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LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:absolutely false. bitching is done for a reason, and it hurts to hear it, but bitching is quite often done for a reason, it might be for a lovely reason, or a great reason. If however you just get a hundred "your writing is bad and you should feel bad" replies, there's not much you can do with that. Yeah you could take a fresh look at your work, but chances are that if someone didn't see the problem when submitting, they're probably not going to see it without specifics. And you could guess from demographics what they're likely to have hated, but again, it's leaving you to self-analyse, something decent writers have already done. I realise this all started off talking about Thunderdome which largely contains good advice, but in the broader context of criticism in general there will always be a "you suck" contingent that aren't really helping.
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Sep 17, 2014 02:08
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Bobby Deluxe posted:If however you just get a hundred "your writing is bad and you should feel bad" replies, there's not much you can do with that. Yeah you could take a fresh look at your work, but chances are that if someone didn't see the problem when submitting, they're probably not going to see it without specifics. And you could guess from demographics what they're likely to have hated, but again, it's leaving you to self-analyse, something decent writers have already done. strongly disagree here, because you need to look at the context that surrounds the "its bad". are you asking a certain kind of audience? are they saying it after a certain amount o time with the book? that can all lead to "it sucks" for an actual reason. the fact that you got the "it sucks" at a certain point, or from a certain kind of person, or phrased in a certain way, or surrounding a certain context, means you do have information to work with. it may be impossible to discern the reason with the amountof information, but if you have a "this sucks" vs nothing, the this sucks can give you valuable information you would otherwise not. i come from industries where "this sucks" is information that is cataloged and used as hard data, and its very, very useful as such. unfortunately in criticism, the numbers are smaller and you cant work with secondary data sometimes so its a lot harder to parse, but it -is- useful.
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Sep 17, 2014 02:13
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Hey remember when someone had an actual question in the FA thread me neitherLiam Emsa posted:How do I not do this? Were the walls breathing? Pulsating? Maybe your protag perceived the texture of the paint/wallpaper crawling across the wall like bugs, or something? Be more specific. You're describing something really crazy here, and remember that the reader isn't psychic. You say "the walls moved" because in your mind, you can see how they're moving. You need to clue us in on exactly how they're moving though. Absolutely kill all instances of "he noticed", and use stronger verbs. Do not be afraid of verbs, they are your friend. I feel like, in this rewrite, you put your IDEAS in a more sensible order, but you left in most of the weak language. And honestly, you shouldn't quibble too much over one passage, but it's something you'll benefit from being mindful of as you write the rest of the piece. Keep it up, though! Sitting Here fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 02:52
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I think a great form of criticism that anyone can do is to read something and tell the writer, "I stopped reading here," and say where you lost interest and stopped wanting to read. Bonus points if you manage to articulate why you stopped, but even if the "why" isn't explained at all, it's still very valuable information.
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Sep 17, 2014 02:52
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I just need to pointlessly celebrate because no one I know will really get it like you guys: after three weeks of agonizing creative block, writing pages and pages of total crap, I finally had a huge breakthrough in my thinking.
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Sep 17, 2014 03:14
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blue squares posted:I just need to pointlessly celebrate because no one I know will really get it like you guys: after three weeks of agonizing creative block, writing pages and pages of total crap, I finally had a huge breakthrough in my thinking. Congrats. I know that feeling. It's like a fever breaking or, if you're some of us, taking a huuuuuge dump. 
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Sep 17, 2014 03:18
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Sep 17, 2014 03:24
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I get what you guys are saying, and this sort of thing is why CC is my favorite forum but, my biggest hang ups on criticism don't come from being criticized. People could complain about my work all day and I would probably laugh it off. Some things I might take to heart but for the most part, just laugh it off. I don't like criticizing people... and I don't think I have to like doing this. Some people looooove that poo poo. I don't really think that's a huge issue. I don't rage at people for what they think. I don't complain about other's work. I rarely like giving advice. I definitely do it more than I should. We certainly aren't going to run out of people who criticize? So... I'm sort of sidelining it on some things but, not everyone thinks they should criticize. ^And my neurosis on revising this post, is a good reason why I don't think I deserve to criticize people fehhh. Zip fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 03:45
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Zip posted:I don't like criticizing people... and I don't think I have to like doing this. Some people looooove that poo poo. As all people in this thread can attest, when I crit people's writing I touch myself.
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Sep 17, 2014 04:05
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you keep saying criticize which has a definite negative connotation. I think being "critical" and "criticizing" are not the same thing. Also crit is sometimes short for critique. You can give meaningful critiques without criticizing somebody. You can tell somebody that it isn't working without shutting them down. A lot of crits are very excited while telling somebody it's not working. "I'd love to read more of this if you fix x,y,z." You seem to backpedaling now and saying "oh well it's fine, but I don't want to do it." That's just being selfish. If you want people to give you feedback (which it doesn't sound like you do), then you should give some. Anyway why do you keep posting if it's not an issue for you? Why did you bother posting in the first place if it's just something that you don't want to participate in? You're one of those people that "hate drama" but are constantly embroiled in it, aren't you? (this is me criticizing you)
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Sep 17, 2014 04:06
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crabrock posted:Anyway why do you keep posting if it's not an issue for you? Why did you bother posting in the first place if it's just something that you don't want to participate in? You're one of those people that "hate drama" but are constantly embroiled in it, aren't you? (this is me criticizing you) Uhm. What? This thread is a place for discussion and fiction advice... I think it is a fair discussion (constant tropes aside.) Just because I don't want to give it doesn't mean I can't express my feelings on it. And you know... "Oh god, help I'm being criticized by crabrock."
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Sep 17, 2014 04:29
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and for the record... I never backpedaled on it.quote:gently caress criticism. You want my attention, compliment my work. You want my respect, buy my work. But, if you want me to criticize what you've written, I don't want to judge you... I'd rather encourage you to keep writing. I think I was pretty plain from the beginning that I didn't like giving it. I do like to read other's work. I don't like to bitch about it. Maybe that's being selfish but, wow crabrock you could bitch about anything. 
Zip fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 04:32
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Sep 17, 2014 04:37
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Sep 17, 2014 04:41
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Zip posted:Uhm. What? This thread is a place for discussion and fiction advice... I think it is a fair discussion (constant tropes aside.) So would you say, for example, the critique and advice I gave Liam Emsa is unhelpful? Should I have just been like "keep writing bro! You'll get it eventually!" Because that's how this started. Someone came here asking for a critique on a passage. That passage happened to need a lot more clarity and specificity, which I told him. Do you think Liam would be better off if we just gave them vague encouragement? I personally feel like I'm being lied to if I get a purely glowing critique. I'm not perfect, will never be perfect at writing, but I strive for perfection anyway. Readers and my fellow writers are my metric for how close to "perfect" I am, and without them, I'd be half blind to my own work. You don't have to give/take critique. Makes no difference to anyone here. It's just, I think a few people find it odd that someone who participates in a fiction community would be vehemently opposed to crits. quote:gently caress criticism. You want my attention, compliment my work. well duh. Compliments are nice and feel good. Critique is not instantly gratifying, since you have to turn around and go work on your writing (sigh) to get any benefit out of it. I just don't get the logic here. "Tell me all the stuff I'm already doing well, so I can get better"...?
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Sep 17, 2014 04:55
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Here's a good essay: http://imgur.com/PVzNJ7t
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Sep 17, 2014 04:56
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satsui no thankyou posted:
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Sep 17, 2014 04:57
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Liam Emsa posted:Here's a good essay: http://imgur.com/PVzNJ7t 
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Sep 17, 2014 05:05
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Liam Emsa posted:Here's a good essay: http://imgur.com/PVzNJ7t That was loving weird and that teacher sucks
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Sep 17, 2014 05:06
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I got a question: Has any one of you tried working on multiple stories in one sitting? If yes, how did you go about it? Was it productive?
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Sep 17, 2014 05:11
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no i have not, hope this helps
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Sep 17, 2014 05:12
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Also, I hit 2000 words today, 
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Sep 17, 2014 05:18
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Sitting Here posted:So would you say, for example, the critique and advice I gave Liam Emsa is unhelpful? Should I have just been like "keep writing bro! You'll get it eventually!" No.. he asked for that advice and you gave it. I think that's fair. Sitting Here posted:I personally feel like I'm being lied to if I get a purely glowing critique. I'm not perfect, will never be perfect at writing, but I strive for perfection anyway. Readers and my fellow writers are my metric for how close to "perfect" I am, and without them, I'd be half blind to my own work. Ya ok... fair point. Maybe I've kind of let a bad experience warp my views on it. Sitting Here posted:You don't have to give/take critique. Makes no difference to anyone here. It's just, I think a few people find it odd that someone who participates in a fiction community would be vehemently opposed to crits. I think I was kind of blunt about how I felt on the subject. I'm sure it's odd but I don't really ask for opinions on my work either. I do ask for plenty of advice on other stuff though so... I dunno... maybe you have a point. Sitting Here posted:well duh. Compliments are nice and feel good. Critique is not instantly gratifying, since you have to turn around and go work on your writing (sigh) to get any benefit out of it. Well... I don't think it's logic. I don't criticize people because people because... well a few bad experiences and also I think the rest of my life is bleeding into this. I spend my days working with special needs kids now... if we criticize or tell them no, they do pretty awful overall... So we just redirect and say positive things. Maybe it has bled over into the rest of things, but I don't like to criticize now. If I think someone needs an editor, I'll suggest one. If I like something, I'll say I like it. If I don't have anything supportive to say I just try to shut my mouth because no good ever comes from me telling someone I don't like something. This thread might actually prove that point.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:32
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I really think your problem is conflating critique and just telling people you don't like what they wrote. Like there's basically no relation between the two at all-- a good critique is good regardless of whether the person giving it liked what they're critiquing or not. What do you think isn't supportive about telling people what you see needs to be done to make their work better?
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Sep 17, 2014 05:39
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I'll just chime in and say that I don't have a problem with a critique, I just get really embarrassed and cringe when people are discussing stuff that I made, whether it's writing, artwork, or anything. It's probably because I don't have the confidence in my writing yet.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:52
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neongrey posted:What do you think isn't supportive about telling people what you see needs to be done to make their work better? Well, for starters I was in a writing group that was pretty nasty about this. A community college writing group with folks with inflated egos who were writing stuff that wasn't that entertaining, but with force, telling other writers how awful they were. It almost felt like a game of "tear others down to watch them squirm." My buddy Marcos was a really entertaining writer too. Very colorful in how he described things and he gave up writing after that. Although, he's never admitted that they had anything to do with him losing motivation. My other friend that I mentioned earlier that won a Hugo, he runs a fanzine and while he's certainly got the opportunity to do it... he rarely criticizes anyone. He just appreciates people for what they do. He is very enthusiastic when he likes stuff and very politely tells them when he's impressed. I think seeing that kind of changed my views on it too.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:52
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So you know... maybe in the long run trying to be more positive might seem like bullshit, maybe I'm just going through a weird zen thing..but right now I don't feel confident enough to tell someone that I don't like their stuff... or that they need to change something. I'd rather just tell someone what I like or move on.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:59
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i like writing, any advice on stringing words into coherent-like, punctuated strings that do not resemble alphabet vomit?
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Sep 17, 2014 06:00
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LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:i like writing, any advice on stringing words into coherent-like, punctuated strings that do not resemble alphabet vomit? Read stuff
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Sep 17, 2014 06:01
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LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:i like writing, any advice on stringing words into coherent-like, punctuated strings that do not resemble alphabet vomit? man, lou... it's late and explaining I'm insane has worn me out.
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Sep 17, 2014 06:03
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Zip posted:but right now I don't feel confident enough to tell someone that I don't like their stuff... or that they need to change something. Giving critique, like writing, is a skill you can get better with practice. You see, this is one of the things that Thunderdome helped me with. Because I can be sure that TD people aren't big babbies about their words (with a few exceptions), I can be as rigorous as I could with my critique and expect them to take it. I used to have issues with this, because I kept thinking "I don't deserve to crit these people because they're so much better than me!" But that's wrong, because good writers are still perfectly capable of writing bad stories, and calling that poo poo out would help them get better. And since most people do come back and improve, I can be confident that my critique would be helpful to them. It's also one of the things that surprisingly made me better at writing, because the better I got at crits, the more confidence I got in editing my own work, as I could articulate my opinions better.
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Sep 17, 2014 06:21
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Personally I think repeated use of ellipses betrays a lack of writing and communication skills.
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Sep 17, 2014 06:27
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Zip, man. I totally get that you have your own reasons for wanting a more positive, encouraging writing environment. But like, half of the participants of this thread are also participants in Thunderdome. Which has, for better or worse, become a sort of institution in CC, as you know since you read it. Critique is a huge part of what keeps TD going. There have been more than 300 unique contributors to Thunderdome since 2012; obviously the competitive element is a big part of it, but the critiques are important, too. A TON of people (possibly several tons of people) seem to keep coming back to get their wounds salted. What I'm saying is you've got a pretty crit-oriented group of people here. Also, the Crits: Good or Bad? conversation comes up pretty often, and it always ends with some people thinking crits are good, some people thinking crits are bad, and just about everyone being a dick. I mean lets face it as much as this thread provides great advice, certain conversations come up again and again and pretty much just provide CCers with another procrastination tool. I mean, I'm not writing a story right now. Are you?
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Sep 17, 2014 10:10
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Re: being scared of Thunderdome let me just say that I have judged before and while yes sometimes I yell at people or mock them I generally submit my crits and two hours later I'll have forgotten that you or your story ever existed so it's not like you're permanently disgraced or anything. Unless you wrote Rural Rentboys. That story will live in our hearts forever. LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:i like writing, any advice on stringing words into coherent-like, punctuated strings that do not resemble alphabet vomit? Fill up your toolbox. Read books, read other TD stories, read about writing. Pick up turns of phrases, ways to express things, narrative tricks that way. I'm ESL and I always have a huge problem with prose, especially description, but reading, writing, thinking in English helps and sometimes when I notice a neat story or segment I'll read it multiple times and analyze how it works.
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Sep 17, 2014 11:02
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[/quote]
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Sep 17, 2014 13:22
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The Saddest Rhino posted:Personally I think repeated use of ellipses betrays a lack of writing and communication skills.
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Sep 17, 2014 13:28
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Don't dogpile Zip, remember he was the guy who like helped dying kids in the hospital or something and he seems like a genuinely cool guy...I just really like his avatar, a lot
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Sep 17, 2014 13:32
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Ellipses suck and I won't apologize for that. But here's something that may be more worthwile: Critiques on CC saved my writing. I've been writing since I was a kid, from ridiculous stories about ninjas (from the two not-Japanese lands of Hiroshima and Nagasaki) at the age of 9 to horrible derivative fantasy at 14, and so on. By the time I graduated college, I was a semi-decent writer with some cool characters and storylines. But my craft still sucked. I used way too many words, and didn't ever know when to start or end a scene. No, I didn't need to write about the protag waking up, showering, driving to the place where the action started, what he was listening to on the radio on the way over, and what he ate for lunch after the action scene was over. Etc. I knew something was wrong with my poo poo, but I didn't know what it was. I finished a novel and though some friends who read it really liked it, I knew deep down that it actually kinda sucked. The characters and setting may have been solid, but the prose needed serious work and the structure was terrible. So a couple years ago, I posted the first few chapters here on CC. Two posters named Nautatrol Rx (later Erik Shawn-Bohner) and Stuporstar tore my poo poo apart. Then another one named SuspiciousPuffin (or something) jumped in, among others. They were harsh but also constructive. They saw the solid core to the novel. It was the kick in the rear end I'd needed since I left school five years prior. Then, after a few months of really working my craft and with ESB and Stupor's help, I founded Thunderdome. And we've all seen where that went. I kept writing up a storm, both in and out of that thread, and not only did I improve significantly, but I finally got something published. In a no-pay, now defunct online queer spec fic rag, but a publishing credit no less. Critique is not the enemy. If people are doing it wrong, that's one thing. But if it's done right, it should do nothing but encourage you. To prove my point, if you're willing to share one of your stories with me in Fiction Farm or just via a PM'd dropbox or Google drive link, I'll be happy to give you an in-depth, constructive critique. If I don't like something, I'll tell you why. If something sucks or doesn't work, I'll tell you why and give suggestions on ways that I would make it better. If I like something, I'll also tell you why. That's what a good critique should be. You take all that with a big grain of salt - especially the "do it this way" suggestions - and figure out what you actually need to change. It's even better when you get to know your crit partners well. I still do a biweekly live reading/crit session via Skype with Erik Shawn-Bohner, twinkle cave, and whatever deadbeat supporting cast decide to call in. Now that we know each other so well, it's easier to separate good, useful criticism from personal taste, pet peeves, and biases. Critique can and should be a wonderful thing, and I hate to see someone's bad experience and personal hang-ups get in the way.
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Sep 17, 2014 14:47
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I know this topic's kinda been done before but I am genuinely interested in it. As someone who hasn't done much hard critique, can people outline the sort of things I should be looking for/saying? I've done a few TD crits but I wasn't sure if they were much use to the writers concerned.
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Sep 17, 2014 14:53
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Sitting Here posted:Zip, man. I totally get that you have your own reasons for wanting a more positive, encouraging writing environment. Ya I get that. I never insulted TD though. I just don't think it is my place to write and I made a statement about what I thought of criticism. I wasn't trying to step on toes. Sitting Here posted:Also, the Crits: Good or Bad? conversation comes up pretty often, and it always ends with some people thinking crits are good, some people thinking crits are bad, and just about everyone being a dick. I mean lets face it as much as this thread provides great advice, certain conversations come up again and again and pretty much just provide CCers with another procrastination tool. Yea, yea I know. I didn't write one word beyond this thread last night. So ya you're right. Zip fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 15:12
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