|
ritorix posted:I could also see it being good if you somehow worked resistance into the situation, like by casting Blade Ward. That would double the lifespan of your Armor. If you could manage heavy armor mastery on top somehow (start as a Warlock 12/Totem Barbarian of the Bear 3/Whatever 5. Get that damage resist to almost everything while raging and reckless attack makes sure you hit AND helps make sure Armor of Agathys does its job. Dark One's Blessing still gets at least 16 HP. 9th level spells are overrated anyway, right? Jack the Lad posted:Just to emphasise: crits are a trap and statistically add very little to your DPR. More importantly they add damage at random, which means you might well bust out that 6d6 crit on a kobold with 5 HP. In the case I was talking about the the extra crit chance is actually 1.8 damage per swing on average, which is almost as big as the barbarians 20th level ability (if you ignore the increased chance to hit and don't care about reliability  ). That said, in previous editions there have been very nice magic weapon effect riders for crits and feats that activate on crits (great weapon master can currently give you a bonus attack on a crit, which is nice if you aren't using a polearm). I agree that, with only the PHB out, the Champion is definitely lagging, but at level 20 they have ~73% chance of critting during an action surge compared to a Battle Mater's ~34% chance. That could mean something eventually. Maybe.Also, I'd be ecstatic to do 6d12 (definitely going for the greataxe on a crit build given how half orc/barb crit bonuses work)+ whatever damage to a kobold lol. It'd be a perfect opportunity for a battlecry! EDIT: Power Player posted:Using polearms is so lame though. God, I wish this was better balanced. Oh well, first Ability Score increase I'll pick it up and just buy a glaive or whatever. Dude, just use the maul if that's what you like. A maul does about 2.5 damage more per hit on average with Great Weapon fighting style. The extra attack from pole arm master will be like 7 damage, if you hit. As you get more attacks the difference becomes even less significant (and mauls pull out ahead eventually) and it's also less significant if you're putting off your strength progression. Or if you take great weapon master instead, that can give you much more powerful bonus attacks when you kill something (which you're more likely to do with a better damage dice and the 10 bonus damage you can take on low AC targets) or crit. I'd agree that polearm master is probably 'better' overall since reach is nice and so are extra AoO's, but there are plenty of times where a maul would come out ahead, so if that's the flavor you want, I'd say go with it. Dairy Power fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Sep 14, 2014 |
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 16:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 12:53 |
|
|
Power Player posted:Using polearms is so lame though. God, I wish this was better balanced. Oh well, first Ability Score increase I'll pick it up and just buy a glaive or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 16:21
|
|
|
Is there a consistent way to assign a CR to an NPC character made with the player classes and abilities? My thought is that in an even battle between a party of 4 players of a level versus a party of 4 NPCs of the same level, the individual CR of each NPC enemy would have to be level/4, but I'm not sure if the total CR of an encounter is additive with respect to the CR of individual enemies.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 16:29
|
|
|
Dairy Power posted:Also, I'd be ecstatic to do 6d12 (definitely going for the greataxe on a crit build given how half orc/barb crit bonuses work)+ whatever damage to a kobold lol. It'd be a perfect opportunity for a battlecry!
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 16:34
|
|
|
Power Player posted:Thank you. Hmm. I might also just go greataxe since it does work better with the half-orc bonus, but a maul also has lots of flavor. I'd only really worry about the half orc bonus if you really like the flavor or are going full crits (for fun, not optimality, as Jack has established haha), honestly. The maul does a little over a full point of damage more on average per hit and has an overall more favorable probability distribution for the damage when using the great weapon fighting style. Great axes work out to like 2 more damage on a crit on average over a maul. So 2 bonus damage 5% of the time for a lower average and worse distribution the rest of the time lol. Dairy Power fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Sep 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 16:42
|
|
|
Hidden Under a Hat posted:Is there a consistent way to assign a CR to an NPC character made with the player classes and abilities? My thought is that in an even battle between a party of 4 players of a level versus a party of 4 NPCs of the same level, the individual CR of each NPC enemy would have to be level/4, but I'm not sure if the total CR of an encounter is additive with respect to the CR of individual enemies. From the various things, an NPC of class level X has a CR of X-2. We don't have the "official formula" though, because it probably doesn't exist.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 17:20
|
|
|
Froghammer posted:It's a little sad to me that seemingly the best way to play a Warlock is Warlock2/Anything Else18 Welcome to being a fighter in 3.5, shield-brother.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 17:21
|
|
|
Froghammer posted:It's a little sad to me that seemingly the best way to play a Warlock is Warlock2/Anything Else18 Bwuh? I don't get that at all. Putting it simply from level 11, sticking with Warlock puts you a spell level ahead of multiclassing for another caster. You've as much heavy firepower as a "real" caster and you have some good spells in there. Like True Polymorph. You've also got a decent round by round damage output from your Eldritch Blast (and probably its pushes) and so have been ahead on the lowbie damage stakes since level 5. Three cantrips from any list (at level 3) is a nice little bonus especially with Guidance in there (yes, you could take that as a dip). Which means there's no real jumping off point before level 5 and Eldritch Blast becoming the best damage cantrip in the game by a comfortable margin. 4 is also an ability score increase and an Invocation (grab the book for the Familiar (Pact of the Chain? What's that?), swap it out for Agonizing Blast next level). Yeah, levels 6-10 suck a bit, but from level 11 you're on the High Level Spells Gravy Train. You're also the best ritualist in the game when you get your Book back (either L7 or L11) as you can use rituals off anyone's list, you've at will damage that beats out all other spellcasters as well as forced movement, and you can levitate at will. So your levels 6-10 are little better than a fighter's, but unlike the fighter the light at the end of the tunnel isn't just a cruel trick.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 18:31
|
|
|
On the note of polearms and mauls, one of the (many) things that were great in 4e that are of course being abandoned was that almost every weapon group had something great, and if you were a fighter, played different. It was actually almost Basic-esque in that weapons were more then just xdy. Because of both feats and powers, someone with a big hammer had access to more dazes and stuns (and indeed if you made it to epic, hammers were insanely brutal), someone with a polearm was a master of crowd control in sliding dudes everywhere, and heavy blades got HBO which meant suddenly their basic attacks were amazing - which included their OAs. Even light blades got unique stuff with tempest or certain hybrids. The only odd one out that I can think of is the axe, but then you go into weapon with two categories and suddenly the axe makes a comeback with unique weapon enchantments and high damage feats. Hell, there were unique additions for shield users and two handers to make BOTH viable. Good to know we're back to "Just take whatever has the highest dice damage, unless you're using one of these like three specific individual weapons." God knows we wouldn't want weapon choice for the class built entirely around using weapons to be interesting.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 23:00
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:weapons to be interesting. Strongly agree. Out of the 4e ideas they dropped that was definitely one of the most disappointing for me. I think it'd be pretty cool if weapons had innate rider effects on standard attacks. Hammers can daze, swords do bleed damage, axes crit harder, etc. Granted, it'd have to be balanced carefully so it was still worse than spellcasting, but it would be neat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 23:12
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:It was actually almost Basic-esque in that weapons were more then just xdy. Using a flail to constantly slide things around is pretty great (even on an OA!), same with forcing prone if you don't want to slide. Now if only there was a polearm/flail weapon... 
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 23:28
|
|
|
Like just off the top of my head here are the weapon groups that had something interesting going for them as a fighter. Hammers: Hammers are built off Constitution and have a few (one really notable specifically) powers that stun, and can daze people nonstop at higher levels. Maces: There's only like two maces in the game, but you can dole out huge attack penalties with them if set up. Light Blades: Built for tempests who dual wield, light blades are probably one of the most offensive fighter weapons, they have probably the most offensive oriented paragon path, and this goes especially if you hybrid. Heavy Blades: Heavy Blades are generic "always good but who cares" weapons right until you get Heavy Blade Opportunity, which dramatically alters your basic attacks - and as a fighter, basic attacks are how you defend, so heavy blades end up changing your most basic function quite a bit. Flails: Flails give almost all your attacks a prone and a slide as you snag their legs and drag them around Polearm: You can easily stack a few things so your polearm attacks slide dudes around everywhere, making you king of the battlefield Spear: Lots of CHARGE, with a few great multi-attacks Shield: Slam dudes in the face, sending them flying away on their asses. Connected mostly to hammers, heavy blades, and flails. Two-handed Weapon: More offensive then shields, and connected to the aforementioned polearms, spears, and some heavy blades. Two Weapons: Almost exclusively light blade (though you can go heavy blade if you grab the drow knives), what you lose in pure offense or defense, you make up for in being a whirlwind of attacks on everything around you. EMPTY HAND: YEAH, THIS IS ALSO AN OPTION! Grab dudes and chokeslam them, run them into walls, throw them into the ground and pummel them mercilessly! Brawler may not be the best fighter but it's loving rad! Like, weapon choice matters a lot in 4e, it practically defines who you are as a fighter and what you do. Someone who specializes in polearms is going to play very differently from someone who specializes in light blades. VERY differently. You don't see that in 5e. And you won't see it in 5e. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Sep 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 00:05
|
|
|
But modules Cirno. Modules.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 00:16
|
|
|
To be fair*, a lot of that wasn't in 4e originally. A fair amount of the support was in the PHB from the start, especially for hammers and shields, but stuff like grappling didn't show up for a few sourcebooks. * Don't ever be fair.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 00:18
|
|
|
Yeah, variation in weapon style is one of the things I most regret losing. You don't even have to do it the way 4E did it -- BECMI's weapon mastery tables are right there for another way to give weapons different feels (and make weapon-wielding classes more interesting).
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 00:24
|
|
|
Unfortunately HBO only affected opportunity attacks, not charging or defender punishments. 4e Fighters can already stop enemies cold or grab them with Grappling Strike on OAs so  But that's why you leave the heavy blades for Paladins and Swordmages and use a pair of Spiked Shields instead.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 00:27
|
|
|
Really Pants posted:Unfortunately HBO only affected opportunity attacks, not charging or defender punishments. 4e Fighters can already stop enemies cold or grab them with Grappling Strike on OAs so Yeah, but if you're going sword and board (which was my favorite) then your mark punishment already pushes, so it's basically Tide of Iron anyways!  ~*~ Also if you want a real sign of what to expect from 5e, consider this. In 4e, the portable hole, unlike previous editions, is an actual portal hole. Like, ACME style. You place it on a service and it's now a literal hole you can crawl through to the other side, assuming the wall isn't too thick. When Mike Mearls took the reins he pushed Mordenkainen's Mystical Emporium. In which you find the AD&D style portable hole - you know, the one that that isn't a hole at all. What did he name it? "TRUE Portable Hole."
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 00:42
|
|
|
Dairy Power posted:I'd only really worry about the half orc bonus if you really like the flavor or are going full crits (for fun, not optimality, as Jack has established haha), honestly. The maul does a little over a full point of damage more on average per hit and has an overall more favorable probability distribution for the damage when using the great weapon fighting style. Great axes work out to like 2 more damage on a crit on average over a maul. So 2 bonus damage 5% of the time for a lower average and worse distribution the rest of the time lol. How does the greataxe do any more damage on a crit? the average damage of a greataxe, while using great weapon fighting style is 7.3, the average of a 2d6 weapon is 8.3 and the crit rules just let you roll all damage dice again. Also these are the numbers I had for the following builds(this is for a barb 9, champion 3, assuming it's always raging/power attacking).  So the difference isn't that big, polearm gets the most advantage from higher hit chance and more innate damage but would always be a feat/ability score increase behind(assuming the same race choice). There is the opportunity attack granted by polearm master to consider, the other build could take sentinel for a similar benefit. EDIT: actually I hosed up the polearm master bonus attack damage a little, as I was using the non advantage crit rate, so it's about 0.5 more DPR than listed. Yakse fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Sep 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 01:29
|
|
|
I do wish there was more to set the weapons apart as well. Hope they add some stuff in the DMG or something like it. If not well house ruling can fix it, but I hope there is actual stuff for it later on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 02:01
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:Yeah, but if you're going sword and board (which was my favorite) then your mark punishment already pushes, so it's basically Tide of Iron anyways! That comes from the board and not the sword, though, so Spiked Shields are still just as good for it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 02:11
|
|
|
Do rules still exist in the PHB for buying your starting equipment, or is it all done by class/background packages? Because the GP cost is one of the big differentiating factors for weapons and armor, at least at char-gen.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 02:13
|
|
|
You have the choice of either taking a selection of gear given by class and background or you just get gold determined by class.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 02:15
|
|
|
Yakse posted:How does the greataxe do any more damage on a crit? the average damage of a greataxe, while using great weapon fighting style is 7.3, the average of a 2d6 weapon is 8.3 and the crit rules just let you roll all damage dice again. The factors in question are the Half Orc's Savage Attack and Barbarian's Brutal Critical: Savage Attacks. When you score a critical hit with a melee weapon attack, you can roll one of the weapon’s damage dice one additional time and add it to the extra damage o f the critical hit. B r u t a l C r i t i c a l Beginning at 9th level, you can roll one additional weapon damage die when determining the extra damage for a critical hit with a melee attack. This increases to two additional dice at 13th level and three additional dice at 17th level. They each only add a single weapon damage die, so with a greataxe you're adding d12s (7.3 damage) vs d6s (4.2ish) with a greatsword/maul.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 04:44
|
|
|
Dairy Power posted:The factors in question are the Half Orc's Savage Attack and Barbarian's Brutal Critical: Ah, didn't notice the distinction of one of the damage dice.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 05:16
|
|
|
Yeah, there's no [W] in 5e, but instead there's ~*natural language*~
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 06:03
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:You don't see that in 5e. And you won't see it in 5e. I'm actually okay with this. I'm all for interesting choices, but 4ed's builds were so focused around hyper-specialization. Specializing in a certain type of weapon (or implement, or damage type) meant that the opportunity cost of using anything else was too high to ever be worth it. The 4ed fighter was so awesome in so many ways, but being a "master of all weapons" wasn't one of them. This also came with the expectation that the DM would drop loot that you were specialized to use, meaning you weren't the only one at the table whose choices were affected.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 06:11
|
|
|
After revising my numbers and fixing up the critical damage thing(and another mistake I made when adding the critical damage together), the numbers for polearm mastery are within about 1% of the old numbers and the numbers for either 2d6 or 1d12 are all about 15% lower. So drop all the numbers in the pic I posted for non-polearm by about 10 DPR. The only time anything but polearms come ahead for the 9 barb/3 fighter are when he is frenzied, and it's only by about 5-7 DPR.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 06:16
|
|
|
Elmo Oxygen posted:The 4ed fighter was so awesome in so many ways, but being a "master of all weapons" wasn't one of them.  There is in fact a Fighter (called Weaponmaster I think) whose schtick is to have a whole bunch of weapons to lug around and hit people with, and powers that supported it. They even have their own expertise feat Master At Arms which, in addition to the expertise feat bonus, lets you stow and draw a weapon as the same minor action. I believe you can combine this with a Ki Focus (through multiclassing) to have the enhancement bonus apply to everything, so while you'd be missing out on magic weapon properties you can still have the enhancement bonus. But don't quote me on this, the ki focus rules are loving wonky.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 06:18
|
|
|
Elmo Oxygen posted:I'm actually okay with this. I'm all for interesting choices, but 4ed's builds were so focused around hyper-specialization. Specializing in a certain type of weapon (or implement, or damage type) meant that the opportunity cost of using anything else was too high to ever be worth it. The 4ed fighter was so awesome in so many ways, but being a "master of all weapons" wasn't one of them. Serious question, does Next actually do anything to encourage you to play a Fighter who's constantly shuffling and juggling weapons, carefully planning their loadout based on rumors or discarding and grabbing weapons in the midst of combat in order to pull of sick combos, or is it like it was in 3E where you might have proficiency in a bunch of stuff but it didn't really matter because you basically just picked whatever hit hardest and stuck with that? Because I'm gonna be honest, it sounds a lot like Next is in the latter camp rather than the former so I'm not sure how to view this as anything but a step back. 4E actually gave weapon categories something approximating interesting choice beyond "does this do more damage per hit y/n" and if it meant your Fighter was a specialist then that was still a step up compared to the edition prior, and by all accounts it would still be a step up compared to Next. "Master of all weapons" isn't actually worth anything if there's no compelling reason for you to use various weapons in your 9-5 job of murdering monsters down the hole. Instead of giving different weapons different cool intrinsic fighting styles they brought back slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage differentiation which is like the most passive-aggressive, lovely way to nudge people into packing different weapons where it's not a joy so much as a chore, and of course magic doesn't have to worry about that poo poo because it just does "damage" assuming it doesn't simply bypass hitpoints outright.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 06:37
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:Serious question, does Next actually do anything to encourage you to play a Fighter who's constantly shuffling and juggling weapons, carefully planning their loadout based on rumors or discarding and grabbing weapons in the midst of combat in order to pull of sick combos, or is it like it was in 3E where you might have proficiency in a bunch of stuff but it didn't really matter because you basically just picked whatever hit hardest and stuck with that? It would help if they had more access to Styles, more easily available class features or Maneuvers based on weapon types, and other bonuses to encourage such a load out. Though at the very least you could rock a Crossbow, Shield and Maul/Greatsword as a Battle Master and do incredibly well even if forced to pick one style or the other.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 06:43
|
|
|
The choices are less interesting for sure, but you're not self-limiting them because of opportunity cost of being locked into a build. The primary benefit is that you can use just any old weapon you find lying around and be equally effective with it, rather than worrying that you didn't pick up the weapon that you've picked feats around and all of your powers have riders for. Being independent of any specific piece of equipment is pretty great. You'll never be the guy who turns up his nose a cool new magic axe because you built a "sword guy" instead, and I think that has a lot of value in terms of the fiction, if not necessarily the mechanics.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 06:50
|
|
|
^^^And if D&D Next was a rousingly fiction-first game like Dungeon World I might consider that a feature, but as it stands "you can pick up and use any old weapon you want! Not that you'll really want to or need to most of the time, but the option is there!" is still a consolation prize. I would rather have choices that encouraged specialization that were nonetheless cool and fun than "you can pick from limitless, equally uninteresting non-choices."Strength of Many posted:It would help if they had more access to Styles, more easily available class features or Maneuvers based on weapon types, and other bonuses to encourage such a load out. "It would help if the Fighter was, overall, a better designed class." I agree. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Sep 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 06:50
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:^^^And if D&D Next was a rousingly fiction-first game like Dungeon World I might consider that a feature, but as it stands "you can pick up and use any old weapon you want! Not that you'll really want to or need to most of the time, but the option is there!" is still a consolation prize. I would rather have choices that encouraged specialization that were nonetheless cool and fun than "you can pick from limitless, equally uninteresting non-choices." Eh you've clearly made up your mind about it, but in every session of 5ed I've ever played, the fighter and rogue have used multiple weapons and weapon types in each fight depending on the fiction and circumstances, rather than worrying that a choice might be non-optimal given their build choices.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 07:02
|
|
|
Elmo Oxygen posted:Eh you've clearly made up your mind about it, but in every session of 5ed I've ever played, the fighter and rogue have used multiple weapons and weapon types in each fight depending on the fiction and circumstances, rather than worrying that a choice might be non-optimal given their build choices. Well, fortunately, no one is critiquing your friends decision making ability wrt to playing 5e, so we're still good. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 07:07
|
|
|
Elmo Oxygen posted:Eh you've clearly made up your mind about it, but in every session of 5ed I've ever played, the fighter and rogue have used multiple weapons and weapon types in each fight depending on the fiction and circumstances, rather than worrying that a choice might be non-optimal given their build choices. I've made up my mind because you aren't really presenting a tremendously compelling reason for why the move away from 4E-style giving weapons cool associated fighting styles and/or bonuses isn't a step back, and also because Next isn't a very good game. "The choices are less interesting for sure, but you're not self-limiting them because of opportunity cost of being locked into a build." What am I supposed to be taking away from this? You agree that the choices are less interesting but you don't get locked into a build...except the value of not being locked into a build is really only relevant insofar as the unparalleled freedom to constantly switch weapons has some benefit to it. Does it? You haven't really put forth a case for this outside of "the fiction, and also you won't get screwed by random loot rolls." Having to stop and select the appropriate weapon because such-and-such monster resists all but [TYPE] damage isn't exactly a benefit either. e; look man, I would really loving love it if "master of all weapons" was actually some cool and compelling thing to get hype about, that would be rad as hell, but it doesn't sound like Next does this. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Sep 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 07:22
|
|
|
Salamander text and Fire Snake art / statblock got leaked. EDIT: decided to take some snark out about what classes might find this monster more difficult. EDIT 2: just realized this was out a few days ago, didn't recall seeing it in the thread Bhaal fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Sep 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 07:30
|
|
|
Elmo Oxygen posted:The choices are less interesting for sure, but you're not self-limiting them because of opportunity cost of being locked into a build. What situations come up regularly enough the fighter types are going to be reaching for "whatever is lying around" to get their murdering on rather then their own weapon that they carry with them? Bhaal posted:Salamander text and Firesnake art / statblock got leaked. Can anyone explain to me their rational behind the monster damage expressions in 5th? Here we have a monster that has: 2 separate attacks that apart from the different names are virtually identical Each attack hits for D4+1 and D6 damage (or 3 and 3) Overly complicated. Mr Beens fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Sep 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 07:31
|
|
|
Bhaal posted:Salamander text and Fire Snake art / statblock got leaked. I'm curious, what's the ratio of monsters that don't take half damage from non-magical weapons compared to those that do?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 07:35
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:I'm curious, what's the ratio of monsters that don't take half damage from non-magical weapons compared to those that do? Hey, man. You could pick up any weapon you want as a fighter. Just don't expect to do poo poo with it unless it's a random magical weapon you found because your GM rolled randomly/wouldn't adapt the scenario to what you normally use, or it's the magic weapon you invested a lot of money and time in because you can't kill anything without it. That'd be a little too versatile for a fighter. Goddamn, this is what got my players to say they wanted to stop playing Pathfinder. They were sick of their magic swords doing the fighting instead of their characters.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 07:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 12:53 |
|
|
Elmo Oxygen posted:The choices are less interesting for sure, but you're not self-limiting them because of opportunity cost of being locked into a build. The cool abilities that differentiate different types of weapon don't have to be gated behind limited resources like feats. Imagine if the fighter simply got to use all of them because he is a fighter (equivalently, got all the relevant feats for free): Then he could use all the weapons without getting punished for it and get cool abilities.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2014 07:49
|
|
