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I think the MCU term for mutants is "Meta-humans" which is more commonly used in DC properties. It popped up in Agents of SHIELD. That Marvel are legally prohibited from using a term that they created and have to snatch one from DC instead is pretty funny.
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Sep 14, 2014 10:03
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e X posted:It does provide the rather amusing image of lawyers discussing superhero lore in-depth. Imagine the thing went to court. I pity the judge who had to decide the case between Gaiman and Mcfarelane. Yeah, that one always cracks me up, where some poor judge is boning up on loving Angela and whatever else.
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Sep 14, 2014 16:43
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:boning up on loving Angela Interesting choice of words.
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Sep 14, 2014 17:04
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The way I remember it, Whedon announced Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were going to be in Avengers 2, and a short time later (days or a week-ish) Fox/Bryan Singer announced the same thing. I just remember it looking like kind of a cheap shot on fox's part but I'm glad they did it because his whole part in the movie was fantastic.
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Sep 14, 2014 20:05
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Kingtheninja posted:The way I remember it, Whedon announced Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were going to be in Avengers 2, and a short time later (days or a week-ish) Fox/Bryan Singer announced the same thing. I just remember it looking like kind of a cheap shot on fox's part but I'm glad they did it because his whole part in the movie was fantastic. It's also been said in interviews that the Quiksilver part was originally written as young Juggernaut and the guy who played young Stryker was originally cast for that role
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Sep 14, 2014 20:14
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That would make sense, instead of the weird age gap between stryker actors. Wolverine Origin takes place like nine or ten years after DoFP and there's like a 20 year difference in the actors.
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Sep 14, 2014 20:21
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This will always be my favorite super hero court case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toy_Biz_v._United_States Some accountant working for Marvel decided to try and save on import taxes from their factory in China by claiming that toys based on X-Men characters aren't dolls because they don't depict human beings. I love the thought of some federal judge poring over Stan Lee's insaneo bullshit 60s science-fiction dialogue explaining what a mutant is and then having to interpret that with human-rights law.
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Sep 14, 2014 21:11
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Dacap posted:It's also been said in interviews that the Quiksilver part was originally written as young Juggernaut and the guy who played young Stryker was originally cast for that role Okay, they would have obviously made "unstopability" his mutant power, but I wonder if they would have kept the fact that he is Charles' step brother and, in the movies, subsequently also should know Mystique.
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Sep 14, 2014 21:42
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e X posted:Okay, they would have obviously made "unstopability" his mutant power, but I wonder if they would have kept the fact that he is Charles' step brother and, in the movies, subsequently also should know Mystique. Well they barely acknowledged that Quiksilver is Magneto's son so I doubt they would have gone more than a hint towards it.
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Sep 14, 2014 22:13
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I think having an artificial reason for keeping the X-Men out of the marvel movie universes is a blessing in disguise. If both franchises had the option to crossover I don't know if they'd have the willpower to not do so too soon, and xmens tone just does not fit with the MMU's at all right now.
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Sep 15, 2014 00:31
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Kingtheninja posted:That would make sense, instead of the weird age gap between stryker actors. Wolverine Origin takes place like nine or ten years after DoFP and there's like a 20 year difference in the actors.
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Sep 15, 2014 00:57
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I think having an artificial reason for keeping the X-Men out of the marvel movie universes is a blessing in disguise. If both franchises had the option to crossover I don't know if they'd have the willpower to not do so too soon, and xmens tone just does not fit with the MMU's at all right now. I agree entirely. The first X-Men film came out in 2000, close to the start (if not the start) of this weird thirty-year comic movie blitz we're in the middle of,* and the tone it set, not to mention the aesthetics, haven't aged particularly well. The First Class trilogy goes a long way toward changing that but it's still hugely incompatible with the MCU style, which manages to be self-aware without (generally) coming off as cheeky. *The Marvel Cinematic Universe is planned out to 2028, I heard, which kinda blows my loving mind
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Sep 15, 2014 00:59
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I kind of find it odd that Marvel movies like Captain America 2 and Iron Man 1 have some pretty good commentary to say about the world, while the X-men franchise which is ripe for that kind of thing is pretty lukewarm about it. Maybe it is because they keep choosing to focus on Wolverine, I don't know.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:57
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The first X-Men had some passing comparisons between mutation and homosexuality (like mutants coming out to their parents) but they never really resonated because those comparisons never built up to any kind of cohesive theme. Instead we got the same thing that happens to everything else.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:03
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blackguy32 posted:I kind of find it odd that Marvel movies like Captain America 2 and Iron Man 1 have some pretty good commentary to say about the world, while the X-men franchise which is ripe for that kind of thing is pretty lukewarm about it. This one had Richard Nixon as a character with lines and everything. The one previous climaxes with mutants ending the Cuban Missile Crisis. The problem is more that they have no drat idea what they're doing.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:03
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I think having an artificial reason for keeping the X-Men out of the marvel movie universes is a blessing in disguise. If both franchises had the option to crossover I don't know if they'd have the willpower to not do so too soon, and xmens tone just does not fit with the MMU's at all right now. i've always said that as long as the other heroes exist in the same universe as the X-Men, the other heroes are going to get undercut. Basically in X-Men comics you have decades of the governments (of the United States, UK, and Canada) doing a ton of things that are really not okay, like kidnapping and experimenting on mutants en masse and even running a concentration camp and wiping out whole towns in their experiments (admittedly those last two in a very bad comic no one should read but you get my larger point). If you are an X-Men reader then Captain America, Tony Stark and Reed Richards all kinda look like toolbags for letting this go on, on ~American soil~ no less. It's not that I like X-Men better than Avengers, I'm just not a fan of the two worlds bleeding into each other that much (Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver get a grandfather clause tho since they joined as far back as the 60s when Magneto and the X-Men were just some B-List characters and the Mutant Problem was not yet a thing.) Notice how in a lot of the big X-Men/Avengers crossovers of the 80s/90s inevitably one of the two teams will be made to look like a bunch of unreasonable assholes with a broken worldview depending on the writer's orientation. That's basically unavoidable because either the Avengers are right and Mutant Massacres are not a thing (because if they were the Avengers would become another mutant book) or the X-Men are right and the Avengers are loving around with Fing Fang Foom when there's literal death camps in the USA Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Sep 19, 2014 |
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Sep 19, 2014 21:31
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Harime Nui posted:It's not that I like X-Men better than Avengers, I'm just not a fan of the two worlds bleeding into each other that much This is pretty much how I feel. X-Men is so tonally and narratively different from all the MCU poo poo...it really would be jarring. Spider-Man and Fantastic 4 would all fit in pretty well with the MCU, but I sincerely hope Marvel never gets their hands on the movie rights to X-Men just to avoid the whole thing. Not to mention that X-Men alone has more popular characters than the entirety of the MCU at this point. That would be one immense can of worms to open.
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Sep 20, 2014 01:23
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or to boil down what I said more simply, the Avengers work within the law and the X-Men are---no matter how many deals they work out with local authorities or how many old friends Xavier has in the FBI---outlaws. And either the X-Men are right to be outlaws or they're not, and anytime they interact with the bigger Marvel U the writer has to make a call on that.
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Sep 20, 2014 01:55
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It's good that the movies have separated the X-Men universe from the other Marvel properties. It never made sense to me that humanity should be loathing mutants yet adoring the likes of the Fantastic Four or Spider-Man. The distinction between a mutant and a non-mutant superhuman is mostly technical; to all normal people they should be freaks of nature.quote:(Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver get a grandfather clause tho since they joined as far back as the 60s when Magneto and the X-Men were just some B-List characters and the Mutant Problem was not yet a thing.) In the earlier X-Men books, there wasn't much in the way of anti-mutant bigotry either. Magneto was a mutant supremacist for no reason. If Marvel ever decides to do an Infinite Crisis style reboot, they should split the X-Men off into a separate universe. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 07:12
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Orrrrr they could just have Captain America beat the names of the people behind Weapon X out of Nick Fury, help expose what the government was doing to mutants to the public, have the Avengers shame the politicians into stopping their speciest(?) policies and then shift the X-books to being about how the X-Corporation helps mutants around the world! well I can dream can't I?
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Sep 20, 2014 08:16
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Came to the thread looking for movie discussion... Just caught this today. Was fairly impressed, just as I was with First Class. Only thing I was is more mutants had more screentime (Gandalf-Magneto, Havok, Quicksilver), but there were so many, I"d rather it be tightly edited than a bloated mess, so whatever. Since I have little knowledge of the universe outside the movies, it doesn't bug me a whole lot when a major player (like Old Magneto) gets a bit shafted in favor of others (like still very cool Young Magneto). Thought the scene at the peace signing was done really well.
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Sep 20, 2014 11:47
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Harime Nui posted:Orrrrr they could just have Captain America beat the names of the people behind Weapon X out of Nick Fury, help expose what the government was doing to mutants to the public, have the Avengers shame the politicians into stopping their speciest(?) policies and then shift the X-books to being about how the X-Corporation helps mutants around the world! The X-Men as a friendly transnational supergroup generally accepted by the public and government is the worst idea ever actually.
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Sep 20, 2014 11:47
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Vitamin P posted:The X-Men as a friendly transnational supergroup generally accepted by the public and government is the worst idea ever actually. Yeah, I don't read/watch a lot of X-Men, bit it seems like the entire universe and its stories hinge on the context of the world at large. The relation between the hopeful reformist and the cynical revolutionary, one of the central sources of conflict and tension in X-Men stories, evaporates the moment you create a world that puts one of the worldviews in a clearly dominant position. Even on DoFP it seems to show in how little airtime the state of the future world gets. The tension between Magneto and Xavier isn't there, for better or worse they're beyond reform and now guerilla warfare is all that's left. The real story lives in the past, where that conflict still exists.
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Sep 20, 2014 13:48
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Something about X-Men that always bugged me: "Hello, I am Magneto. Would you like to join our Brotherhood?" "Hello, I am Professor X. Would you like to join my X-Men?"
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Sep 20, 2014 14:02
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Maluco Marinero posted:Yeah, I don't read/watch a lot of X-Men, bit it seems like the entire universe and its stories hinge on the context of the world at large. Honestly, not at all. The thing about the X-men is that they arguably have way more supernatural and space adventure than actuality dealing with the whole "mutants as minorities" metaphor. That only really came to the forefront post the release of the movies. But a lot of their most famous stories are them either traveling through space or fighting of demonic invasion.
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Sep 20, 2014 14:13
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sulphix posted:Thought the scene at the peace signing was done really well.
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Sep 20, 2014 14:36
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Something about X-Men that always bugged me: Imagine how the other three members feel about being called the Fantastic Four
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Sep 20, 2014 16:30
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Jack Gladney posted:Imagine how the other three members feel about being called the Fantastic Four The Invisible Four The Human Four The Four Things I think they chose well.
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Sep 20, 2014 16:40
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Jack Gladney posted:Imagine how the other three members feel about being called the Fantastic Four https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSMg_GWiBt0
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Sep 20, 2014 17:26
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Maluco Marinero posted:Yeah, I don't read/watch a lot of X-Men, bit it seems like the entire universe and its stories hinge on the context of the world at large. I've read and watched a lot of X-Men and it would be pretty sad and boring if they stuck to the "world that fears and hates them" status quo forever. We've already had something like 20 years of the X-Men comics trying to constantly ride this whole "dark future is coming, war between man and mutant is inevitable" schtick. As an X-Men fan I would be totally okay with an X-Men adaption without Magneto, the Brotherhood, or The Sentinels because I know there's a ton more you can do with the concept. How mutants get along in third-world countries, mutant communities springing up in cities, mutant detectives, the x-men beginning to work with law enforcement----these are all ideas Marvel started approaching thirteen years ago and then rapidly backed away from, and it's a shame. e: really I just wish someday they'd adapt X-Men vs Dracula! e: He's all "Storm you are so fierce and strong willed, plz b my vampire queen!" she's all "lol no" and he's all "that's just what a fierce, strong willed woman would say  "
Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 19:12
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e X posted:Honestly, not at all. The thing about the X-men is that they arguably have way more supernatural and space adventure than actuality dealing with the whole "mutants as minorities" metaphor. That only really came to the forefront post the release of the movies. But a lot of their most famous stories are them either traveling through space or fighting of demonic invasion. Fighting off demonic invasion? I'm a nerd and honestly don't even know what you're referencing there. And travelling through space doesn't really fit either. The Shi'ar and the X-Men have a relationship for sure, but even then the most famous story was the Shi'ar coming to Earth out of the blue to murder Jean. The X-Men as minority metaphors has been with them since the beginning, it was explicit, and it's actively developed over time too. When the next wave of X-Men were first introduced  it wasn't a coincidence that they were far more diverse than the lily-white original team. A Russian and a German hero was a gently caress-off to post-war nationalism, a woman of colour as goddess and team leader would be progressive today, even Wolverine wasn't the Ubermensch he is now; he was short and old and angry. Nightcrawler seems demonic, but how he looks has nothing to do with his worth as a person. Granted the series has somewhat moved away from that idea recently, although standouts like Dust being possibly the first mainstream hero to wear a niqab still happen, but the most famous recent stories are still consequences of the initial mutants-as-minority. No More Mutants, isolationist Utopia, Avengers vs X-Men, the slightly bitter withdrawal from Civil War, a 'mutant' place in the Illuminati, Weapon X, X-Factor in Mutant Town, this amazing thing  I honestly don't get how you can think X-Men and the supernatural even compares to X-Men and social metaphor.
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Sep 20, 2014 22:05
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One of the X-Men's biggest enemies is a 10,000 year old witch who fought Conan and took over the Hellfire club on a drunk weekend. Xavier's brother is powered by a magic stone housing an evil god. Colossus's little sister ruled over an entire dimension of demons before returning to earth as a kid due to Narnia shennanigans. None of this stuff will ever make it into an adaption because they'll want the same old "core concept" of Magneto vs The X-Men round thirty. I'm gay. e: Did you know Xavier's mansion is literally built on a hellmouth to Limbo and every so often a demon will just pop up and attack it? Wolverine thinks it's good practice. e: e X has a point in that, the 90s were by and large the decade of Apocalypse. Sure you had the legacy virus (which traced back through Stryfe to Apocalypse), and Operation Zero Tolerance but pretty much outside peripheral titles like X-Factor you could say X-Men had disappeared up its own butt in time travel and exploring the deep mysteries of Cable over being about mutants' place in the world. The movies did cause the comics to try and clean house a little: they tried to 'resolve' Apocalypse with a final battle and then start over with new writers on the main books (Joe Kelly and Grant Morrison) and a refreshed focus on the mutants vs humans, Xavier's dream vs Magneto's stuff (and Grant bless him, tried to put a period on the whole thing by pointing out how relentlessly dull and tiresome Magneto had become by then). The 70s-80s were much wilder. The X-Men were having crazy pulp adventures fighting dragons and ninjas, in space or other dimensions. Magneto was teaching at the school and the Brotherhood (founded by Mystique, not Mags) had sold out to the government. Stuff was crazy! Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 22:53
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Vitamin P posted:
Because it is true. All this things you just mentioned comes for the post 2000 X-men, after the movie came out, when they decided to make this metaphor much more prevalent in the stories. Hell, that Cyclops image is post A vs. X,, so within the last two yeras. But the X-men are a comic that has been running sicne the 60, and the truth is just that there are more stories with demons, aliens, time travel and other superhero shenanigans than there are the once that deal with mutant prejudice. Take for example the Dark Phoenix saga. The Shiar did not just randomly show up on earth, they were already established as a large galactic empire with whom the X-Men had multiple adventures and they originated in Uncanny X-Men. Hell, Xavier and Lilandra dated for a long time. But the entire story is about Jean being replaced by a cosmic force, than manipulated by some Illuminati stand-ins and cumulates in the X-men having to fight a trial by combat on the moon against the Imperial Guard, because the Shiar put Jean Grey on trial for genocide. Or the Brood saga, where they get infected by alien embryos and have to fight their their dark instincts while saving the souls of giant sentient space whales from evil aliens stand ins. Also in space by the way. Or anything involving Corsair. The X-Men have tons of space adventures. And for demons, just look at Illiyana and anything involving Limbo. Or Azael. Or when they fight Dracula. And seriously, everything about Excalibur. The point is that the majority of famous X-men stories do not deal with anti mutant prejudice, because for the longest time, it was simply not something the books focused on. It came up from time to time, but never in the context of a bigger issue, but simply to justify the latest plot hook. Hell, even the Sentinels where originally very different and simply your standard robot apocalypse scenario. It has only become prevalent in recent years, where it is not just something the X-men occasionally run into, but basically the basis for the entire franchise. What I am saying is just that that has not always been the case and the reason that X-Men where once Marvel's flagship title does not come from how it was a metaphor for minorities, but from being a badshit crazy superhero soap opera. While the metaphor is certainly interesting, it can also be rather suffocating, because it basically doesn't allow for any other storyline. And when you say they moved away from it, it actually just them returning to something the comic was for a long time (Assuming you talk about Wolverine and the X-men). The metaphor also doesn't really work all that well when you actually start to think about it, but that is another matter entirely. e X fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Sep 21, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 23:52
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Vitamin P posted:this amazing thing But seriously what is it?
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Sep 20, 2014 23:56
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Cyclops has recently become a mutant revolutionary extremist, more or less. he is also a fugitive. I think that comes from an issue where he finds out that Shield is building sentinels in secret, so he destroys them and throws that pose at the security cameras.
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Sep 21, 2014 00:02
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These days Cyclops buys more into Magneto's idea of human-mutant relations than Xavier's. Basically for a stretch of maybe seven years (real time) almost all mutants around the world lost their powers. Cyclops rounded up the remnants in a fortified Alcatraz Island, which he renamed utopia. Wolverine said this was bullshit and reopened Xavier's school back in New York (he renamed it the Jean Grey school as a gently caress-you to Scott). Then Cyclops got possessed by the Pheonix, went crazy, fought the Avengers, killed Chuck, and now he's a wanted terrorist. And the X is the thing his mutant gang does. Hth!
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Sep 21, 2014 00:07
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Pierson posted:Cyclops being hardcore straight-edge the whole time would explain the massive stick up his rear end. The last 10 years or so Cyclops went from "boring straight guy no one likes with eye lasers" to "essentially Batman, but with eye lasers". Still a dick, but now a dick who is willing to do anything and everything to ensure the survival of his people and can plan or think 3 steps ahead of everyone else. He's so extreme now that even Magneto was like "Scott you've gone too far" and ducked out, while Scott just carried on with his crusade. Like someone else said, the backwards momentum of Marvel going from telling stories about mutants making up like 1/3 - 1/4 of the global population (with the implication that within ~100 years mutants would breed out all the baseline humans), with all the ensuing things about integration, acceptance, divisiveness within the mutant community, etc to telling re-hashed stories about mutants being hated, feared, and exploited has been kind of lame, but Cyclops and a few other characters have gotten some interesting character development out of it. Which I hope someday makes it into the movies, because Cyke can be  to watch in action, and I always felt bad for James Marsden having to play second fiddle (at best) in the movies.
Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Sep 21, 2014 |
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Sep 21, 2014 00:21
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Harime Nui posted:One of the X-Men's biggest enemies is a 10,000 year old witch who fought Conan and took over the Hellfire club on a drunk weekend. Xavier's brother is powered by a magic stone housing an evil god. Colossus's little sister ruled over an entire dimension of demons before returning to earth as a kid due to Narnia shennanigans. None of this stuff will ever make it into an adaption because they'll want the same old "core concept" of Magneto vs The X-Men round thirty. I'm gay. I have no idea who you mean by 10,000 year old witch. I'm not being facetious and am willing to look a fool, but honestly have no idea who this biggest enemy is. The biggest enemies of the X-Men, off the top of my head, are the Sentinals/Stryker et al (expressions of government oppression), the Hellfire Club (expression of capitalism) and the Avengers (expressions of government/socially acceptable vigilantism). Magneto, Emma Frost, Krakoa, the Shi'ar, all these classic villains are no longer just enemies to the X-Men, they are partially rehabilitated (because the X-Men are fundamentally inclusive and they were villains because of ideological reasons, strongly implying there's a discussion). Juggernaut is absolutely mental I'll grant you but is hardly a defining part of the mythos in the way that say, Toad is. Colossus' sister, and use her name, Magik, is defined by being, wait for it, magic. It's her incredibly unique thing and objectively can't be extrapolated. e X posted:Because it is true. All this things you just mentioned comes for the post 2000 X-men, . Did you just not read that bit I said about the old X-Men being actively progressive? I posted an iconic comic cover and everything. I'm not denying the Brood and other space adventures. My point is the Avengers just went into space in a bigger space opera than anything the X-Men have ever done, but presumably you wouldn't consider interstellar travel a defining concept of the Avengers? And I personally love the Starjammers, but they are irrelevant. Cyclops has a ridiculous space pirate dad but it's almost comical how little it informs his character, regardless of who writes him. I will grant you that Exalibur is more supernatural than most mutant stories, to the point that it's barely an X-Men story.
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Sep 21, 2014 00:26
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e X posted:The point is that the majority of famous X-men stories do not deal with anti mutant prejudice, because for the longest time, it was simply not something the books focused on. It came up from time to time, but never in the context of a bigger issue, but simply to justify the latest plot hook. Hell, even the Sentinels where originally very different and simply your standard robot apocalypse scenario. This is absolutely true, the rise of Thatcherism/Reagan coincided with the X-Men sinking into empty Cable sludge. The changing of the X-Men to boring bollocks was without doubt a symptom of a society that attacked the concept of radicalism.
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Sep 21, 2014 00:32
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If it wasn't in the Saturday morning cartoons when the current generation of screenwriters were kids, it's not important enough to be in the movies.
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Sep 21, 2014 00:35
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