatterings of folks playing the old along-the-rows, and plenty of recordings thereof, so I'm hoping to see it come back into style and take at least a corner of the market. A nice thing about ATR too is that you can play a lot of it on a 20b. The Irish have really driven up the prices on vintage 30b concertinas due to those being almost requisite for NH-style, and it'll get worse still once Ireland recovers economically. Meanwhile good 20b concertinas are running 1/3 or 1/4 of what 30b run, and even 26b which has enough buttons for 95% of players sell for much less than 30b. Almost nobody makes good modern 20b because there's just no market in it, but they are slick little boxes. quote:Models: I play one of Bob Tedrow's right now. It's solid, he knows what he's doing. I used to have a Stagi but wore it right the gently caress out after five years or so. I have never picked up a cheaper one that I thought was really playable. But I've also never tried the Rochelle, which is specifically intended to be the solution to that and which I hear good things about. I would cheerfully sic one of Bob Tedrow's or The Button Box's fixed up Rochelles on a friend of mine. Which Tedrow model have you? I've heard a mix of opinions on his stuff, as he's kind of an experimental/unconventional guy. His "Zephyr" compact models are supposed to be brilliant, but I've heard some complaints that his large Haydens are way too clunky. But he clearly has some successful lines, and I give him props for being way more daring than most makers. I'm always kvetching that modern makers are too drat conservative in their fretwork (the cut-out bits at the concertina's end where the sound comes out), just aping Victorian styles 150 years later. There are only a few makers doing edgier fretwork, and some if it is gorgeous:  In other news, hey No Gravitas, does your wife hate me yet? If she does, please do note that this thread has led you to the very most affordable and durable instruments, and cost you way less than a taste for scotch or even a snowboarding trip would. That said, dig this for £35: http://www.hansonclarinets.com/Hanson_Clarinet_Company._Making_Music_in_Great_Britain./Chalumeau.html 
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Sep 11, 2014 15:55
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