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To be fair, the same thing tends to happen with Dresden.
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Sep 17, 2014 14:04
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With Rivers of London, he might be a better writer, and his books might be better quality, but to me, they weren't more enjoyable. He wrote more like Tolkien, where pages or even chapters go by without anything remotely interesting happening, vs. with Dresden, everything that happens is both important and it's interesting the whole way through. Seems like a British thing to me, because I've seen the same thing with other British authors.
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Sep 17, 2014 14:45
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OneTwentySix posted:With Rivers of London, he might be a better writer, and his books might be better quality, but to me, they weren't more enjoyable. He wrote more like Tolkien, where pages or even chapters go by without anything remotely interesting happening, vs. with Dresden, everything that happens is both important and it's interesting the whole way through. Seems like a British thing to me, because I've seen the same thing with other British authors. Benedict Jacka's Alex Verus series is very similar in tone and writing style to Butcher's. There's not much "Power Creep" in the Verus series either, except with the opponents really. Though, to be fair, I was always more of a powergamer type player when I played D&D and such games, so the power creep of Dresden doesn't bother me, and for the most part feels fairly natural.
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Sep 17, 2014 15:20
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Wade Wilson posted:To be fair, the same thing tends to happen with Dresden. Hey now. Dresden sometimes gets new powers from having powerful mental interaction that results in a baby. That's different.
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Sep 17, 2014 16:20
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ImpAtom posted:Hey now. Dresden sometimes gets new powers from having powerful mental interaction that results in a baby. That's different. Dresden also barely ever actually has sex. I can only think of twice on-screen, and while one of those certainly resulted in a power-up, the aftereffects of the other sorta balanced it out.
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Sep 17, 2014 16:24
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Dresden also barely ever actually has sex. I can only think of twice on-screen, and while one of those certainly resulted in a power-up, the aftereffects of the other sorta balanced it out. Three. Although the last one was in a dream. Death Masks (Susan) Changes (Mab) Skin Game (Murphy)
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Sep 17, 2014 16:55
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torgeaux posted:No, they're just less good, that doesn't mean bad. Oh, hey, look! Someone on the internet expresses their opinion as fact when people don't agree with them. Next, maybe you'll post in all caps? Maybe then someone might agree with you.
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Sep 17, 2014 17:59
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Wade Wilson posted:Wait until they start doing meth. Thanks for telling me to stick with it, because I am now forced to retract all my earlier complaints about the book. Yes, I just got to the part where Gaiman gets to be a ruthless motherfucker, and boy did poo poo get real. Book is legit, hope the ending doesn't disappoint!
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Sep 17, 2014 18:19
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Mr.48 posted:Thanks for telling me to stick with it, because I am now forced to retract all my earlier complaints about the book. Yes, I just got to the part where Gaiman gets to be a ruthless motherfucker, and boy did poo poo get real. Book is legit, hope the ending doesn't disappoint! Unfortunately, the bits about Hell in that book are pretty much the best parts.
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Sep 17, 2014 21:23
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ConfusedUs posted:Three. Although the last one was in a dream. That last one got me so good when I was reading it; I had to put the book down because I was tricked so damned completely. I figured it had to happen at some point, right? Then BAM, just a dream. Probably the most I've enjoyed a sex scene in a book, though a lot of that comes from the fact that it didn't actually happen. 
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Sep 17, 2014 22:50
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ConfusedUs posted:Three. Although the last one was in a dream. The spoiler really misses the larger implication of that particular scene.
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Sep 18, 2014 03:07
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I've been reading a lot of the early Dresden books, and there seem to be a lot of comments from faeries and other entities that Dresden is not mortal. I wonder if it will eventually be revealed that Dresden will become Merlin, the Gatekeeper, Odin, and Santa Claus. Considering the not so subtle implication that most of them have loyalties to winter... and the not subtle at all implication that one character literally built a prison for Outsiders, other criminals, and possibly Arthur... and Dresden just happens to be the only person that has an idea of how to build the prison... Also, the Gatekeeper and Odin seem to have vaguely similar backstories, in the sense that Odin allowed one of his eyes to be removed in order to be granted the privilege of being able to obtain knowledge.
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Sep 18, 2014 07:55
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Murgos posted:Oh, hey, look! Someone on the internet expresses their opinion as fact when people don't agree with them. No, I was posting my opinion, period. You being a jackass doesn't change that. I don't think anyone was confused that I was expressing an opinion. Edit: on a non-internet hissy fit note, when did butcher design the overarching story? I mean, when did he first discuss that was the plan going forward? I'm curious about when he started aiming that way. torgeaux fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Sep 18, 2014 |
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Sep 18, 2014 13:07
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ConfusedUs posted:Cold Days is really, really good. It's also an incredibly important book. The problem is that what draws people to the Dresden Files, is Harry Dresden: A relatively minor wizard who lives in a lovely apartment in Chicago, has a broken hockey stick for a staff, drives a multicoloured, wheezing VW Beetle, is so completely irreverent and cocky that he put himself in the goddamn yellow pages under "Wizard", and does his best to kick his local chapter of Team Evil in the teeth when he can, despite having almost zero resources other than cleverness at his disposal. I loving love that character. That character is, as you noted, dead, and has been replaced by superpowered winter-knight superhero mega-wizard who's list of responsibilities includes defending a cosmic doomsday device capable of destroying reality, being The Chosen One in a fight for reality itself, and regularly chatting up literal gods and demigods all the time. The problem is that I just don't find the second one as interesting, and I don't think the series can survive the shift, because this is exactly the kind of character development that killed Codex Alera. Geisladisk fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Sep 18, 2014 |
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Sep 18, 2014 14:25
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Geisladisk posted:The problem is that what draws people to the Dresden Files, is Harry Dresden: A relatively minor wizard who lives in a lovely apartment in Chicago, has a broken hockey stick for a staff, drives a multicoloured, wheezing VW Beetle, is so completely irreverent and cocky that he put himself in the goddamn yellow pages under "Wizard", and does his best to kick his local chapter of Team Evil in the teeth when he can, despite having almost zero resources other than cleverness at his disposal. I loving love that character. While I obviously agree with your opinion on where it should have gone, the books will still sell, and even be entertaining. They just won't have that charm they had before. Too bad, I may check out the comics as recommended.
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Sep 18, 2014 14:31
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Geisladisk posted:The problem is that I You are in the minority there. The series will survive losing you as a reader
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Sep 18, 2014 14:32
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Geisladisk posted:has a broken hockey stick for a staff
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Sep 18, 2014 14:44
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Rumda posted:You are in the minority there. The series will survive losing you as a reader He may be in the minority in this thread. Don't know about the community as a whole. But agreed the series likely to survive. ^^^^nah, best was canceling. Everything else was degrees of mitigating the bad.
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Sep 18, 2014 14:44
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Butcher plotted out the 20 books+apocalypse trilogy overarching plot after getting positive feedback from his teacher on the first chapter of Dresden files. (Maybe it was more than one chapter, but it was significantly less than the full book.) He has also repeatedly and giddily said that we are now "getting to the fun parts." There is power creep, but unsurprisingly, D&D loving supernerd Jim Butcher is a huge fan of the clashing super powered entities stuff. I understand the complaint, but this has been the game plan from day one. I loved the more noir-y books from the beginning of the series too, but I think 23 books loosely arranged in an arc where Dresden saves his slice of reality at the climax is more compelling than 23 books which are all monster of the week style entries in the life of Harry Dresden, stubborn recluse wizard. If we're sharing unpopular opinions, though, I realized the other day that I really hate Butters. gently caress that guy. He is the worst.
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Sep 18, 2014 14:58
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WHAT? Butters is awesome, and Polka will never die.
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Sep 18, 2014 15:03
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Geisladisk posted:The problem is that what draws people to the Dresden Files, is Harry Dresden: If Harry Dresden is still a goon and the book has pop culture references (that are well done, and yeah I know thats a vague term) then I will still read the books.
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Sep 18, 2014 15:55
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Stories evolve caharcters grow and change, writers grow and change often in manners we don't like and/or get sometimes. All of the things you liked about the books have been in a constant state of change in the first ten books they were just not changes you disagreed with and they diddn't rock dresden out of his little wizard niche he had going. But your opinion is as vaild as anyone else's on the internet. Just don't go turning this into what the Patrick rothfuss thread turned into for about six months there.
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Sep 18, 2014 16:13
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I do miss the "Dresden as a scrappy investigator" aspect of the earlier books, but for me the Rivers of London series have taken over that bit.
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Sep 18, 2014 16:45
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Oh my. Looks like the first chapter of Foxglove Summer is up on Ben Aaronovitch's blog: http://temporarilysignificant.blogspot.co.uk/
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Sep 18, 2014 17:22
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torgeaux posted:Supernatural protagonists growing in power isn't neccesary , it's lazy. This doesn't even make sense. Of course they are going to grow in power. If you do any task, even a mundane one for 10+ years you are going to grow in ability/skill in completing that task. Calling it lazy writing just because an author doesn't lock his character in some goofy homeostasis for 20+ books just seems silly. If someone wrote a book about one mans journey to go from short order cook to master chef over the course of his lifetime would him growing in ability also be "Lazy Writing?"
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Sep 18, 2014 17:22
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You could do a workable series if you just kept the overall power scale much lower. Dresden's tossing fireballs in the first book and his enemies are ripping people's hearts out.
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Sep 18, 2014 17:29
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Rumda posted:You are in the minority there. The series will survive losing you as a reader I am so sorry for voicing my opinion of The Dresden Files in a thread dedicated to The Dresden Files. I was not aware that this was a no-criticism hugbox. It was not my intention to cause you any emotional distress. Rhymenoserous posted:This doesn't even make sense. Of course they are going to grow in power. If you do any task, even a mundane one for 10+ years you are going to grow in ability/skill in completing that task. It's not lazy to have protagonists get better at stuff, but not everyone who plays the guitar will eventually turn into a world-famous rockstar playing sold-out stadiums, which is basically what's happened to Harry. I wouldn't call it lazy, but it is rather unimaginative, considering that almost literally every supernatural fantasy protagonist has turned into a world-shaking superpower by book ten or so.
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Sep 18, 2014 20:39
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Geisladisk posted:I am so sorry for voicing my opinion of The Dresden Files in a thread dedicated to The Dresden Files. I was not aware that this was a no-criticism hugbox. It was not my intention to cause you any emotional distress. It was foreshadowed with Harry that he'd get a hell of a lot better at magic as time went on. It's been straight up said that he has a ton of magical muscle, but relatively little control over it. Add time and experience, and he has more control over that fairly massive wellspring of power that is him. That, and since he keeps throwing his hat into a lot of rings, people either try to kill/stop him, or back him- and thus his power grows in one way or another. It's not like there hasn't been a steady buildup, and the biggest jumps in power have been 1. scary and 2. not without cost.
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Sep 18, 2014 21:01
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There's no need to belittle Geisladisk's opinion. However, that is like, just his opinion, man. I'm personally thrilled that we see Harry evolve, change, and learn. There's no way I could have read 15+ books of early series Harry. He was a buffoon, at best. I do--to some extent--miss the investigation/noir trappings of the early series. However, it's never really went away 100%. Turn Coat and Ghost Story were pretty heavy on the investigation. Skin Game was a heist. So that's a pretty good percentage of recent books (three out of five) that pay homage to the noir trappings of the early series.
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Sep 18, 2014 21:13
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh my. Looks like the first chapter of Foxglove Summer is up on Ben Aaronovitch's blog: gently caress, the US release date can't get here fast enough.
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Sep 18, 2014 21:49
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Rhymenoserous posted:This doesn't even make sense. Of course they are going to grow in power. If you do any task, even a mundane one for 10+ years you are going to grow in ability/skill in completing that task. First, yes, that sentence is too broad, but also it was part of a discussion of power creep. No one is arguing for stasis. But, the growth of a cook is a good example of what is not going on here. Soul fire, hellfire, winter power, whatever the outsider superpower ends up being. He's not just becoming a more accomplished chef. He's not just taking the same ingredients in a clever way...that's exactly what I'm lamenting. Dresden now is so much more powerful than the guys from the first books who were held up as superpowers (except maybe the dragon). Power creep is a lazy replacement for nuance and good ideas. But, I take back the lazy comment (mostly) for butcher if he planned this all along. I suspect he didn't, though, but rather had the scheme, not the specifics, and the power creep has been incidental to not necessary to the overarching plot. I still like the books (mostly - ghost story was a misstep as was the Thomas centric story ), and I know what I want isn't what every reader wants. Laurell Hamilton is very popular and I hate that crap. Its the Hamiltonian elements here I dislike. There's not much sex, but butcher sexualized every female character in a way that is sad and bad for the stories. I'd rather he have more sex, frankly, than the bad objectification he does now.
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Sep 18, 2014 23:52
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The thing about Codex Alera was that it started off as a story about Tavi, the boy with no magic powers in a world where everybody had magical powers, and it ran like that for three solid books. In the last of those books, he successfully led an army of magically gifted B-rate soldiers against an army of werewolves backed by spellcasters, and he did all this while successfully hiding his lack of magic. In the fourth book he gains magical abilities and defeats the best magic-swordsman in the world in a 1v1 fight, and after that it starts to get ridiculous. That's what makes those books fail for me; the premise changes radically from book 3 to book 4 and then it becomes pokemasters versus the zerg. In contrast, Harry Dresden starts off as a relatively powerful wizard in a world where very few things are as powerful as a wizard. Sure, he doesn't have much control or finesse, but it's pretty early on in the series when he tells you that in terms of sheer magical muscle, he's in the top ~50 wizards in the world(and considering that wizards generally gain in power as they grow older, his being this powerful at such a young age makes him hugely powerful). He's never low-powered; he's the underdog merely because he's less powerful than whatever he happens to be fighting at the moment, not because he is lacking in power. This is completely different than the way it was handled in the Codex Alera. Khizan fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Sep 19, 2014 |
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Sep 19, 2014 03:42
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I'm mostly concerned about where it goes from here. We're only a little over half way through the series and Dresden is already taking on Gods. I can also kinda see where the concern over power creep comes from, though I personally enjoy the middle ground between noir Dresden solving half his problems with a revolver and demigod Dresden who stands up to the most powerful beings in existence. Nemesis Of Moles fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Sep 19, 2014 |
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Sep 19, 2014 03:53
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Dresden hasn't really successfully taken on anything particular big. He's encountering them but any big thing tends to end up with Dresden getting the poo poo beaten out of him and cowering on the floor. The biggest thing he took out was the Red King and that was through a loophole set up by the King himself.
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Sep 19, 2014 03:57
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He had all kinds of help against the Red King, though; the biggest thing he went up against on his own would probably be Shagnasty, and his performance in that fight was rated as "almost not pathetic."
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Sep 19, 2014 04:05
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:I'm mostly concerned about where it goes from here. We're only a little over half way through the series and Dresden is already taking on Gods. We're 3/4 through the series if it's going to end up being at 20 (not counting the apocalypse trilogy).
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Sep 19, 2014 05:25
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Geisladisk posted:It's not lazy to have protagonists get better at stuff, but not everyone who plays the guitar will eventually turn into a world-famous rockstar playing sold-out stadiums, which is basically what's happened to Harry. I wouldn't call it lazy, but it is rather unimaginative, considering that almost literally every supernatural fantasy protagonist has turned into a world-shaking superpower by book ten or so. I would totally read the continuing adventures of a shitkicker magical PI, his tough cop friend, and his tiny pixie sidekick. I'm just not at all sad that's not how this series goes and I don't think the author's unimaginative for telling the story he's telling, even if it does conform to lots of the fantasy genre expectations. e: Is there a Dresden-alike with not as much power creep?
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Sep 19, 2014 06:09
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I honestly think it's too early to tell. Dresden's sitting on book 15 and poo poo really didn't start escalating for him until book ~11, when he claimed Demonreach. Alex Verus, Laundry Files, and Rivers of London are all sitting at book 5. They haven't shown much power creep, but Dresden wasn't showing that much power creep in Death Masks, either.
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Sep 19, 2014 07:25
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Khizan posted:I honestly think it's too early to tell. Dresden's sitting on book 15 and poo poo really didn't start escalating for him until book ~11, when he claimed Demonreach. Alex Verus, Laundry Files, and Rivers of London are all sitting at book 5. They haven't shown much power creep, but Dresden wasn't showing that much power creep in Death Masks, either. Laundry Files is explicitly showing power creep and for good in universe reasons at that.
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Sep 19, 2014 08:28
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AlphaDog posted:e: Is there a Dresden-alike with not as much power creep? Have you read Glen Cook's "Garret P.I."? Granted, it's a medieval setting and the protagonist isn't a wizard, so I guess I can't call it a "Dresden alike". It is a P.I. noir thing with wizards and magic though. As for power creep, there is some, but the protagonist is still working as a P.I. by book 14 and still getting the poo poo kicked out of him in every book. He's just better at getting paid and making friends than Dresden.
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Sep 19, 2014 10:04
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