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Ligur posted:Or do you, honestly, disagree, and think thoughts or how people behave in a society spring up completely unrelated to their surroundings? I think people are more willing to adapt to change than you give them credit for (especially if you don't literally shove them into a ghetto).
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Sep 17, 2014 12:55
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Ligur posted:It's really frustrating to read your ranting as you consistently refuse to understand what people are saying. Open up your mind a bit. There actually exist reasons for people not agreeing with all your views other than being evil or racist. but this is not their problem. this is a shortcoming of our system. integration takes a long time anyways, we are talking decades before you can see results. Eg. the successful integration of the vietnamese community in Norway also, the amount of refugees sweden accepts is indeed very large, and the immigration system is as a result put under a lot of stress. however, these people still have to go somewhere. if the other nordic countries actually helped out, refugees would be more evenly spread out between nations. sweden is paying the price due to the rest of europe lacking the common decency of actually helping people in need.
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Sep 17, 2014 13:01
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Realistically the best thing for the rest of the world at this point is for Sweden to double down on its experiment, so as to set the most powerful example for the rest of the world. It won't be any great loss, because as we now know, Sweden's culture consists of nothing more than Midsummer's Eve and such silly things, its people are completely interchangeable with Somalians, and its civic institutions are merely the result of chance geography.
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Sep 17, 2014 13:02
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Rnr posted:So you think the current situation is comparable to what lead to the holocaust? Well, that certainly takes the debate in new and fruitful directions (for those that have actual, and correct, knowledge of course). It does resemble the situation pretty well though. SD is a clearly facist and authoritarian party. Take the whitelisting as an example, they have this neo-nazi history and to rebrand themselves they purge the party of those who portray them in a bad light. Several people near the party top has said that this process was not only ordered but also very much controlled by the top. They don't follow any democratic principles in the way they handle party politics, and now they are "threatening" ("vi räds inte omval") to force a new election. In what way are they less facist then the nazi-party was when they first got any sort of power?
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Sep 17, 2014 13:04
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catbread.jpg posted:its people are completely interchangeable with Somalians 
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Sep 17, 2014 13:06
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catbread.jpg posted:Realistically the best thing for the rest of the world at this point is for Sweden to double down on its experiment, so as to set the most powerful example for the rest of the world. Thanks for this stunningly intellectual contribution, person-whose-opinions-certainly-matter-and-is-worth-listening-to. Would you like to fight the strawmen a little more, perhaps trot out another pathethically vapid idea of "culture" or just skip to the end and leave in an arrogant huff muttering about the leftist conspiracy?
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Sep 17, 2014 13:08
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catbread.jpg posted:Realistically the best thing for the rest of the world at this point is for Sweden to double down on its experiment, so as to set the most powerful example for the rest of the world.
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Sep 17, 2014 13:20
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Konec Hry posted:Thanks for this stunningly intellectual contribution, person-whose-opinions-certainly-matter-and-is-worth-listening-to. Would you like to fight the strawmen a little more, perhaps trot out another pathethically vapid idea of "culture" or just skip to the end and leave in an arrogant huff muttering about the leftist conspiracy? Bzzzzzzzzt. Try again. I wish it were a strawman, it's more just the final reductio ad absurdum of the denial of the dominant factors that shape human history. How does it feel knowing that Lothrop Stoddard was right about basically everything? Given the merest glimmer of the scientific knowledge we have now, just the confirmation of the existence of discrete elements of heredity, he was able to form accurate conclusions and predict the consequences for human civilisation. A century on and billions of dollars of research later, we are back almost exactly to his state of knowledge in the 1920s, after rending our souls in the denial.
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Sep 17, 2014 13:23
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Forgall posted:I'd rather you didn't experiment with giving neonazis noticeable representation in government, but that's up to you. He's not Swedish, I don't think. e: Jesus loving christ, what's up with all of these idiots crawling out of the woodwork all of a sudden? Racial anthropology? Are you kidding me? Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 13:23
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computer parts posted:I think people are more willing to adapt to change than you give them credit for (especially if you don't literally shove them into a ghetto). When did I say people are unwilling to adapt? I think people are quite willing. I think USA is a good example if anyone doubts that. It's just that we're not USA. Any of their measures with how to go about integration would be instantly torpedoed by our Right Thinking and Good Nordic Social Democrats. Also USA is a country of immigrants to begin with and has a completely different mental view to everything related (not to mention how the economy works), so it's a bad analogue to any political changes but surely proves the willingness of spirit for the human to change to make it. Atal Vataman posted:but this is not their problem. this is a shortcoming of our system. This I could not agree with more, and is what I've been saying since forever! quote:also, the amount of refugees sweden accepts is indeed very large, and the immigration system is as a result put under a lot of stress. however, these people still have to go somewhere. if the other nordic countries actually helped out, refugees would be more evenly spread out between nations. sweden is paying the price due to the rest of europe lacking the common decency of actually helping people in need. Has it ever occurred to you a lot of people might be immigrating to Sweden via asylum and family re-unification, precisely because it is so easy and the benefits can be quite, quite attractive as opposed to living in the Middle-East or East-Africa? If every EU country had the benefits and immigrant policies of Estonia (basically you can come over and ask if you can stay, if you are under dire personal threat, but have to make do yourself otherwise) these people might not be going anywhere in the first place.
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Sep 17, 2014 13:31
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catbread.jpg posted:Lothrop Stoddard was right about basically everything Edit: Ligur posted:Has it ever occurred to you a lot of people might be immigrating to Sweden via asylum and family re-unification, precisely because it is so easy and the benefits can be quite, quite attractive as opposed to living in the Middle-East or East-Africa? If every EU country had the benefits and immigrant policies of Estonia (basically you can come over and ask if you can stay, if you are under dire personal threat, but have to make do yourself otherwise) these people might not be going anywhere in the first place. Truck Stop Daddy fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 13:32
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Atal Vataman posted:"hey im a racist" "how swedes debate immigration" quote:Edit: But you just implied these immigrants have to go "somewhere", and they are going to Sweden only because Estonia and Bulgaria and Denmark and whatever are not sharing the load. Look, if every EU country had your immigration policies in regards to asylum and family re-unification, the amount of asylum seekers coming to Europe would quintuple on two weeks and continue doing that until we die. Anyway, now I must ask has it ever occurred to you that a small country like Sweden cannot possibly afford these benefits to everyone in the world who wants them? Or that there are actually limits to what country X can afford in terms of new housing and having unemployed people living in them?
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Sep 17, 2014 13:46
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Atal Vataman posted:also, the amount of refugees sweden accepts is indeed very large, and the immigration system is as a result put under a lot of stress. however, these people still have to go somewhere. if the other nordic countries actually helped out, refugees would be more evenly spread out between nations. sweden is paying the price due to the rest of europe lacking the common decency of actually helping people in need. Yeah, but that's not going to happen any time soon. In the meantime, one has to consider whether or not “doing the right thing” is worth it, given an evergrowing SD. I am not so sure, anymore. I'd hate for myself to end up in a spot where I'm arguing for reduced immigration, not so much because I'm worried about immigrants or any of that poo poo, but because of SD. 
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Sep 17, 2014 13:52
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Rnr posted:So you think the current situation is comparable to what lead to the holocaust? Well, that certainly takes the debate in new and fruitful directions (for those that have actual, and correct, knowledge of course). No I actually meant what I said in a literal sense.
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Sep 17, 2014 13:53
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Ligur posted:"how swedes debate immigration" "The Rising Tide of Color: The Threat Against White World-Supremacy (1920), by Lothrop Stoddard, later republished in other titles, like The Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy, postulates the collapse of white world empire, and of colonialism, because of the population growth among colored peoples. The postulations constitute scientific racism, with which Stoddard concludes for, and advocates, a eugenic separation of the "primary races" of the world."
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Sep 17, 2014 14:01
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Ligur posted:"how swedes debate immigration" Ligur posted:But you just implied these immigrants have to go "somewhere", and they are going to Sweden only because Estonia and Bulgaria and Denmark and whatever are not sharing the load. Look, if every EU country had your immigration policies in regards to asylum and family re-unification, the amount of asylum seekers coming to Europe would quintuple on two weeks and continue doing that until we die. welfare springs from the community, if everyone contributes it should even out. if theres a part of nordic culture that is threatened it is "dugnadsånd," and that is under threat from the market, not our immigrants
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Sep 17, 2014 14:06
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Atal Vataman posted:You are obviously trolling. stoddard was a literally racist and proponent for eugenics. I see you haven't met Ligur before. 
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Sep 17, 2014 14:10
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Has it ever occured to anyone that Sweden is only running a very slight budget deficit in a time of crisis and that what "Sweden can afford" is a whole lot more than it is spending right now? Just sort the poll numbers by V and you see that were people are aware of the class-struggle they don't vote for SD compared to the rest of the nation. The reason for the degradation of welfare and the public sector is intended, not because we're being flooded by brown people.
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Sep 17, 2014 14:25
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zokie posted:Has it ever occured to anyone that Sweden is only running a very slight budget deficit in a time of crisis and that what "Sweden can afford" is a whole lot more than it is spending right now? Apparently not: Fredrik Reinfeldt posted:De är så pass omfattande att det kommer att lägga ytterligare restriktioner för vad som finns utrymme för i offentlig finansiering. Därför lovar vi nära nog ingenting i den här valrörelsen, det kommer inte att finnas utrymme för det. http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19374579.ab
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Sep 17, 2014 14:58
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zokie posted:Has it ever occured to anyone that Sweden is only running a very slight budget deficit in a time of crisis and that what "Sweden can afford" is a whole lot more than it is spending right now? Just sort the poll numbers by V and you see that were people are aware of the class-struggle they don't vote for SD compared to the rest of the nation. The reason for the degradation of welfare and the public sector is intended, not because we're being flooded by brown people. On the other hand, you have traditionally solid S industrial municipalities, with a history of heavy immigration and general solidarity (up until today), were people are very much aware, like Eskilstuna, going hard for SD. http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=1637&artikel=5958605 <(In Swedish - I'm thinking of the old lady and the industrial worker especially - breaks my heart )They know it's the bourgeoisie done hosed them up, but telling them that “they can afford to pay more” isn't going to win them back. E: unless you can somehow convince Stockholm to commit to massive wealth transfers between it and the periphery. Which you won't. Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 15:00
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I know that the battle over public finances seems to be lost, but slowly it looks like austerianism is losing support. And the point still stands that if someone could have full employment killing nazis the same can be achived helping people and keeping the racists out of power. All this talk about "ordning och reda" is laughable when we both have record high unemployment and deflation.
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Sep 17, 2014 15:09
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Karpaw posted:You're trolling but I'll bite. Do you know how many muslim immigrants actually support Sharia? It's a single-digit percentage or very close. That was just an example of what could be done, not an absolute demand. Obviously any measures taken to harmonize the culture of the host nation with the immigrants norms and expecations has to be rooted in emperical knowlegde about what those expectations are. If they don`t want sharia courts then we can safely drop that idea. But in the event that they do want it...why not? It migth even be good thing for our secular courts to get some kind of competition. But again that was just an example. I am still not trolling. I have opinons that are unsual and perhaps even disagreeable to many , but they are genuine.
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Sep 17, 2014 15:42
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Svartvit posted:"The Rising Tide of Color: The Threat Against White World-Supremacy (1920), by Lothrop Stoddard, later republished in other titles, like The Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy, postulates the collapse of white world empire, and of colonialism, because of the population growth among colored peoples. The postulations constitute scientific racism, with which Stoddard concludes for, and advocates, a eugenic separation of the "primary races" of the world." Atal Vataman posted:You are obviously trolling. stoddard was a literally racist and proponent for eugenics. I don't even, honestly, know who or what a stoddar is?! I was making fun of the fact if someone says "immigration should be limited to some extent" the Swede debater either says nothing, or calls the other person a racist. As if the other option doesn't even exist. For gently caress's sake, that makes so little sense. Of course a country of a certain size and system should be able to decide how, why, and how many immigrants they receive from outside. This should not be some sort of illegal thought. Though Benito there flashed it could, but of course, for all the wrong reasons. I don't think you should limit immigration because some political party you don't like might gain votes. You should limit it because if you want to help, you should shoot money everywhere else. quote:So what you are saying is that the rest of the world somehow does not deserve the benefits that swedes have, due them being from a different geographical location? ok. Not at all, are you not able to read? What I'm saying is that if Sweden doesn't have housing or jobs for the people who make up 25% of all the asylum seekers in Europe right now, and who are coming to Sweden, granting them asylum or family re-unification and a new home will not change the fact that not all people have a Western Standard of Living. In fact it changes almost nothing, apart from your society. And you can't give everyone that deserving Nordic welfare, no matter how much you try. The problems on location have to be fixed. On location. Granting many asylum seekers asylum will instead give you a bunch of issues though while not fixing any. But if you are FINE with those problems, go ahead and do it. But for the Love of God, don't say people who doubt the wisdom of this maneuver are evil or racist, they are just being sensible about the fact. It is not helping anything globally, and your system is being abused. Argh. It's like discussing with trees. They respond, but only because the wind shakes the leaves.
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Sep 17, 2014 16:14
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We need to receive more immigrants because at this sorry rate it will take what, thousands?! of years to get more votes than Germany in the EU  Also protip: Put ligur and his nazi buddies on your fabolous ignore list. My only worry is that it might be starting to overflow at this rate, releasing some other horrid posters from its safe confines to plague my mind at some later date before I realize what's happening 
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Sep 17, 2014 16:22
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Pimpmust posted:arlfelfelge nazeis Vladimir Putin needs you in his staff.
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Sep 17, 2014 16:31
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Ligur posted:When did I say people are unwilling to adapt? I think people are quite willing. I think USA is a good example if anyone doubts that. It's just that we're not USA. Any of their measures with how to go about integration would be instantly torpedoed by our Right Thinking and Good Nordic Social Democrats. Also USA is a country of immigrants to begin with and has a completely different mental view to everything related (not to mention how the economy works), so it's a bad analogue to any political changes but surely proves the willingness of spirit for the human to change to make it. Basically any of the New World has similar ideas of cultural integration as the US, and even though they are younger than most of the European cultures they are still old enough that their example could be followed as a cultural guideline.
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Sep 17, 2014 16:53
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Ligur posted:I don't even, honestly, know who or what a stoddar is?! I was making fun of the fact if someone says "immigration should be limited to some extent" the Swede debater either says nothing, or calls the other person a racist. As if the other option doesn't even exist. For gently caress's sake, that makes so little sense. Of course a country of a certain size and system should be able to decide how, why, and how many immigrants they receive from outside. This should not be some sort of illegal thought. I love you, the guy you're defending mentioned that he thought Stoddar was right all along. As in Lothrop Stoddard, a big proponent of eugenics from the early 1900's. http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothrop_Stoddard But please go on making a fool of yourself. 
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Sep 17, 2014 17:02
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computer parts posted:You said that someone raised in another culture would inherently not share the same social values and implied that it would be significantly difficult to settle the differences. Yes. They would not share the same social values indeed. And it will be quite difficult to settle these differences. Is this something you don't believe in, or just don't know about? Xoidanor posted:I love you, the guy you're defending mentioned that he thought Stoddar was right all along. As in Lothrop Stoddard, a big proponent of eugenics from the early 1900's. I'm not defending anyone, I was just making a loving joke about how Swedes discuss immigration: "Unless it's good, ur a racist." No other options exist. That quote just sort of flashed into my eye because it was so representative of how things are. I don't know anything about any Stoddard and probably never will. And also nothing about anyone I was "defending" in this case, because I don't even know who the poster or his nickname is who I am supposed to defend. Are you loving blind or just stupid, or is it that D&D thing where you build strawmen? Ligur fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 17:14
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Ligur posted:I was making fun of the fact if someone says "immigration should be limited to some extent" the Swede debater either says nothing, or calls the other person a racist. "Oh those Swedish debaters, your not even allowed to say that Hitler was right before they call you a racist"  Ligur posted:Granting many asylum seekers asylum will instead give you a bunch of issues though while not fixing any. Asylum/ASYL DOES change things, it saves peoples lives. That's the whole point. Asylum = protection from violence or persecution. Ligur posted:In fact it changes almost nothing, apart from your society. And you can't give everyone that deserving Nordic welfare, no matter how much you try. The problems on location have to be fixed. On location. It's hard to fix things on the spot if the thing is "I live in an active warzone and my neighbors got his head chopped off" or "I live in a society that will kill me for my sexual orientation". It's not that "I will be poor and have no clean drinking water" it is " I will die. Someone will kill me, my life is in danger". Sidenote: For all other immigration casees, Sweden does have income checks, job checks and all what SD is slobbering for. For a EU immigrant for example, you need to either A. Have a job ready when you come. B. Have money saved up/Pension for at least a year or more. C. Be in a close relationship or relative with Swedish Citizen D. Be a relative a Swedish citizen (or someone with permanent staying rights i belive? Unsure.) E. Have someone vouch that they will completely care of your needs (Which then triggers a bunch of other checks for income and blalblaba). The view that you can just walk up to the migration office and get a staying permit is false, there are many checks and balances for the non asylum cases.
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Sep 17, 2014 17:19
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First good response about the issue. Hats loving off and hacka löken.
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Sep 17, 2014 17:20
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catbread.jpg posted:Bzzzzzzzzt. Try again. I wish it were a strawman, it's more just the final reductio ad absurdum of the denial of the dominant factors that shape human history. How do you still exist on this forum? Reinstate lf.
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Sep 17, 2014 17:34
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rant incoming and I will probably offend someone with it:but lol at all these naive idealistic lefties who thinks the whole fuckin world should be living in scandinavia(Im exaggerating cuz this is D&D and reason is not something people do here). Have you actually been in a förort? or ever lived there? of course we should help asylum seekers and refugees, but the current system of how we integrate these people into society and treat them is a joke. Maybe, just maybe the government will take this issue seriously now that SD(usch) got some power(blä). But I doubt it cause its oh so convenient to say that you want to help. and then just put these people among the other immigrants and forget about them. Maybe we actually should limit the immigration so we can spend money on the ones that are here instead of treating them as second class citizens? and yes yes there is so much money, and we can all share! but no, the world dont look like that, so even talkin like that is a possibility is pretty dumb. aint gonna be no socialist revolution in the coming years. Thats my 5 öre, something needs to change, but I or we aint gonna find the solution to the problems here. So please ignore my post and keep doin whatever you are doin. (mods please move this to gbs so I can get some laughs from all this)
Zombiepop fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 18:29
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Those SD voters just want to treat immigrants like equals, but mean lefties aren't letting them.
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Sep 17, 2014 18:37
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Ligur posted:I don't even, honestly, know who or what a stoddar is?! I was making fun of the fact if someone says "immigration should be limited to some extent" the Swede debater either says nothing, or calls the other person a racist. We call you a racist when you say loving racist things and make up anecdotes about Somali goat herders and present them as serious arguments. We've been constantly talking about actual issues with our current immigration policy (and there is a broad consensus here that such problems exist and need to be debated) in this thread but I guess as long as you're not saying racist poo poo it doesn't count as debating immigration? The entire argument about ~incompatible cultures~ is loving bullshit too. Syria, Iraq, Iran and a lot of other middle eastern countries we get a lot of refugees from are (or have been, in living memory) relatively modern industrialized countries with regular courts of law, and immigrants on average are not significantly less educated than the indigenous population here (we get a relatively low number of poor people because they simply can't afford to get here). The problem is getting that Syrian doctor specialized on hereditary diseases a job that isn't a complete waste of human capital, it's not educating these imagined Somali sharia-following goat herders on HBTQ rights. God knows we have enough problems with that in the indigenous population. If you want to keep bringing up retarded anecdotes I can counter with a few retarded anecdotes of my own, such as the tweed-wearing secular Iranian management consultant we have at work (came here with his family as a refugee), or the deeply muslim faithful Bangladeshi Sharepoint developer I met when he was standing around looking awkward at a corporate conference after-party with free beer - he didn't drink, of course - (came here five years ago while our universities were still free for all them immigrants to leech off of, hurr durr), or the chill dude who loves extremely hard Japanese shmups who came here from Marocko via France and speaks four languages fluently. Somali goat herders, indeed. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 19:17
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Zombiepop posted:but lol at all these naive idealistic lefties "naive left" is pretty much the most laughable thing to be called when the other 2 options is either free liberal market or a party with a top member who calls others "blatte lover" when he's upset.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:30
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I said I was exaggeratting  I dont feel the political situation is quite as gloomy, but each to his own so whatever.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:40
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TheFluff posted:The entire argument about ~incompatible cultures~ is loving bullshit too. I don't even know why people (non-swedes(?), incidentally) brought it up. Not even SD really push this angle with much vigor anymore (they still believe it, mind). Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 19:43
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TheFluff posted:We call you a racist when you say loving racist things and make up anecdotes about Somali goat herders aasfasfasfQAREAEGEG!!"¤ I accept defeat; somalis herd actually mostly camels, not goats. But don't bullshit yourself about actually discussing your current immigration policy and numbers, you yourself said "a few thousand" when it's closer to "one hundred... thousand", and even if you pretend not, most get a pass. And it's not because there suddenly exist billions of refugees that did not exist before. It's because it's so easy to get asylum and family re-unification over there as long as you get there (otherwise we would see similar numbers in Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, Finland, Estonia, everywhere) and people who live in certain places know it. Look, that is a business. People make MONEY out of it. Lots of money. Lots of Swedes too. There are tons of new millionaires out of running some sort of centers for immigrants. Ligur fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 20:29
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Zombiepop posted:rant incoming and I will probably offend someone with it: Not offended. Zombiepop posted:Maybe we actually should limit the immigration so we can spend money on the ones that are here instead of treating them as second class citizens? Zombiepop posted:and yes yes there is so much money, and we can all share! but no, the world dont look like that, so even talkin like that is a possibility is pretty dumb.
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Sep 17, 2014 20:32
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Ligur posted:I accept defeat; somalis herd actually mostly camels, not goats. But don't bullshit yourself about actually discussing your current immigration policy and numbers, you yourself said "a few thousand" when it's closer to "one hundred... thousand", and even if you pretend not, most get a pass. I'm also not the only poster in this thread. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 20:59
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