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It's an odd catch-22 type of situation for an 'honest' hobbyist. On one hand if purchases of recasts are made, you're not 'supporting' one aspect of the hobby as much (meaning the sales contributing to GW and any local FLGS that promotes the product through shelf space). If sales fall enough, and if GW goes under, I don't think those recasters will stick around. On the other hand, by purchasing from GW, you're validating the prices that they set and the practices they run.
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Sep 22, 2014 07:25
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One way I look at it is that I'm happy to pay for rules and books that I have will be using, because the company (GW, Wizards of the Coast or whoever) and people have updated, vetted and tested them, however I am also happy to find other models to portray the units I want to use, which means looking at Puppetswar, Kromlech, etc., plus there's ebay to help me offset the cost of the books and new models. I found an Eldar codex recently for £22 compared to its £30 retail price so of course I bought it. On the flip side I'm also OK with having PDF copies of books to have on my phone or laptop so I don't have to haul 15 pounds of books around, but it's still actually easier for me to flip through books and have bookmarks and ribbons and things in them. We gave our BA player loads of poo poo for referring to his PDF codex on his phone all the time, but with the new GK and SM codexes out he's bought them properly and will be getting the BA book as well.
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Sep 22, 2014 08:12
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Funnily enough, I am probably close to just buying a new Dark Vengeance box because I can't find a new mini rulebook on the ebay market for less than $45-50, which is below the threshold of 'gently caress it, just buy it all and part it out.' I understand why (the rulebook is the one really new thing, and the market is saturated with all the minis already) but dang if it isn't funny. I guess the takeaway is that the edition starter set is the one place where GW isn't completely butt chugging cocaine when it comes to their prices, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth to buy any product from them NIB. But dang, I wanna finally properly play 7E. (For months I've just been getting the occasional game in with people who were willing to play 6E. Mostly my brother.)
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Sep 22, 2014 08:22
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I buy from my FLGS because I like my FLGS.
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Sep 22, 2014 08:23
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JerryLee please don't give GW money or you'll make me sad and ill scrunt myself.
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Sep 22, 2014 08:24
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JerryLee posted:I guess the takeaway is that the edition starter set is the one place where GW isn't completely butt chugging cocaine when it comes to their prices, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth to buy any product from them NIB. I really do wish that GW would put out a starter set that's under $100 to compete with the other modern games and their starter sets, but it seems like they just can't do it. And after I ordered the new DE models at full retail from GW I remembered I could have gotten them for less from sites like Dark Sphere (but wouldn't have gotten free shipping so it would have evened out anyway), but eh, it's OK - if giving GW the highest profit they can possibly get for new models encourages them to release new awesome-looking models I can spare a few quid here and there. e: also, got my Space Hulk box set yesterday, holy moly it's heavy. But awesome  I finally have a copy!
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Sep 22, 2014 09:50
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Double post because hey this is just funny. These are the tickets I got for Warhammer Fest:  Packed in a 4" tall box with an air pack thing for protection! One of these is available for anyone who wants to go with me (sounds like a creepy date because it is)!
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Sep 22, 2014 11:25
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krushgroove posted:and people have updated, vetted and tested them Ahahaha
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Sep 22, 2014 11:49
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Improbable Lobster posted:I buy from my FLGS because I like my FLGS. I try to do this, but my FLGS barely stocks any GW products, offers no discounts whatsoever, and if I would like anything ordered in, it takes at least a month for it to show up. I buy stuff from them whenever I can, but it isn't always practical. I usually end up buying through online retailers, since I can get a discount, typically free shipping, and it shows up within a week. That said, I still don't buy recasts. Not out of any sense of morality, mind you, but because I don't think the discount is worth waiting for something to ship from Russia/China/wherever, and I really like the ease of assembling/painting GW plastic kits.
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Sep 22, 2014 12:53
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krushgroove posted:I really do wish that GW would put out a starter set that's under $100 to compete with the other modern games and their starter sets, but it seems like they just can't do it. I got to look at mine for a whole 2 seconds before it was bundled into the wardrobe to await christmas.
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Sep 22, 2014 12:56
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Figuring out a small Tau list with models I already have to take to my FLGS soon. Two of my crisis suits were rescues that came glued with fusion/plasma. so I'm kinda stuck with them unless I counts-as or figure out a way to get the guns off without breaking something! This isn't going to be my main list, just something I can play with until I get the rest of my models. For 1k, I was thinking: HQ: Commander w/ drone controller, fusion, plasma rifle, target lock, two marker drones Troops: 12 Fire Warriors and Devilfish w/sensor spines 12 Fire Warriors and Devilfish w/sensor spines Elites: Crisis team: three plasma/fusion/target lock shas'ui, three marker drones Stealth Team: shas'vre with marker+target lock and fusion, two shas'ui Heavy: Hammerhead w/ submunitions and disruption pod I have three more stealth suits, a few more fire warriors, and a broadside I could swap around with. Some of my fire warrios came assembled with pulse carbines, so I could potentially use them as Pathfinders. Thoughts?
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Sep 22, 2014 13:11
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Lord Twisted posted:This makes a sick sort of sense. This is really dumb.
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Sep 22, 2014 15:33
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SRM posted:I don't think I've ever seen a job offer with the word "humdinger" in it before. I'm sure they'll get somebody. The secret is that Mr. Kirby used the box of humdingers to fly off of the space station he had been trapped on for so many years and now they need a new gullible dupe.
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Sep 22, 2014 16:48
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I'm quite sure they realize this, but it likely doesn't happen for a couple of reasons. One is the business mindset of "any cut in prices means people will think our product is inferior", which is often coupled with "if you lower prices once, people will just wait until you lower them again". Both are mindsets that a lot of businesses operate under when trying to push a "premium" product, even when it has been shown in comparable industries that lowering prices and having sales are often highly beneficial, spur impulse buys, create return customers, etc. The crazy thing is, this wouldn't be as much of a problem if GW wasn't simultaneously trying to encourage people to play bigger and bigger games at higher point values. One of my friends who used to have a huge amount of Necrons and Grey Knights got into Mercs and X-Wing in a big way last year, and those are both games where you have to pay a fair amount per model, even by GW standards. The difference being, of course, is that you're never going to need more than five models in either of those games-whereas in 40K, the only army you're going to ever get away with using 5 models with is Imperial Knights, and that's gonna cost you easily an order of magnitude in cash more than other games. 40K, Mercs, and X-Wing are all very different games with different appeals, obviously, but Mercs and X-Wing can get away with high model price because of the low model count. 40K really can't, and GW's inability to understand this is really the core of their degradation over the last few years, I believe.
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Sep 22, 2014 16:51
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krushgroove posted:I really do wish that GW would put out a starter set that's under $100 to compete with the other modern games and their starter sets, but it seems like they just can't do it.
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Sep 22, 2014 16:59
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The crazy thing is, this wouldn't be as much of a problem if GW wasn't simultaneously trying to encourage people to play bigger and bigger games at higher point values. One of my friends who used to have a huge amount of Necrons and Grey Knights got into Mercs and X-Wing in a big way last year, and those are both games where you have to pay a fair amount per model, even by GW standards. The difference being, of course, is that you're never going to need more than five models in either of those games-whereas in 40K, the only army you're going to ever get away with using 5 models with is Imperial Knights, and that's gonna cost you easily an order of magnitude in cash more than other games. 40K, Mercs, and X-Wing are all very different games with different appeals, obviously, but Mercs and X-Wing can get away with high model price because of the low model count. 40K really can't, and GW's inability to understand this is really the core of their degradation over the last few years, I believe. Yeah, GW is currently in this weird contrarian mode at the moment, where they claim to want a lot of people to buy just tons of minis for these absolutely massive games...but their pricing and general business/sales practices indicate the complete opposite, in that they view their stuff as "premium" products that are only marketed to the wealthiest and most discerning of warhams. Also, there's another reason GW is heading for serious financial problems as a result of this: because they've cut their operations to the bone (one-man stores, eliminating unneeded staff, etc.), they have nowhere else to make cuts now that the core customer base has largely started to abandon their games (either due to prices finally getting too high, 7th edition 40k being rushed out the door, general dissatisfaction with the rules, or just dissatisfaction with GW overall). This is why I think GW is eventually just going to give up on their retail operations outside the UK, because at this point that's really the only place they could make financial cuts (at least, ones that would actually make sense, since their brick-and-mortar model is a complete failure when applied to anywhere except the UK).
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Sep 22, 2014 17:15
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Sep 22, 2014 17:51
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SRM posted:Assault on Black Reach was $60 when it launched in 2008, then $75 by the end of the year, and went up to $100 before 6th edition IIRC. That being said, $100 for the sheer amount of stuff you get in Dark Vengeance or what have you still makes it a good value to me. Stormclaw was a neat idea too even if it was only available for like a day and a half. I haven't actually checked the sticker prices yet but I believe DV went from $100 to $125? when they updated it for 7E. That said, they do at least throw in the limited edition chaplain by default now, I believe. It's still a pretty fine deal.
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Sep 22, 2014 17:58
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Gorgeous, let's hope they're fixing the rules to go with it, because right now it's just a shittier fatter version of the fighter.
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Sep 22, 2014 17:58
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Cream_Filling posted:This is really dumb. the "Tu Quoque" at the end is a nice humdinger.
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Sep 22, 2014 18:20
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"I love tu quoque" - Rapey Joe Stalin, 2014. Also, that Voidraven looks amazing. The paintjob's not to my taste, but the model itself is exactly what I was hoping for. A much larger Razorwing.
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Sep 22, 2014 18:30
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AbusePuppy posted:The secret is that Mr. Kirby used the box of humdingers to fly off of the space station he had been trapped on for so many years and now they need a new gullible dupe.  If that's accurate I'm really concerned if I generally like Kirby more than the replacement. 
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Sep 22, 2014 18:49
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I don't really buy recasts but I pretty much exclusively shop Ebay, Bartertown, Dakka, and other places because it's to expensive retail. Also, unless your playing at a GW store or something, just buy alternative 3rd party models, they're usually way cool.
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Sep 22, 2014 19:05
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Hollismason posted:I don't really buy recasts but I pretty much exclusively shop Ebay, Bartertown, Dakka, and other places because it's to expensive retail. This is what I do. Hollismason posted:Also, unless your playing at a GW store or something, just buy alternative 3rd party models, they're usually way cool. I don't do this but I do scratchbuild like crazy. I have this dream that one day GW won't be terrible and there will be GW tournaments again and I'll want to have a fully legit army for them. I know it is a delusion but for whatever reason I hold to it. Just believing the impossible!
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Sep 22, 2014 19:13
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They don't even make recasts of the Specialist Games stuff. Your options are third party or getting hosed on ebay.
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Sep 22, 2014 19:15
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I've only paid GW retail for maybe 1 kit and three characters. Everything else has been either online retailer or eBay/SAMart/Reddit Miniswap. I'd like to introduce my friends to this terrible hobby, but it's a very tough sell. "Hey, play this game! You need the big rule book and a codex, paints and supplies, and at least a battleforce type box to start. That comes out to nearly $300 retail before you even start playing."
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Sep 22, 2014 19:18
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Squifferific posted:I've only paid GW retail for maybe 1 kit and three characters. Everything else has been either online retailer or eBay/SAMart/Reddit Miniswap. I'd like to introduce my friends to this terrible hobby, but it's a very tough sell. "Hey, play this game! You need the big rule book and a codex, paints and supplies, and at least a battleforce type box to start. That comes out to nearly $300 retail before you even start playing." I've gotten friends into 40k by sharing my models. I have both Nids and IG, so I can play matches with friends that don't have anything. I've also let them try out painting models. If you have good friends you can get started without investing too much. It's how i got started. At the very least it lets you know if you like it or not.
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Sep 22, 2014 19:33
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Never actually bought anything from the GW webstore and due to the fact there are only two GW stores in the entirety of Sweden in cities I rarely visit means I rarely actually buy stuff from them directly and just go via other retailers. My auction luck is more often than not horrible or I'm too much of a cheapskate to push myself beyond a set limit. Haven't really pushed anyone into the hobby as well as the limited circle of real life friends I have already are playing or have played at some point.
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Sep 22, 2014 19:51
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Sharing models is how I've gotten friends into gaming ever since I was a kid. It helped having a ton of minis around the house since I got born into the hobby though. I can count the amount of times I've paid market price for GW products on one hand, a pot of paint here and there notwithstanding. The only time I've ever ordered from GW directly was when they were giving away that free mini with a $100 purchase, so I just got a bunch of direct-exclusive stuff I would've had a hard time finding otherwise. Usually it's Warstore for that sweet 20% off, eBay, SA-mart, or the Dakka swap shop. Considering I collect so much old poo poo, I pretty much have to go those approaches. I also used to get 20% off at my old FLGS, but I'm in a different part of town and their selection is pretty poor.
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Sep 22, 2014 19:52
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Where would the prices have to be for people to be happy? Is there a magic price point that would make us collectively moist?
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Sep 22, 2014 20:02
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It doesn't necessarily matter what the individual models cost, but a starting force for an army for £30, including at least quick-start rules and a full size army with some options to swap about for no more than £100-150 is what the rest of the industry seems to have settled into.
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Sep 22, 2014 20:08
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Squifferific posted:Where would the prices have to be for people to be happy? Is there a magic price point that would make us collectively moist? The problem with warhammer prices is rarely that individual models are overpriced, but rather that armies require you to buy way too many boxes/blisters to put together. This ties into how GW has been making games larger and points costs lower over time to, in part, encourage people to spend more money.
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Sep 22, 2014 20:11
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I spend way less on 40k now than I used to spend on clothes, golfing, or partying, and model for model it isn't really any more expensive than the other wargames I enjoy, so I just keep it in the budget and don't worry about it. I spend four to five times as much every month on my car as I do on Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Sep 22, 2014 |
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Sep 22, 2014 20:14
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S.J. posted:The problem with warhammer prices is rarely that individual models are overpriced, but rather that armies require you to buy way too many boxes/blisters to put together. This ties into how GW has been making games larger and points costs lower over time to, in part, encourage people to spend more money. My biggest problem with GW's prices is that the rulebooks and supplements, especially digital ones, are outrageously costed considering quality, utility, and speed of obsolescence.
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Sep 22, 2014 20:16
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Yeah - quick start rules that are free are a big part of getting people into gaming nowadays. Look at what the upstarts are doing - they (or at least their fans) encourage simple proxy models for the game itself while using the rules available. GW is no upstart, but rather the lumbering behemoth, but everyone acknowledges they're losing ground to loads of smaller, faster-moving companies. I think a starter force for a handful of armies (3 SM chapters, Eldar, Chaos and Daemons maybe) from £30-50 with the rules for the models included in that force, would be awesome! Have a small rules pack with the most basic rules and a handout (which can be regularly updated) can be included in the box to suggest additional model sets (which have a single page of basic rules), plus another handout to say 'hey, now buy the regular rule book here' and 'get the advanced rules for your army in the codex'. Of course this is all wishlisting really but it would be nice to see GW turn things around. As far as paying retail prices, again I don't mind because it means I can pop into Warhammer World pretty much whenever I want. If I lived further away I'd be way more inclined to get proxy stuff, and probably 75% of the stuff I have is used ebay rescue stuff anyway. The way GW stops that is to update models now and then, which they're doing already. I am planning to get the Voidraven Bomber just because but I'll definitely get it from Dark Sphere (depending on the shipping costs) rather than pay full whack.
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Sep 22, 2014 20:17
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:"I love tu quoque" - Rapey Joe Stalin, 2014. I was hoping for something more than just a much larger razorwing. It's cool, but I'm left nonplussed. Hopefully clearer shots of the nose will change my opinion.
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Sep 22, 2014 20:20
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PeterWeller posted:I was hoping for something more than just a much larger razorwing. It's cool, but I'm left nonplussed. Hopefully clearer shots of the nose will change my opinion. Yeah, same here. The one thing I don't absolutely love about Dark Eldar models is how things like the Razorwing and the Venom were apparently designed by Batman. And I guess wracks look retarded, but anyway. With the Venom alot is salvaged by having the riders on the wings, that completely changes the feel of the model from Batman to Dark Eldar. The Razorwing doesn't have that, it's just a bigger Venom with the Dark Eldar sucked out. It's all Batman. The Voidraven is now looks to turn out to be Batman 2: The Electric Return of the Jokerloo. I know some people actually specifically want the Batman look from Dark Eldar, probably the same people who convert their wing riders to on-foot models. Different strokes I guess.
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Sep 22, 2014 20:28
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I've seen a couple of attempts at One page 40k rules as well as converting Bolt Action rules for 40k. No idea how they play though as I don't actively play anymore for various reasons. Which is kind of a shame as I'd love to try those rules out and see how they work. Although now that I think about it, would Forgeworld count as directly off GW or not? I did order a LR turret from them last year. Or are just counting that as a separate entity in this case?
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Sep 22, 2014 20:31
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moths posted:They don't even make recasts of the Specialist Games stuff. Your options are third party or getting hosed on ebay. That's not 100% true krushgroove posted:Look at what the upstarts are doing - they (or at least their fans) encourage simple proxy models for the game itself while using the rules available. Mantic even has en entire army in Kings of War, Kingdoms of Men, specifically dedicated to proxies that they make no minis for, only an army list. Spartan charges a reasonable $35 or so for their rulebooks for FSA, Planetsrike, DW and DL, and then fleet/army lists are free pdfs. So much competition, there's just no way you're going to get any attention if you don't throw up a free version of the rules for people to try before they buy. The added cost of each codex/army book on top of that is a whole other issue. Cooked Auto posted:Although now that I think about it, would Forgeworld count as directly off GW or not? I did order a LR turret from them last year. Or are just counting that as a separate entity in this case? Separate entity to a degree, but the same bottom line and the same overlords if I'm not mistaken. Forgeworld is like the Lockheed Martin Skunkworks, all the best and brightest people in the company off in their own room making all the coolest poo poo and wildest rules. The Dimachaeron is the F-35 in this analogy. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Sep 22, 2014 |
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Sep 22, 2014 20:31
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NTRabbit posted:Separate entity to a degree, but the same bottom line and the same overlords if I'm not mistaken. Forgeworld is like the Lockheed Martin Skunkworks, all the best and brightest people in the company off in their own room making all the coolest poo poo and wildest rules. The Dimachaeron is the F-35 in this analogy. Well I meant more in the discussion on if you've bought directly of GW or not in this case but in general that analogy works.
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Sep 22, 2014 20:47
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