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CoD is a game where you can actually kill someone that's better than you by catching them unaware. You really can't do this in an arena shooter. You will have absolutely no chance. This is not a welcome way to start a game.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:48
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Panzeh posted:Mobas are not hard to play at a low level at all. In fact they're way more approachable than the 1v1 RTS games they supplanted. They're also free to play. Quake 3 is also not hard to play at a low level, in the sense that you will get murdered to poo poo by people who play at a slightly less low level, but you will understand why you are getting murdered, and what you need to improve.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:49
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You guys complain for several pages about how quake is inaccessible then turn around and claim DOTA is easy to learn.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:49
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Panzeh posted:CoD is a game where you can actually kill someone that's better than you by catching them unaware. You really can't do this in an arena shooter. You will have absolutely no chance. This is not a welcome way to start a game. You could say the same thing about chess and soccer. COD is a shallow game. Quake 3 is not. Chess is not a bad game because a newbie can't beat a grand master. The problem is matchmaking.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:51
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Amethyst posted:You guys complain for several pages about how quake is inaccessible then turn around and claim DOTA is easy to learn. Quake is super easy guys, now let me show you my trick jumps and how you're going to walk out there and lose 20-0 to anyone on a duel server. What the gently caress are you going to learn against someone who seems never to lose health because they know how to just dominate all the items and lock you out?
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Sep 23, 2014 03:51
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Panzeh posted:Quake is super easy guys, now let me show you my trick jumps and how you're going to walk out there and lose 20-0 to anyone on a duel server. What the gently caress are you going to learn against someone who seems never to lose health because they know how to just dominate all the items and lock you out? Wow! I can't believe it's hard to play this game against expert players! Must be a bad game.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:51
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Games would be better if we just killed everyone who is better at them than me.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:52
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Amethyst posted:You could say the same thing about chess and soccer. COD is a shallow game. Quake 3 is not. The better analogy is that the newbie wouldn't even be able to take a piece. I'm not saying Quake is a bad game for having its skill ceiling but saying it's super intuitive is one of the most ridiculous things i've seen.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:56
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A game where an extremely new player can very quickly start doing well is either really shallow, or really random, which are probably bad things for an arena shooter to be.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:56
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Fag Boy Jim posted:A game where an extremely new player can very quickly start doing well is either really shallow, or really random, which are probably bad things for an arena shooter to be. I'm not arguing with that, more the idea that arena shooters are intuitive at all.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:57
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Panzeh posted:The better analogy is that the newbie wouldn't even be able to take a piece. I'm not saying Quake is a bad game for having its skill ceiling but saying it's super intuitive is one of the most ridiculous things i've seen. You're wrong. Move with wasd, jump with space, aim with the mouse. That's it. You've learned basic quake.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:58
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DooM 2 deathmatch forever acquire ssg, kill fools
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Sep 23, 2014 03:59
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Panzeh posted:I'm not arguing with that, more the idea that arena shooters are intuitive at all. The basic mechanics, and lower-level play are extremely intuitive to anyone who has ever played an FPS. It speaks a lot to the game's good design that those extremely basic mechanics are the building blocks to much deeper, more complex strategy in high-level play, but that's not something you can reasonably hold against the game.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:59
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Amethyst posted:You're wrong. Move with wasd, jump with space, aim with the mouse. That's it. You've learned basic quake. If you put it like that CoD is even easier because you almost never have to jump, just move and aim. You've learned basic CoD.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:59
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I mean, poo poo, even basic map control is probably something that someone new would intuit within a few sessions. It doesn't take a lot of brainpower to figure out that the Quad Damage is good, and you want to be near it when it spawns. Pulling that off against players who want to do the same thing is difficult, but that's part of getting good.
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Sep 23, 2014 04:02
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Panzeh posted:If you put it like that CoD is even easier because you almost never have to jump, just move and aim. You've learned basic CoD. Nope. You can't hit anything in cod without scoping in. That's already one other thing to learn. You need to learn about the three separate stances if you have any hope of a positive K:D ratio.k What are those tags enemies drop and I'm picking up? Oh don't worry about that for now that's how you earn xp. What's xp? What's a perk? In quake, you spend a long time learning how to improve on the core movement mechanics. There are no messy abstractions to learn, just muscle memory and the guns. Easy to learn, hard to master. COD is more "accessible" not because it's a cleaner design. It's more "accessible" because most of the "mechanics" are illusory cruft. The core game is stripped down, shallow, and dull. Hard to learn, easy to master. "Accessible" shouldn't mean that it's easier to beat expert players.
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Sep 23, 2014 04:04
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I don't play Quake at a high level, but the basics of the game are not some secret David Sirlin Yomi bullshit. CoD gets more mileage out of its marketing budget, a style of play suited to console control schemes, and a slick schlocky singleplayer than its accessibility. CS is hard as heck too and it's still huge.
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Sep 23, 2014 04:15
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my bony fealty posted:DooM 2 deathmatch forever Doom 2 had the best DM ever. As long as there was a SSG spawning somewhere on the map, everyone was competing for who could tokyo drift around corners and slamfuck instakill people face-to-face the fastest. Even armor didn't help, because it'd all vanish in a single shot and by the time your screen wipes off its boisterous red pain smear, you get berserk fisted and gibbed across the room. It's like a Spanish bullfight and everyone's the bull.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:13
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What the gently caress are you talking about, I played CoD MW2 to 50 blind firing a p90, you need literally no skill or understanding.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:15
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Elliotw2 posted:What the gently caress are you talking about, I played CoD MW2 to 50 blind firing a p90, you need literally no skill or understanding. Read the post again. COD has a low skill ceiling, as I explained, but it is not intuitive for people new to FPS games, like some were claiming.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:19
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Amethyst posted:Nope. Wish you would have just made this post in the first place instead of all those other passive-aggressive posts.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:22
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Wish you would have just made this post in the first place instead of all those other passive-aggressive posts. I'm glad you made this post, friend.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:24
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Wish you would have just made this post in the first place instead of all those other passive-aggressive posts. That's not very goony, though.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:31
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Please, no tone policing.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:33
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I'm not sure how Amethyst came to the conclusion that bunny hopping, strafe jumping and their ilk are more intuitive to new FPS players than holding down the other trigger or mouse button, but I'm sure he'll spend the next five pages posting about it.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:33
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The Kins posted:I'm not sure how Amethyst came to the conclusion that bunny hopping, strafe jumping and their ilk are more intuitive to new FPS players than holding down the other trigger or mouse button, but I'm sure he'll spend the next five pages posting about it. He thinks you can't hit people in call of duty without iron-sighting so he doesn't know poo poo about either game don't worry.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:34
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The Kins posted:I'm not sure how Amethyst came to the conclusion that bunny hopping, strafe jumping and their ilk are more intuitive to new FPS players than holding down the other trigger or mouse button, but I'm sure he'll spend the next five pages posting about it. I didn't say that. You guys are bad at reading. The point I've made, repeatedly, is that bunny hopping, strafe jumping, and their ilk are advanced techniques used by high skill players. They should not be removed because new players can't do them. You guys are seeing one problem - the lack of matchmaking in online play, and misconstruing it to the point where you want to reduce game design down to a shallow nub.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:36
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Matchmaking is actually cool and nice when it works, but PC gamers are so opposed to match making it's not funny at all. Quake Live does a good job though, and I hope UT4 will have an equally good or better matchmaking scheme.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:37
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This thread is extremely cool because of the active contempt of people who are interested in retro FPSes in any sort of non-superficial way.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:39
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Also I think i've been quite polite considering a few pages back you guys were dog piling quake players and calling them insufferable shitheels and other goony insults.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:40
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Amethyst posted:Read the post again. COD has a low skill ceiling, as I explained, but it is not intuitive for people new to FPS games, like some were claiming. I think you've been misunderstanding me the entire time. I wasn't talking about people new to FPS games in general, I was talking about gamers new to that particular game. The entire genre of FPS has not been friendly to new gamers ever since they got more complex than Doom, and if I was picking up a FPS for the first time, I would be so completely overwhelmed regardless of what game I was playing. Quake 3 is fifteen years old, and FPSes aren't made that way anymore. And it's not because the style is bad, because those games are great. But the gameplay conventions in COD games (like iron sights and stand/crouch/prone) are pretty standard for the genre now; whether or not you're playing COD or Battlefield or Human Revolution, the idea of variable recoil is consistently executed and easy to follow if you've played other recent games. And the style of gameplay is very hyperactive and twitch-oriented, so while superior players still consistently win, at least the scrubs can score a kill. Like, the point that I was getting at is that most people do not like being completely shut out because most people don't play games as serious competition (otherwise people would still be playing Starcraft 2), and that's exactly what happens in most arena shooters when there's a disparity in skill. I wasn't really trying to encourage an old man rant about how there's more skill in Quake, because that's pretty obviously the case. I like arena shooters and I want them to succeed, but trying to emulate Quake 3 or UT99 is not going to make serious money anymore.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:42
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Elliotw2 posted:Matchmaking is actually cool and nice when it works, but PC gamers are so opposed to match making it's not funny at all. Quake Live does a good job though, and I hope UT4 will have an equally good or better matchmaking scheme. The top three games on steam playerbase-wise all have matchmaking as an option, with CS:GO and Dota2 being primarily matchmaking-based. PC gamers aren't opposed to matchmaking at all, they hate peer-to-peer multiplayer setups, and rightly so because those have ruined many a promising multiplayer game. Matchmaking and dedicated servers are not mutually exclusive, they can and do happily co-exist to the benefit of everyone involved.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:42
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I think automatic bunnyhopping is a good thing, personally. It's really nice in Warsow. You still have to do proper turns and avoid ramming things, but you don't have to hammer space in the correct rhythm constantly.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:42
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Geight posted:PC gamers aren't opposed to matchmaking at all, they hate peer-to-peer multiplayer setups, and rightly so because those have ruined many a promising multiplayer game. Super Monday Night Combat 
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Sep 23, 2014 05:44
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Super Monday Night Combat I love how every time I hear about SMNC it finds a new and exciting way to disappoint me, starting with the announcement that Super Monday Night Combat was being developed. This thread has enough bile in it already so I won't get into it, but gently caress that game and double-gently caress the dudes who made it. MNC ruled. SO UH how bout that BTSX2 guys. I got to map4 and it seems pretty nutso and I hear some people don't like it so I'm excited to see what it's got!! Geight fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 05:46
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MONKET posted:Doom 2 had the best DM ever. As long as there was a SSG spawning somewhere on the map, everyone was competing for who could tokyo drift around corners and slamfuck instakill people face-to-face the fastest. Even armor didn't help, because it'd all vanish in a single shot and by the time your screen wipes off its boisterous red pain smear, you get berserk fisted and gibbed across the room. It's like a Spanish bullfight and everyone's the bull. I prefer Doom 1 DM because you have more options. The shotgun, chaingun, and rocket launcher are all viable options in certain situations at certain ranges, while the SSG dominates everything in Doom 2. It's a more cerebral experience.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:48
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RyokoTK posted:but trying to emulate Quake 3 or UT99 is not going to make serious money anymore. Well, first, you don't really know that. Like, back when DOTA was some weird thing that I mainly knew for inspiring really bad posts on forums, there's no way in hell I would have predicted that it'd be one of the biggest multiplayer genres in 2014. And even then, who cares? If it's a niche genre, then it's a niche genre, and niche genres can grow, if you give it a chance. I find the whole free-market-based game design arguments really bizarre, I don't know why they've become so prevalent recently.
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Sep 23, 2014 05:48
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People like the Toxikk developers apparently looked at the market and said, "you know what the problem is? Too many FPSes are like Call of Duty. They should be more like UT99!" Which is obviously an appealing attitude to us in the Early FPS Megathread, but clearly that's not working out for the genre in general. I want to see arena FPSes (and FPSes in general) expand and change in the 21st century, because the genre is loving stagnant as all hell, but that's not going to happen when the new "old-school FPS that's nothing like call of dookie" attracts only the same tiny niche of gamers as the last one. I am 100% for developers making the game they want to make. But I'm also very much interested in the Next Big Thing, and the way things stand, arena shooters are not it. e: I guess Toxikk is more like, uh, UT2k4. RyokoTK fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 06:17
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Shut up blue stymie
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Sep 23, 2014 06:17
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Panzeh posted:CoD is a game where you can actually kill someone that's better than you by catching them unaware. You really can't do this in an arena shooter. You will have absolutely no chance. This is not a welcome way to start a game. UT2004's spider mines, getting in close with a shotgun in Q3, lucky railgun shots in the same game, and some idiot charging with a P90 and getting lucky in CS beg to differ.  Anyway, Demonsteele is shaping up to be the love child of the 2013 Shadow Warrior reboot, Devil May Cry, and, uh, that one arcade game where you swung a katana and it picked up your motions exactly.
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Sep 23, 2014 06:18
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