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Libluini
May 18, 2012

I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...
Grimey Drawer

Lucy Heartfilia posted:

Really? Soon noone will be able to go to space?

Except the Chinese. We could ask them if they take a few of our astronauts with them. :v:

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Killer-of-Lawyers
Apr 22, 2008

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020
This is a bit less dramatic than Kessler Syndrome, but it has a certain schadenfreude feel to it if this leads to a moratorium on manned space flight until the power blocks fix their interdependence.

Mc Do Well
Aug 2, 2008

by FactsAreUseless
I don't think Space X is dependent on Russia.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

McDowell posted:

I don't think Space X is dependent on Russia.

Yeah, but it would be supposedly be until December 2015 at the earliest before the human capable Dragon craft is ready for the ISS. Personally, I think it wasn't a ready idea on relying on the Russians before we have an alternative ready.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Sep 10, 2014

bignose
Mar 21, 2006
fucked up
Have you guys read this? I thought it was quite interesting!
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-putin-revolutionizing-information-warfare/379880/

code:
At the NATO summit in Wales last week, General Philip Breedlove, the military alliance’s top commander, made a bold declaration. Russia, he said, is waging
 “the most amazing information warfare blitzkrieg we have ever seen in the history of information warfare.”

It was something of an underestimation. The new Russia doesn’t just deal in the petty disinformation, forgeries, lies, leaks, and cyber-sabotage usually associated
with information warfare. It reinvents reality, creating mass hallucinations that then translate into political action. Take Novorossiya, the name Vladimir Putin has
given to the huge wedge of southeastern Ukraine he might, or might not, consider annexing. The term is plucked from tsarist history, when it represented a different
geographical space. Nobody who lives in that part of the world today ever thought of themselves as living in Novorossiya and bearing allegiance to it—at least until
several months ago. Now, Novorossiya is being imagined into being: Russian media are showing maps of its ‘geography,’ while Kremlin-backed politicians are writing
its ‘history’ into school textbooks. There’s a flag and even a news agency (in English and Russian). There are several Twitter feeds. It’s like something out of a
Borges story—except for the very real casualties of the war conducted in its name.

The invention of Novorossiya is a sign of Russia’s domestic system of information manipulation going global. Today’s Russia has been shaped by political
technologists—the viziers of the system who, like so many post-modern Prosperos, conjure up puppet political parties and the simulacra of civic movements to keep the
nation distracted as Putin’s clique consolidates power. In the philosophy of these political technologists, information precedes essence. “I remember creating the
idea of the ‘Putin majority’ and hey, presto, it appeared in real life,” Gleb Pavlovsky, a political technologist who worked on Putin's election campaigns but has
since left the Kremlin, told me recently. “Or the idea that ‘there is no alternative to Putin.’ We invented that. And suddenly there really was no alternative.”

“If previous authoritarian regimes were three parts violence and one part propaganda,” argues Igor Yakovenko, a professor of journalism at the Moscow State Institute
of International Relations, “this one is virtually all propaganda and relatively little violence. Putin only needs to make a few arrests—and then amplify the message 
through his total control of television.”

We saw a similar dynamic at work on the international stage in the final days of August, when an apparent Russian military incursion into Ukraine—and a relatively
minor one at that—was made to feel momentously threatening. Putin invoked the need for talks on the statehood of southeastern Ukraine (with language that seemed
almost purposefully ambiguous), leaving NATO stunned and Kiev intimidated enough to agree to a ceasefire. Once again, the term ‘Novorossiya’ made its way into
Putin’s remarks, creating the sense that large territories were ready to secede from Ukraine when, in reality, the insurgents hold only a sliver of land. (For an
arlier example of these geopolitical tricks, see Dmitry Medvedev’s presidency from 2008 to 2012, when Russia’s decoy leader inspired American faith in the
possibility of a westward-facing Russia while giving the Kremlin time to cement power at home and entrench its networks abroad.)

* * *

The belief in the absolute power of propaganda has roots in Soviet thinking. Jacques Ellul, in his classic 1965 study of the subject, wrote, “The Communists, who do
not believe in human nature but only in the human condition, believe that propaganda is all-powerful, legitimate (whenever they employ it), and instrumental in
creating a new type of man.”

But there is one great difference between Soviet propaganda and the latest Russian variety. For the Soviets, the idea of truth was important—even when they were
lying. Soviet propaganda went to great lengths to ‘prove’ that the Kremlin’s theories or bits of disinformation were fact. When the U.S. government accused the
Soviets of spreading disinformation—such as the story that the CIA invented AIDS as a weapon—it would cause howls of outrage from top Russian figures, including
General Secretary Mikhail Gorbachev.

"The idea that 'there is no alternative to Putin.' We invented that. And suddenly there really was no alternative."

In today’s Russia, by contrast, the idea of truth is irrelevant. On Russian ‘news’ broadcasts, the borders between fact and fiction have become utterly blurred.
Russian current-affairs programs feature apparent actors posing as refugees from eastern Ukraine, crying for the cameras about invented threats from imagined fascist
gangs. During one Russian news broadcast, a woman related how Ukrainian nationalists had crucified a child in the eastern Ukrainian city of Sloviansk. When Alexei 
Volin, Russia’s deputy minister of communications, was confronted with the fact that the crucifixion story was a fabrication, he showed no embarrassment, instead
suggesting that all that mattered were ratings. “The public likes how our main TV channels present material, the tone of our programs,” he said. “The share of
viewers for news programs on Russian TV has doubled over the last two months.” The Kremlin tells its stories well, having mastered the mixture of authoritarianism
and entertainment culture. The notion of ‘journalism,’ in the sense of reporting ‘facts’ or ‘truth,’ has been wiped out. In a lecture last year to journalism
students at Moscow State University, Volin suggested that students forget about making the world a better place. “We should give students a clear understanding: They
are going to work for The Man, and The Man will tell them what to write, what not to write, and how this or that thing should be written,” he said. “And The Man has 
the right to do it, because he pays them.”

The point of this new propaganda is not to persuade anyone, but to keep the viewer hooked and distracted—to disrupt Western narratives rather than provide a
counternarrative. It is the perfect genre for conspiracy theories, which are all over Russian TV. When the Kremlin and its affiliated media outlets spat out
outlandish stories about the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine in July—reports that characterized the crash as everything from an assault
by Ukrainian fighter jets following U.S. instructions, to an attempted NATO attack on Putin’s private jet—they were trying not so much to convince viewers of any on
version of events, but rather to leave them confused, paranoid, and passive—living in a Kremlin-controlled virtual reality that can no longer be mediated or debated
by any appeal to ‘truth.’

* * *

Now Russia is exporting its reality-reinventing model through the hundreds of millions of dollars that it spends on international broadcasters like the rolling,
multilingual news channel RT (Russia Today). Domestically, RT helps convince Russians that their government is strong enough to compete with the CNNs of the world.
In the United States, RT isn’t taken too seriously (if the channel manages to sow some doubt among Americans, all the better in Moscow's view). But in Europe,
Russian propaganda is more potent, working alongside the Kremlin’s influence over local media as well as economic and energy pressures.

The situation is tensest in the Baltic countries, whose large Russian populations are serviced by Russian-language TV channels like the Latvia-based PBK, which
receives Kremlin programs at very low rates. ‘‘Huge parts of our population live in a separate reality created by Russian media,” says Raul Rebane, an expert on
propaganda in Estonia, where a quarter of the population is ethnic Russian. “This makes consensual politics impossible.” In his research on how Bulgarian media
covered the conflict in Ukraine, Christo Grozev, of the Bulgaria-based Risk Management Lab, found that the majority of the country’s newspapers followed Russian
rather than Ukrainian narratives about events such as the downing of Flight MH17. “It’s not merely a case of sympathy or language,” Grozev says. “The Russian media
just tell more and better stories, and that’s what gets reprinted.” Organizations like the Ukraine-based StopFake.org have been working hard to expose disinformation
in Russian and foreign media. But for every ‘fake’ they catch, 
Kremlin-allied news outlets produce a thousand more. These news organizations don’t care if they’re caught in a lie. They care only about clicks and being compelling.

As the Kremlin’s propaganda campaign intensifies, the West is having its own crisis of faith in the idea of ‘truth.’
Like its domestic equivalents, RT also focuses on conspiracy theories—from 9/11 truthers to the hidden Zionist hand in Syria’s civil war. Western critics often
snigger at these claims, but the coverage has a receptive audience. In a recent paper, “The Conspiratorial Mindset in the Age of Transition,” which examined
conspiracy theories in France, Hungary, and Slovakia, a team of researchers from leading European think tanks reported that supporters of far-right parties tend to
be more likely than supporters of other parties to believe in conspiracies. And right-wing nationalist parties, which are often allied ideologically and financially
with the Kremlin, are rising. In Hungary, Jobbik is now the second-largest political party. In France, Marine Le Pen’s National Front recently won 25 percent of the
vote in elections for the European parliament.

“Is there more interest in conspiracy theories because far-right parties are growing, or are far-right parties growing because more conspiracy thinking is being
pumped into the information space?” asks Gleb Pavlovsky, a little wickedly.

The United States, meanwhile, is struggling with its messaging to the outside world. America is in an “information war and we are losing that war,” Hillary Clinton
told Congress in 2011, citing the success of Russian and Chinese media.

* * *

Just as the Kremlin’s international propaganda campaign intensifies, the West is having its own crisis of faith in the idea of ‘truth.’ It’s been a long time coming.
Back in 1962, Daniel Boorstin, who would later serve as librarian of the U.S. Congress, wrote in The Image about how advances in advertising and television meant,
“The question, ‘Is it real?’ is less important than, ‘Is it newsworthy?’ ... We are threatened by a new and a peculiarly American menace … the menace of unreality.”
By the 2000s, this idea had moved from the realm of commerce to the realm of high politics, captured in the now-legendary quote from an unnamed George W. Bush aide
in The New York Times: “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act
again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just
study what we do.”

The pressure on reality from capitalism and Capitol Hill coincides with an anti-establishment drive in the U.S. that likewise claims that all truth is relative. In a
Prospect magazine review of Glenn Greenwald’s No Place to Hide, for instance, George Packer writes, “Greenwald has no use for the norms of journalism. He rejects 
objectivity, as a reality and an ideal.” (Similarly, RT’s managing director once told me that “there is no such thing as objective reporting.”) Examining the sins of
omission, biased value judgments, and half-truths in Greenwald’s book, Packer concludes that “they reveal a mind that has liberated itself from the basic claims of
fairness. Once the norms of journalism are dismissed, a number of constraints and assumptions fall away.” The ties that bind Greenwald and the Kremlin consist of
more than a shared desire to ensure Edward Snowden’s safety. In some dark, ideological wood, Putin the authoritarian gay-basher and Greenwald the gay, leftist
libertarian meet and agree. And as the consensus for reality-based politics fractures, that space becomes ripe for exploitation. It’s precisely this trend that the 
Kremlin hopes to exploit.

Ultimately, many people in Russia and around the world understand that Russian political parties are hollow and Russian news outlets are churning out fantasies. But
insisting on the lie, the Kremlin intimidates others by showing that it is in control of defining ‘reality.’ This is why it’s so important for Moscow to do away with
truth. If nothing is true, then anything is possible. We are left with the sense that we don’t know what Putin will do next—that he’s unpredictable and thus
dangerous. We’re rendered stunned, spun, and flummoxed by the Kremlin’s weaponization of absurdity and unreality.

Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012


People love to be deceived it seems. Disgusting how shameless Russias lies are.

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010

Lucy Heartfilia posted:

People love to be deceived it seems. Disgusting how shameless Russias lies are.

Lies are one of the most effective weapons known to man.

Forgall
Oct 16, 2012

by Azathoth
Driving your own people literally insane is a good strategy.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002
Lies are best spread on fertile ground.

Reince Penis
Nov 15, 2007

by R. Guyovich

bignose posted:

Have you guys read this? I thought it was quite interesting!
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-putin-revolutionizing-information-warfare/379880/

code:
The point of this new propaganda is not to persuade anyone, but to keep the viewer hooked and distracted—to disrupt Western narratives rather than provide a counternarrative.
[...]
 We’re rendered stunned, spun, and flummoxed by the Kremlin’s weaponization of absurdity and unreality.

I see the exact same strategies being used by right wing politicians in Canada. Rob Ford would be exhibit A. Difference being of course that news outlets don't need any coercion from government here, they're reaping enough profits from the 'keeping viewers distracted' part.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
http://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2014/09/10/7037350/
(In Russian): a pretty interesting interview with Yuriy Buryukov (Wings of Phoenix), who is a volunteer organization leader that did a lit to help supply Ukrainian Army. He is pretty critical of volunteer batallions, the overall command organization and the generals.

SA_Avenger
Oct 22, 2012

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Where did Neville Chamberlain find a time machine?

I know :godwin: and all, but Jesus. The EU or NATO should seek to appease Russia despite its increasingly aggressive and nationalistic foreign policy because otherwise the Russians will be sad and in a few decades they might still be sore about not getting to invade their neighbors on a whim?

No. Not on a whim. From Russia's point of view this is totally justified and necessary because their mindset and politic is different (not saying I agree with it but like I said I don't think we can stop it from doing what it wants at a reasonable cost). The current crisis is caused by former rebutal of Russia (we basically told it to gently caress off 15 years ago) and our inability to predict it'll grow back to a more sizeable power eventually and thus have to reassert it's power on closer Neighbors
The west only cares for short term gains nothing further than the next 5 years. The current situation is a serious setback to relations between the west and the east. While it'd be easy to blame it all on Russia I think it's mainly a distorted way to look at it (conveniently our way). From Russia's point of view we had no right to mengle in the current situation in Ukraine (and what they do is mostly to make sure we do not mengle in the future). When you think of it why Russia or anyone should see differently what it's doing in Ukraine and what US did in Irak or NATO did in Afghanistan. They did not sanctionned us back then so not sure they were expecting much this time, the fact that we did for no real gain is imho shooting ourselves in the foot for the long term.

Majorian
Jul 1, 2009

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Where did Neville Chamberlain find a time machine?

I know :godwin: and all, but Jesus. The EU or NATO should seek to appease Russia despite its increasingly aggressive and nationalistic foreign policy because otherwise the Russians will be sad and in a few decades they might still be sore about not getting to invade their neighbors on a whim?

I don't think we should leave Ukraine to its fate of being dominated by Russia for another few centuries, but I also don't think it's particularly fair to just write off SA_Avenger's post as "appeasement." The U.S. should weigh its interests, and recognize that having a Russia that is at least cooperative with those interests after this particular crisis is over is, in fact, a top priority.

Vladimir Putin
Mar 17, 2007

by R. Guyovich
I'm sorry but I find I hard I believe this is all because Russia wanted to be best friends with the west and we rejected them. What is this some sort of remake of Mean Girls?

ass struggle
Dec 25, 2012

by Athanatos
Welp, DNR says it started beheading Ukrainian soldiers.

:nms: For obvious reasons

http://i.imgur.com/7raij2P.png


Text reads:
"packages to the homeland of punishers that shoot our guys and civilians".

ass struggle fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Sep 10, 2014

Dusty Baker 2
Jul 8, 2011

Keyboard Inghimasi

sparatuvs posted:

Welp, DNR says it started beheading Ukrainian soldiers.

:nms: For obvious reasons

http://i.imgur.com/7raij2P.png


Text reads:
"packages to the homeland of punishers that shoot our guys and civilians".

Holy poo poo. What's the source on this? Other than that screenshot, is there anything else that verifies it?

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang

sparatuvs posted:

Welp, DNR says it started beheading Ukrainian soldiers.

:nms: For obvious reasons

http://i.imgur.com/7raij2P.png


Text reads:
"packages to the homeland of punishers that shoot our guys and civilians".

This is totally justified and necessary. We should absolutely leave these people to do this so that we don't offend Russia.

skipThings
May 21, 2007

Tell me more about this
"Wireless fun-adaptor" you were speaking of.
No, gently caress Rrussias war of agression and all of this, but they are not gonna be so dumb and start beheading guys just a few weeks after ISIS made it into the headlins with it.

Don't tell me that this is their plan, they are a bunch of drunken mercs who never learned anything better than waging war, they are not a bunch of fanatics who celebrate aesthetics of violence like ISIS

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010

sparatuvs posted:

Welp, DNR says it started beheading Ukrainian soldiers.

:nms: For obvious reasons

http://i.imgur.com/7raij2P.png


Text reads:
"packages to the homeland of punishers that shoot our guys and civilians".

No you see these people are totally rational actors.

Finlander
Feb 21, 2011

sparatuvs posted:

Welp, DNR says it started beheading Ukrainian soldiers.

:nms: For obvious reasons

http://i.imgur.com/7raij2P.png


Text reads:
"packages to the homeland of punishers that shoot our guys and civilians".

Before this whole "civil war" started, I always thought that Europe would be safe from this kind of terrorism. Yet here we are, seeing the exact sort of tactics that would be employed by Al-Qaeda or ISIS being used against European soldiers and civilians, on Russian money. Russia is literally using terrorists just like the ones in Middle East as weapons. There is absolutely nothing that can justify that, especially some vague poo poo about "the west interfering with Ukraine," ESPECIALLY since there's absolutely no proof of such, at least to the level Russia has been meddling with Ukraine's affairs.

Dolash
Oct 23, 2008

aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,


I'm going to be skeptical of this until it gets some serious confirmation elsewhere, that's just too outrageous to be easily believed. It sounds like someone just making a spin off of the ISIS beheadings that caught so many headlines. Although I suppose I can't rule out that some separatist fighter somewhere thought the same thing and actually did it, it's just hard to imagine that being policy.

The fate of Ukrainian military prisoners captured by Russia and the separatists is a pretty sensitive issue, I imagine. Is there any word how many Ukrainians have been captured and in what state they're being kept? I remember seeing pictures of a humiliating parade of POWs through Donetsk recently which seemed fairly sizeable, and a number of troops were supposedly lost when Ukraine fell back from Donetsk and Luhansk.

Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012


Hmmm, what did I say about Putin and his group of murderers again? ... Ah yes, kill them all.


This might not be true, but considering how Putin's murderers have treated captives and civilians in the past, it is not unlikely.

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang
Also, given that they are known to have disembowelled political protesters, and that there are Chechen and Serbian veterans there, I would say that it is far from hard to believe.

Niedar
Apr 21, 2010
Yeah I would be extremely skeptical of the picture period. I have seen two claims, that the rebels chopped those heads off and the other was that it was the Ukrainians and the rebels received them. I don't personally believe either claim right now without further proof.

Nonsense
Jan 26, 2007

The photo may not even be recent, that's always a good thing to check for validity, but it would be maddening if separatists are going for total war here.

They shouldn't be feeling so comfortable to be able to do that, but here we all are.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
Newsweek cover story on Russian soldiers in Ukraine:
http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-truth-behind-putins-secret-war-269227.html

doesn't really live up to its loud headline, but does have some interesting info...

OwlBot 2000
Jun 1, 2009
The victims don't look Ukrainians at all. They look to be Arabs.

Majorian
Jul 1, 2009

Vladimir Putin posted:

I'm sorry but I find I hard I believe this is all because Russia wanted to be best friends with the west and we rejected them. What is this some sort of remake of Mean Girls?

I don't think anybody's arguing that. I know what I and others have argued is that the US and its allies came off as more threatening to Russia than they realized then or for that matter realize now.

A Fancy 400 lbs
Jul 24, 2008
And Russia can suck a dick if being told it can't be an expansionist, imperialistic state makes it feel threatened. Russia being an expansionist, imperialistic state makes MANY more countries feel threatened and Russia has proven that those countries are 100% right to feel threatened.

Horns of Hattin
Dec 21, 2011
Despite the danger of turning into Donkey McDonkey, I simply can't leave well enough alone. Here's another opinion piece with the same BBC-Bellingcat connection. This time I'll only translate the beginning, which has the relevant part.

http://izvestia.ru/news/576513

quote:

Neither plane, nor missile
Journalist Maxim Kononenko - about why the first report on the Boeing crash investigation omits one item

On the morning of September 9th on the site of the English media holding BBC appeared a sensational piece of news. In it, it says that three witnesses independently told British reporters that they observed a missile launching from the Buk at the very moment when it was to strike the Boeing Malaysia Airlines (the time is given to an accuracy of a minute).

Controlling this equipment were people with "pure Russian accents."

"They say the letter 'g' not like us", - said the witnesses.

A day before this publication, Bellingcat published an investigation on the path of this Buk with a multitude of photos, in which vehicle numbers were painted over, as well as a picture of a truck with numbers indicating it belongs to the Moscow Military District (which doesn't exist since September 1st, 2010) . This study even named the Russian sergeant, who allegedly launched the missile, as well as a photograph of him giving the military oath.

In general, given the fact that these amazing sensations are appearing three months after the crash, but right on the eve of the first report about the investigation into the disaster being published, it was clear that the report will not contain anything of the sort.

That's exactly what happened.

[The article then goes on to talk how the official report omits either a Su-25 or a Buk missile signature in the radar data that it claims should be present]

The official Russian media position thus boils down to a main point and a fallback position:
  • The official report does not assign blame to any party, therefore anyone blaming Russia now are untrustworthy non-professionals jumping the gun and making up evidence to pin on Russia.
  • The official report is produced by the Netherlands, which is one of the parties involved, and therefore cannot be trusted to be objective either.

However, that doesn't cover public opinion, which has by now devoured all types of conspiracy theories. While I was expecting a single opposing narrative to emerge, I was surprised that the following three were about equally popular:
  • The Boeing was downed by a Ukrainian Su-25.
  • The Boeing was downed by a Ukrainian Buk.
  • The incident was a joint US/NATO-Ukrainian false flag operation.

Nevermind that each of these theories is incompatible with the other two, requires different actors and sequence of events. In the mind of the conspiracy theorist, that doesn't matter, as long as it puts doubt in the "official story". I've previously talked about this, but would like to clarify that this is not something unique to Russia or this story, but is common with any conspiracy theory.

:tinfoil: :tinfoil: :tinfoil:

Yet what if... what if you were to mash every single MH17 conspiracy into one? Not just those three, but several more I wasn't even aware of before today? What would it look like? Who could tackle such a momentous task? Could it even be done? I'll leave you to decide...

:frogon:

But the answer is "yes": http://irenecaesar.wordpress.com/2014/07/25/malaysia-airlines-mh17-zio-nazi-cia-mi6-mossad-mivd-terrorist-act-in-ukraine/

:jewish::hf::hitler::hf::911::hf::geert::hf::britain::hf::jihad:

Majorian
Jul 1, 2009

A Fancy 400 lbs posted:

And Russia can suck a dick if being told it can't be an expansionist, imperialistic state makes it feel threatened. Russia being an expansionist, imperialistic state makes MANY more countries feel threatened and Russia has proven that those countries are 100% right to feel threatened.

And that's a perfectly fine attitude for you to take personally, but you should understand that the US government and NATO have to be a little more nuanced in their dealings with the second-biggest nuclear power in the world. If they don't want Cold War II on their hands (and if they're smart, they won't), they're going to have to try to understand their adversary.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

Majorian posted:

And that's a perfectly fine attitude for you to take personally, but you should understand that the US government and NATO have to be a little more nuanced in their dealings with the second-biggest nuclear power in the world. If they don't want Cold War II on their hands (and if they're smart, they won't), they're going to have to try to understand their adversary.
Can you explain how understanding Russia is an expansionist imperialist state would help NATO prevent another Cold War?

Cromulent_Chill
Apr 6, 2009

OwlBot 2000 posted:

The victims don't look Ukrainians at all. They look to be Arabs.

I'm a Polish/Ukrainian descendant. The mustache guy looks kinda like my uncle.

A Fancy 400 lbs
Jul 24, 2008

eigenstate posted:



:tinfoil: :tinfoil: :tinfoil:

Yet what if... what if you were to mash every single MH17 conspiracy into one? Not just those three, but several more I wasn't even aware of before today? What would it look like? Who could tackle such a momentous task? Could it even be done? I'll leave you to decide...

:frogon:

But the answer is "yes": http://irenecaesar.wordpress.com/2014/07/25/malaysia-airlines-mh17-zio-nazi-cia-mi6-mossad-mivd-terrorist-act-in-ukraine/

:jewish::hf::hitler::hf::911::hf::geert::hf::britain::hf::jihad:

Actual quote from that:

quote:

Deceived by Khazars into the fake “Covenant” with Seth, the Negroid God of Death, the Five Eyes have chosen the strategy of global terrorism and global disinformation. But the ultimate goal of the Khazar Zio-Nazi is to destroy all national sovereignties and all national currencies. The US is target number TWO after Russia. And the UK is target number THREE after the US.

Holy loving poo poo they're nutters.

Serjeant Buzfuz
Dec 5, 2009

A Crazy person posted:

Deceived by Khazars into the fake “Covenant” with Seth, the Negroid God of Death, the Five Eyes have chosen the strategy of global terrorism and global disinformation. But the ultimate goal of the Khazar Zio-Nazi is to destroy all national sovereignties and all national currencies. The US is target number TWO after Russia. And the UK is target number THREE after the US.

Someone call EA, this sounds like a great game.

Niedar
Apr 21, 2010

eigenstate posted:

However, that doesn't cover public opinion, which has by now devoured all types of conspiracy theories. While I was expecting a single opposing narrative to emerge, I was surprised that the following three were about equally popular:
  • The Boeing was downed by a Ukrainian Su-25.
  • The Boeing was downed by a Ukrainian Buk.
  • The incident was a joint US/NATO-Ukrainian false flag operation.

Nevermind that each of these theories is incompatible with the other two, requires different actors and sequence of events. In the mind of the conspiracy theorist, that doesn't matter, as long as it puts doubt in the "official story". I've previously talked about this, but would like to clarify that this is not something unique to Russia or this story, but is common with any conspiracy theory.

Yea exactly what is described in this paragraph.

bignose posted:

Have you guys read this? I thought it was quite interesting!
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-putin-revolutionizing-information-warfare/379880/

code:

The point of this new propaganda is not to persuade anyone, but to keep the viewer hooked and distracted—to disrupt Western narratives rather than provide a
counternarrative. It is the perfect genre for conspiracy theories, which are all over Russian TV. When the Kremlin and its affiliated media outlets spat out
outlandish stories about the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine in July—reports that characterized the crash as everything from an assault
by Ukrainian fighter jets following U.S. instructions, to an attempted NATO attack on Putin’s private jet—they were trying not so much to convince viewers of any on
version of events, but rather to leave them confused, paranoid, and passive—living in a Kremlin-controlled virtual reality that can no longer be mediated or debated
by any appeal to ‘truth.’

...

Ultimately, many people in Russia and around the world understand that Russian political parties are hollow and Russian news outlets are churning out fantasies. But
insisting on the lie, the Kremlin intimidates others by showing that it is in control of defining ‘reality.’ This is why it’s so important for Moscow to do away with
truth. If nothing is true, then anything is possible. We are left with the sense that we don’t know what Putin will do next—that he’s unpredictable and thus
dangerous. We’re rendered stunned, spun, and flummoxed by the Kremlin’s weaponization of absurdity and unreality.

Niedar fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Sep 10, 2014

Cuntpunch
Oct 3, 2003

A monkey in a long line of kings

A Fancy 400 lbs posted:

But the ultimate goal of the Khazar Zio-Nazi is to destroy all national sovereignties and all national currencies.

So...bitcoiners.

Kristov
Jul 5, 2005

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Can you explain how understanding Russia is an expansionist imperialist state would help NATO prevent another Cold War?

Putin started this poo poo because his approval ratings were dropping off and he feared unrest from his people. He also couldn't afford to look weak by losing the black sea port. So he started a war and whipped up his population into a blood frenzy to kill 2 birds with one stone.

Im guessing now he doesn't know what to do with his enraged population, because once their head clears his approval rating is going to probably drop again. So he's furiously poking NATO, hoping they'll respond with more red meat he can throw to his right-wing psychos (not interchangeable with the russian population as a whole, mind you). This crap is being used by putin as cover to consolidate power and ensure his continued reign.

The counter? poo poo, I don't know. Maybe more blue jeans and rock 'n roll? Only this time, flood the country with north face jackets, yoga pants, and call Sweedish House Mafia out of retirement.

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?

Killin_Like_Bronson posted:

I'm a Polish/Ukrainian descendant.

That must've been fun!

But, yes, what OwlBot is saying is nonsense.

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Berke Negri
Feb 15, 2012

Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao


Zio-Nazis is the name of my Jewish pop-punk band.

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