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One of the GB games has an auto-charge toggle as well as a rapid-fire option; it's a wonder they don't offer those things as standard (or easily acquirable upgrades).
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Sep 24, 2014 05:34
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Lmao I'm Brazilian and I read that comic when I was like twelve and was amazed at how it was borderline hentai. Also robot cangaceiros were amazingly ridiculous and how the author kept ranting about MANGÁ NACIONAL. I seriously want someone to make a fangame based on it just because it's so fuckin' weird. It's based on the cartoon, but it's the bad future and Dr. Light has been dead for years and so have most humans. But Kalinka is there (although I guess you could say she is now an adult and that was the passage of time) And so is X, Zero, Bass, and Protoman. All of them plus Mega Man and Roll call each other siblings (implying Light made ALL of them?), but X still wants to gently caress Roll anyway. All of them potentially are double crossing traitors, or maybe secretly triple crossing non traitors. Wily is also alive and is now a buff robot maybe?? The guy who kidnapped the human child Roll was made from is also still alive. There is another (presumably) human villain going around ripping out hearts to...summon aliens? Or something? And maybe the whole time they were building a computer for the aliens, which is Roll? And then it ends on a cliffhanger and you'll never know! Also, you get to see retired X sitting around wearing a bath robe and slippers over his armor. And none of that even touches on the Princess "plotline". 10/10 would read again.
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Sep 24, 2014 05:41
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BlitzBlast posted:I just wish the charge hum wasn't obnoxiously blaring. Just do what BN did, make a sound while it charges, play a noise when the charge is done, then just leave the colored orb there with no sound. No BTS BTS BTS BTS BTS BTS BTS drowning out the nice music. The charge hum in the SNES X games is goddamn beautiful. PaletteSwappedNinja posted:One of the GB games has an auto-charge toggle as well as a rapid-fire option; it's a wonder they don't offer those things as standard (or easily acquirable upgrades). That's all the MMX games from 5 onwards, including both Xtremes.
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Sep 24, 2014 11:07
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:One of the GB games has an auto-charge toggle as well as a rapid-fire option; it's a wonder they don't offer those things as standard (or easily acquirable upgrades). I know the PS1 ports on the PSN had a dedicated rapid-fire button and had an option for auto-charging too, so I guess they just pretended that those quality-of-life improvements didn't exist along with shoulder-buttons to switch weapons in MM9. Anyway, the charge shot is an overpowered crutch weapon, but I don't think that it inherently ruins gameplay balance, and actually makes the game more fun for less skilled players (me) who want to experiment with boss weapons, which is pretty hard in some games when some bosses like Shadow Man are nearly impossible to buster duel and a lot of others are a bitch with finite lives. Mega Man 4 solves the problem by making every Robot Master weapon either utility or almost, if not as strong as the charge shot only without having to actually charge up. I've always thought a good compromise would be turning the Charge Shot into a buyable weapon that uses ammo, so it can help less skilled players while not encouraging weapon energy hoarding.
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Sep 24, 2014 11:08
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Screaming Idiot posted:Actually, wasn't Inafune suggesting that Japan should start copying Western gaming styles, claiming that they could do them better? I remember reading his rant and feeling like it came off as slightly xenophobic, but I might be misremembering. Nope, you must have misread that article. Inafune was of the "we need to innovate or die" variety.
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Sep 24, 2014 11:27
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Mordaedil posted:Nope, you must have misread that article. Inafune was of the "we need to innovate or die" variety. It was this. Japanese game companies wanted some of that sweet Call of Duty money and ended up falling flat on their faces trying to get it.
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Sep 24, 2014 11:41
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I sincerely challenge the notion that the charge shot is always better than pellets. The most obvious downside of charging is that it takes time, and that is something you don't always have. Enemies that only take 1 hit to kill but are numerous and/or move quickly are the prime example of where charging up is a bad idea, you will get swarmed while charging up and even the promise of cutting through more than one enemy doesn't really help. I've seen multiple speedruns where charge is not used at all to deal with huge enemies, because things without invincibility frames will inevitably die quicker to pellets than to two charge shots, even with a mediocre trigger finger. Charge shot usually does three damage. If enemies have four shots worth of health, the best way to deal with them is one charge, one normal shot. A lot of enemies from MM4 onwards have 4 health. Charge adds gameplay flow. You can pre-charge on a pure platforming stretch to be ready for enemies coming up, which you can then cut through with one blast and keep going. You can have a charge ready for the aforementioned 4-health fattie, unload, shoot once again and go on with your life. Especially the enemy-based arguments mean that yes, you have to design the game around the charge. But it's not like this is impossible or makes the game worse somehow. I would argue that MM1-3 and MM4-6 really are not that obviously different in enemy setups, designs and positions just because there is a charge now suddenly. On special weapons: the biggest issue is the switching time. Otherwise, even in MM5, there is a weapon that is superiour to the charge in pretty much every situation. Sometimes just with the same argument for buster spamming: big enemies with like 8 health die very quickly to rapid-fire Napalm Bombs, for instance, something neither pellets nor charge can provide. It's, again, an efficiency thing. Also, buster shoots only forwards. It can't pierce shields. It doesn't home. Weapons have plenty of potential to be equally good as the buster, charged or not, but I fully agree that going into the menu to switch is cumbersome and should be abolished in favor of a quick-select. Even cycling through is too annoying. MMZero had the right idea by drastically reducing the number of weapons and making two available at the same time.
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Sep 24, 2014 12:12
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Simply Simon posted:I sincerely challenge the notion that the charge shot is always better than pellets. The most obvious downside of charging is that it takes time, and that is something you don't always have. Enemies that only take 1 hit to kill but are numerous and/or move quickly are the prime example of where charging up is a bad idea, you will get swarmed while charging up and even the promise of cutting through more than one enemy doesn't really help. I've seen multiple speedruns where charge is not used at all to deal with huge enemies, because things without invincibility frames will inevitably die quicker to pellets than to two charge shots, even with a mediocre trigger finger. Modern controllers offer aditional options. The right stick, for instance, could control a radial weapons menu without interrupting gameplay.
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Sep 24, 2014 12:50
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I still wonder why the X-series never used the X-button for anything.
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Sep 24, 2014 13:13
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DoctorWhat posted:Modern controllers offer aditional options. The right stick, for instance, could control a radial weapons menu without interrupting gameplay.
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Sep 24, 2014 13:18
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DoctorWhat posted:Modern controllers offer aditional options. The right stick, for instance, could control a radial weapons menu without interrupting gameplay. The later X games having a button for the buster, and a different button for a special weapon is a nice move too, and it increases the options for utility weapons since you're not completely helpless when one is equipped
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Sep 24, 2014 14:53
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Simply Simon posted:I sincerely challenge the notion that the charge shot is always better than pellets. The most obvious downside of charging is that it takes time, and that is something you don't always have. Enemies that only take 1 hit to kill but are numerous and/or move quickly are the prime example of where charging up is a bad idea, you will get swarmed while charging up and even the promise of cutting through more than one enemy doesn't really help. I've seen multiple speedruns where charge is not used at all to deal with huge enemies, because things without invincibility frames will inevitably die quicker to pellets than to two charge shots, even with a mediocre trigger finger. The thing is though: You do almost always have time. The charge shot does not take long and enemies are staggered often enough that you pretty much always have time to recharge. Especially if you count multiple charge levels where hitting level 2 takes almost no time at all. Like, one big example here: If the charge buster charged naturally, without you hitting any buttons at all, would that be considered a negative? Is there every a situation where you couldn't want to be charging a shot, even if you have to unleash it early? I'm sure there are niche examples but they're pretty drat rare and usually involve crappy X-series charge busters with weird gimmicks The latter example is the 'famine' part of the feast and famine charge buster gameplay in Mega Man. If the charge buster is not actually more damaging or effective than a regular buster then why have it exist? In that case it adds nothing to the gameplay but can be a newbie trap where someone unfamiliar with the game is using a shittier weapon just because it looks bigger. Simply Simon posted:Charge shot usually does three damage. If enemies have four shots worth of health, the best way to deal with them is one charge, one normal shot. A lot of enemies from MM4 onwards have 4 health. This is part of why it is bad design though. It forces them to bloat HP numbers to compensate for it. You say they can design around it but not why they should. Yes, they can design around the charge shot but what does it do except force the player to hold the attack button doing when moving around at all times? Simply Simon posted:On special weapons: the biggest issue is the switching time. In the games that has it it literally takes less time to cycle to a weapon than it does to charge a buster shot. You can make some arguments about the menu being slower but you don't need to swap for every single situation, especially in games that have a really solid high-ammo weapon. senae posted:The later X games having a button for the buster, and a different button for a special weapon is a nice move too, and it increases the options for utility weapons since you're not completely helpless when one is equipped This is also a generally good thing, yeah. The buster really doesn't need to be replaced by a special weapon on any modern console. (And one of MM9's dumb game design flaws was not having a cycle-through-weapons option in an attempt to be accurate to the original, something MM10 fixed at least.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 15:40
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Stink Terios posted:Nonono, that's Mighty Gunvolt, the generic 8-bit-esque crossover game that comes free with Gunvolt. You're not missing much. DoctorWhat posted:HOLY poo poo Since that thread was linked over the unwinnable Bass fight, I think today's update was relevant It didn't actually happen. Twas all for boners.
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Sep 27, 2014 20:48
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It was a really amazing troll though. 
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Sep 27, 2014 22:30
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So I got Shovel Knight, and I have to admit that I'm really impressed. It has a lot of similarities to Megaman, but I can also pick out the flavor of other games inside too -- everything from Mario 3 to Castlevania. My only gripes come from the graphics -- which, hey, it was done by an indie developer, I'll be more than happy to cut them some slack -- and the music, which would actually be amazing if it wasn't rendered in chiptunes. Shovel Knight would probably be my favorite game right now if it didn't look and sound like something from the late 80's. Call me shallow, but I think that graphics and sound are nearly as important to a game as the gameplay itself, and appeals to nostalgia do nothing to to tickle my fancy; if I want to be reminded of a game I loved in the past, then I'll probably just play that game instead of drop money on a product that tries to emulate it. EDIT: Gah, just realized how negative I came off. Even though the game looks and sounds mediocre, it plays like a dream, even on my laptop keyboard. It's easily one of the best games I've played all year, and if they came out with a sequel I'd jump all over it. Hell, if the sequel actually looked like something made in this decade I'd not only buy it, I'd donate to the Kickstarter as well! Screaming Idiot fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Sep 28, 2014 |
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Sep 28, 2014 23:15
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Thing is 8-bit graphics and music aren't just pandering to nostalgia, they are a valid artistic choice. Whereas they may grate you, some people really appreciate it. It's true that most games that use this style do it as a crutch, but on Shovel Knight it was a calculated and well though move. In other words, it's not something that can objectively construed as good or bad, but deserves respect for being well done.
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Sep 28, 2014 23:36
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Harping on the retro-style aspects of Shovel Knight when that's LITERALLY THE POINT is what makes you Screaming Idiot.
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Sep 28, 2014 23:37
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Great Joe posted:Why do people reply to Screaming Idiot?
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Sep 28, 2014 23:50
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This is true
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Sep 28, 2014 23:51
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Hey, let's be fair, he's been improving.
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Sep 29, 2014 00:06
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Great Joe posted:blablabla screaming idiot blablabla Captain Invictus posted:Harping on the retro-style aspects of Shovel Knight when that's LITERALLY THE POINT is what makes you Screaming Idiot. Do you guys just sit there and seethe over this? Do you rock back and forth in your computer chairs, arms crossed, brows furrowed, teeth grinding, muttering to yourselves "Screaming Idiot doesn't like what I like, how dare he, how dare he? Perhaps -- just perhaps! -- I could... shame him? Perhaps I could mention his username in a derogatory manner...? Yes. Yes! So clever, so unique, so original!" So you post. Not about Megaman games, not about Megaman-like games, not even about games period, but about me. Because god dammit, someone is wrong on the internet, and as long as you draw breath you will not let this injustice stand! I prefer modern games over older ones. I like certain Megaman games over others. I don't like the oldschool aesthetic. Why do you sound so angry about this? EDIT: Hey, just so I don't come across as an rear end in a top hat, I didn't mean this as a seriouspost. I just wanted to poke a little fun at myself. 
Screaming Idiot fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 00:33
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The irony in that post is amazing. Like I don't even care about this whole argument, just step back and scroll through your posts man.
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Sep 29, 2014 00:35
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Screaming Idiot posted:Do you guys just sit there and seethe over this? Do you rock back and forth in your computer chairs, arms crossed, brows furrowed, teeth grinding, muttering to yourselves "Screaming Idiot doesn't like what I like, how dare he, how dare he? Perhaps -- just perhaps! -- I could... shame him? Perhaps I could mention his username in a derogatory manner...? Yes. Yes! So clever, so unique, so original!" Sizzling Circuits! I want to put this in a frame and hang it on my wall!
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Sep 29, 2014 00:40
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SI, the reason folks are disagreeing with you on this, at least in part, is because 8-bit graphics aren't a purely aesthetic choice, but also a game design one. Low-fi visuals make gameplay information easier to parse for the player, and frequently enable greater complexity of design in other parts of the game setting while minimizing communication "noise". It's more than a matter of taste, and treating it as such is pretty silly. vvvvv Yeah, although there might be some things I could maybe quibble with (maybe), the spritework in Shovel Knight is really, really well done. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 00:41
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Discendo Vox posted:SI, the reason folks are disagreeing with you on this, at least in part, is because 8-bit graphics aren't a purely aesthetic choice, but also a game design one. Low-fi visuals make gameplay information easier to parse for the player, and frequently enable greater complexity of design in other parts of the game setting while minimizing communication "noise". It's more than a matter of taste, and treating it as such is pretty silly. It's also worth noting that not all 8-bit graphics are created equal. Shovel Knight's artwork is not done in 30 seconds by a lazy developer to avoid hiring artists. It actually involves a lot of time and effort and has a lot of nice detail work which you don't get in low-effort 8-bit artwork. Treating it as if it is lazy or low-effort or just banking on nostalgia devalues the actual time, effort and work put by the developers into making the game look like it does.
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Sep 29, 2014 00:43
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For real, if you're sick of indie platformers with retro graphics, there are hundreds of games where it'd be appropriate to complain about. Shovel Knight is probably the only retro based indie platformer I've ever heard of where they actually went out of their way to emulate the hardware limitations that resulted in the style in the first place, instead of just MS Painting up some sprites. Mostly though that overeaction was hilarious.
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Sep 29, 2014 00:48
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Oh, I'm not saying Shovel Knight's 8-bit style is bad -- it's gorgeously designed for an 8-bit game, I just don't like the general aesthetic. I don't regret my purchase in the least and, as I said before, would buy any sequels that came out. Also, I'm glad people thought my post was funny! I'm having a bad day today so I just wanna make some people laugh.  Discendo Vox posted:SI, the reason folks are disagreeing with you on this, at least in part, is because 8-bit graphics aren't a purely aesthetic choice, but also a game design one. Low-fi visuals make gameplay information easier to parse for the player, and frequently enable greater complexity of design in other parts of the game setting while minimizing communication "noise". It's more than a matter of taste, and treating it as such is pretty silly. Hey, it's great that people disagree with me! I may be an opinionated windbag, but I'm not gonna jump on people for not sharing my inclinations. I'd just like to see more 16/32 bit style games is all. I really liked Super Paper Mario, for example -- it had really nice, stylized graphics and solid RPG/platform gameplay. I'd love to see a Megaman game done in a similar style, with well-drawn 2d sprites in a simplistic 3D background. Screaming Idiot fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 00:55
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Wanna know why people like Mega Man in 8bit instead of anything higher? Play Mega Man 7 or 8. The most obvious thing is that simpler graphics means less time between button press and action happening. You play a modern game and since everything looks "real", everything has to animate "real", and thus almost every action your character can take will require up to multiple seconds of time between button press and thing happening. 8 bit graphics, no one cares, press button poo poo happens. 7 and 8 also had issues with the sprites being huge now, so the screens had less information possibility and so on I'm sure someone else can explain this better. My point is that yes, NES era graphics can have a direct and appreciable gameplay purpose.
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Sep 29, 2014 04:46
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The obvious counterpoint to that is Mega Man X1.
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Sep 29, 2014 04:50
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I never got that feeling with Mega Man 7. The game seems designed with the larger sprites in mind to some degree I feel.
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Sep 29, 2014 04:50
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I actually like megaman 8 and its graphics style.(which was also used in megaman and bass). the style was very colorful, levels felt big,everything's sprites were well animated and it never felt like I had trouble determining when a platform started and ended when jumping between them. x4-6 however look like garbage though.
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Sep 29, 2014 05:02
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Tengames posted:x4-6 however look like garbage though. Let's not say things we can't take back.
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Sep 29, 2014 05:08
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Just played through x4 tonight for the first time in a decade. Quite fun. Final boss was a lot of fun, and I don't think any bosses were totally cheesed. Better game than I remember too. On to x4 as zero and x5.
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Sep 29, 2014 05:08
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I don't think X4-X6 look bad but they use a really weird 3D perspective for the floors which can make the platforming more annoying than it should be sometimes.
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Sep 29, 2014 05:10
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kefkafloyd posted:The obvious counterpoint to that is Mega Man X1. Or, if he is talking about modern games in general, another counterpoint would be metal gear rising. But yeah, just look at any of the X1-6 games and his argument is fairly dismantled.
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Sep 29, 2014 05:17
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What would an NES-size Mega Man look like in a SNES game? I'm kind of curious now how effectively they could have used the larger resolution if they'd kept him small like he was on the NES. I wonder if there would be too much empty space, or if the characters would feel too small. He'd be like the size of a JRPG overworld sprite or something. It would have let them go crazy with giant bosses and stuff though.
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Sep 29, 2014 05:20
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Captain Invictus posted:Or, if he is talking about modern games in general, another counterpoint would be metal gear rising. But yeah, just look at any of the X1-6 games and his argument is fairly dismantled. Yeah I don't expect everyone to agree with me on this, just my own personal take. the X series are fine, probably even better in almost every way, but they are a clean break that was designed in it's own way from the start. Maybe 7 and 8 just bug me because they are part of a chain and stand out, I don't know. My point was more just that the guy seemed to think no one wants 8bit for anything other than the look and I merely wanted to issue another counter argument to that. I do think the look of 8bit Mega Man is important too though, it's incredibly iconic and stays pretty well within it's own art style most of the time. It even is pretty similar to the concept art which is itself very charming. Mega Man's sprite stays the same across...I don't even know how many games. He's probably up there with Morrigan on that. I think the shift into the X series somewhat necessitated the setting becoming more grim, as the art could now have more detail and perhaps the cutesy look of the originals might not fare so well. Not a complaint, both approaches are good and valid. Kelp Plankton posted:What would an NES-size Mega Man look like in a SNES game? I'm kind of curious now how effectively they could have used the larger resolution if they'd kept him small like he was on the NES. I wonder if there would be too much empty space, or if the characters would feel too small. He'd be like the size of a JRPG overworld sprite or something. It would have let them go crazy with giant bosses and stuff though. Probably something like the ones at the bottom here: http://sprites-inc.co.uk/sprite.php?local=Classic/Megaman/MM16/ as those are from the Genesis versions of the games. Light Gun Man fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 05:36
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Light Gun Man posted:I think the shift into the X series somewhat necessitated the setting becoming more grim, as the art could now have more detail and perhaps the cutesy look of the originals might not fare so well. Not a complaint, both approaches are good and valid.
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Sep 29, 2014 05:42
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The economy of detail thing is, in fact, an issue, as exemplified in MM7 and 8, where hitboxes often weren't very clear. The X series had a tremendous amount of effort put into maintaining clear edges on objects (until X4, where that started to go by the wayside with predictable results). Even so, there's still a cost to player cognitive resources when graphical complexity increases.
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Sep 29, 2014 05:46
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AHungryRobot posted:I'd say that's more a matter of art style than whether the graphics are 8/16/whatever bit. I think Powered Up's graphics are even more cutesy than what you see in the 8 bit games, and that game was fully 3D. This is true. I'm thinking of it as a context of the times though. If someone at Capcom was in the planning stages for Powered Up, I can see them intentionally targeting cute because it was at original release. Different time and place for classic-> X. Of course, that's all in my head, and they probably had completely different reasons for all these decisions and I should stop this train of posting as I am clearly not explaining myself very well or basing anything on evidence. It's late. Edit: Yeah, Discendo Vox makes more sense than me, listen to them.
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Sep 29, 2014 05:48
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