|
A Keg posted:Wing Chun sparring vids I found on youtube look like this to me: Some of the kung fu full contact vids I watched last night looked pretty ridiculous. Even the world championship videos I was watching of (mostly Shaolin) kung fu ultimately turned into some kind of boxing style, since they have to wear great big gloves and shin pads. They don't look particularly kung fu-y, and my friend's response to that when I asked him about it was "well, you're not going to take a Shaolin stance in a fight, you're just gonna box and grapple when you can". My thing is if the form devolves into boxing and grappling, then why doesn't it teach more effective boxing/grappling? What's the use of drilling tiger techniques and dragon style if you're just gonna stance up and punch a dude? Not to mention that his school and apparently many others like it don't practice full contact sparring, so you're relying on techniques you (seemingly) won't use in a situation you're not prepared for. I'm not using MMA as an ultimate metric here, but does anyone in MMA use kung fu? Perhaps not as their preferred style, but perhaps a portion of it that they think is effective in that context? Mechafunkzilla posted:Any technique that isn't reinforced with many hours of live sparring against resisting opponents isn't worth a whole lot, which is why the most effective martial arts for 'real' fighting (whatever that means) tend to also be combat sports -- the sport component is incredibly important for being able to safely practice the techniques at full force. Then you build on those fundamentals and adapt them to more dangerous non-sport situations. Hey, thanks for the pretty comprehensive post! I own a copy of Codex Wallerstein and it's as baller as I thought it would be. Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Sep 24, 2014 |
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 18:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 05:00 |
|
|
-Blackadder- posted:Anyone here go to a Gracie Barra school? Can you talk about your experience? I'm especially interested in their fundamentals curriculum. It's very sport orientated BJJ and no longer the self defence art that it was invented to be, the local MMA gyms around here wreck the Gracie guys outside of sports Gi Jitsu.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 18:04
|
|
|
Anyone got a prefrence for boxing gloves out of the list on here? http://www.sportsdirect.com/boxing/boxing-gloves And what size would I need for gentle sparring and heavy bag work? I got these because they were advertised as heavy bag gloves and even with wraps, they rip my knuckles to shreds http://fighterxfashion.com/everlast-evergel-wristwrap-heavy-bag-gloves/
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 18:22
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:I'm not using MMA as an ultimate metric here, but does anyone in MMA use kung fu? Perhaps not as their preferred style, but perhaps a portion of it that they think is effective in that context? The short answer is no. Certainly nobody in top level MMA has every gone into the cage and tried to do chi sau blocks into a 15-strike rapid combination, or assumed a traditional kung fu stance, because it would result in them getting loving murdered in about two seconds. People were giddy Lyoto Machida, who has a shotokan background, knocked out Randy Couture with a front snap kick because it's a "Shotokan karate move", but it's not like muay thai-style striking (which is also what he's doing exclusively when he's training for a fight) doesn't have front snap kicks too, and fighters with strictly boxing and muay thai backgrounds like Vitor Belfort have also gotten front kick KO's. If something is effective and is allowed in the rules it's probably already a part of that combat sport's repertoire, almost by definition. Machida may well have learned that particular kick in a shotokan class, but what's really going on there is that effective moves tend to exist and be done the same way in multiple arts, because they're effective.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 18:41
|
|
|
-Blackadder- posted:Anyone here go to a Gracie Barra school? Can you talk about your experience? I'm especially interested in their fundamentals curriculum. Yup. I'm in England so I don't know how things vary by country. We have a fundamentals class 6 days a week, then you can hit the Advanced class which is three stripe, white belt and above; that's an extra three hours of training. Then there's the Black Belt Programme for Blue Belt and above, that's another 2 hours. There are no restrictions on how many times you can train. The fundamentals curriculum has provided me with a really solid foundation in bjj. You return to a technique in a reasonable amount of time so that 1) you recognise the technique and 2) you improve upon it each time, but 3) it doesn't become too repetitive. I did jump straight in and by the GB Gi, it is poo poo. It's widely acknowledged it's poo poo but we have the option of just buying the GB patches and sewing them on to different GI's. If you are in the Advanced class or team, we have to wear GB patches. Other clubs may require you to buy the Storm Kimono. The coaches are fantastic, and I think they are what really makes the club. I would anticipate that a GB branded club cannot be definitively regarded as poo poo or fantastic. It will depend on the instruction and the guys you train with, So you just have to suck it and see. You couldn't pay me to train any where else than my club though. I hope that has helped a little! Edit: we also more than hold our own against the MMA guys at no-Gi tournament 
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 18:46
|
|
|
willie_dee posted:Anyone got a prefrence for boxing gloves out of the list on here? First thing - From what I've heard, Everlast used to be a solid brand. But now, their equipment is trash. Falls apart in no time. And as you've experienced, quality isn't the best. --- To answer your question: For sparring, you want at least 14oz. gloves. But, you really should buy 16oz. gloves. For bag work, 12oz. gloves are fine. Edit: If you're insistent on ordering from the site above, I would suggest the Title brand gloves. We have several of those at the gym as "community" gloves. I used those often before buying my own pairs and the Title ones felt fine.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 18:46
|
|
|
Mechafunkzilla posted:The short answer is no. Certainly nobody in top level MMA has every gone into the cage and tried to do chi sau blocks into a 15-strike rapid combination, or assumed a traditional kung fu stance, because it would result in them getting loving murdered in about two seconds. To be fair, he does do a lot of other shotokan-y stuff. It's clearly his base and he makes it work, but yeah, he's had to bring in more stuff from other styles than guys who just run MT/BJJ.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 18:57
|
|
|
Dangit! I've been told I've got to have eye surgery which pretty much rules out taking any super hard headshots......looks like it's headgear and light sparring for the rest of my days.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 19:00
|
|
|
Gaz2k21 posted:Dangit! I've been told I've got to have eye surgery which pretty much rules out taking any super hard headshots......looks like it's headgear and light sparring for the rest of my days. What kind of eye surgery? I had Advanced Surface Ablation laser surgey done nearly two years ago, and that is supposed to be perfectly compatible with combat sports. Also, regarding Kung Fu, for some ungodly reason Roy Nelson is introduced as a Kung Fu fighter in the UFC.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 19:36
|
|
|
Dolemite posted:First thing - From what I've heard, Everlast used to be a solid brand. But now, their equipment is trash. Falls apart in no time. And as you've experienced, quality isn't the best. Thanks
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 19:44
|
|
|
Mechafunkzilla posted:muay thai-style striking (which is also what he's doing exclusively when he's training for a fight) This is not true, much of his striking is straight from shotokan and is not muay thai at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCzxpSsG-aM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urhdB5aZTgQ
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 19:45
|
|
He expended too much energy and got tired
|
Roy Nelson is a kung fu fighter
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 19:45
|
|
|
-Blackadder- posted:Hmm, ok well here are some of the places I'm considering, in order of closest to furthest away. I was originally looking for No Gi BJJ/CSW and some stand up, boxing or Muay Thai, but I'm try to keep my options open. What do you guys think? I train at Marcelo's academy in Seattle, and I can tell you that the Fife club has some legit guys. I've never trained down there in person though. Travis is good, he used to teach Saturdays in Seattle.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 19:46
|
|
|
Dangersim posted:This is not true, much of his striking is straight from shotokan and is not muay thai at all. When he's in a camp 8 weeks out from a fight he is not doing shotokan rules point sparring. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Sep 24, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 19:48
|
|
|
Mechafunkzilla posted:When he's in a camp 8 weeks out from a fight he is not doing shotokan rules point sparring. Ok but that doesn't automatically mean he's doing muay thai. Just being full contact does not make it muay thai.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 19:50
|
|
|
Dangersim posted:Ok but that doesn't automatically mean he's doing muay thai. Just being full contact does not make it muay thai. "Full contact" karate looks really funny though, because there's still no headshots with fists. So just dude standing there trading body shots and then whipping up to kick each other in the head. (I'm sure Machida's not doing that.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 19:54
|
|
|
Dangersim posted:Ok but that doesn't automatically mean he's doing muay thai. Just being full contact does not make it muay thai. I said 'training muay thai-style striking', meaning, when he's sparring striking it's under a similar ruleset to muay thai, as opposed to a similar ruleset to shotokan. Don't be obtuse. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Sep 24, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 19:56
|
|
|
the JJ posted:"Full contact" karate looks really funny though, because there's still no headshots with fists. So just dude standing there trading body shots and then whipping up to kick each other in the head. that's kyoshukin
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 19:57
|
|
|
Mechafunkzilla posted:I said 'training muay thai-style striking', meaning, when he's sparring striking it's under a similar ruleset to muay thai, as opposed to a similar ruleset to shotokan. Don't be obtuse. No, he's doing shotokan striking with MT rules. Probably with MMA rules actually, if he's actually training. Dangersim posted:that's kyoshukin Yeah I know. It still looks very silly. It might be more  than shotokan point sparring but at least we protect our heads.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 20:04
|
|
|
DekeThornton posted:What kind of eye surgery? I had Advanced Surface Ablation laser surgey done nearly two years ago, and that is supposed to be perfectly compatible with combat sports. I'm having corneal cross linking to both eyes as well as having a precorneal ring fitted to the left, apparently the cross linking can make the cornea more brittle and there is always a risk the precorneal ring may break from impact. It's not going to stop me training it's just something I have to be mindful off.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 20:33
|
|
|
Gaz2k21 posted:I'm having corneal cross linking to both eyes as well as having a precorneal ring fitted to the left, apparently the cross linking can make the cornea more brittle and there is always a risk the precorneal ring may break from impact. Ah, ok. I thought you where having regular laser Eye surgery of some sort, in which case the method you choose is more or less compatible with contact sports. Hope everything goes as smoothly with the surgery as mine did. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 20:49
|
|
|
Well I broke Ben's rule over the beginning of this week. I went on vacation with the family from Sunday to today and drank every night. I even got cut off at the casino last night (first time gambling). It was just a minor bender and my excuse was that I was on vacation. So now I start back on day 1 today. Last week Ben even said I shouldn't go to his UFC win parties.  He is right though. I really don't have a handle on it. I made it 8 days before the vacation and I did feel a lot better so hopefully I can go longer now.The good news is that Ben told me to come to kickboxing this week so he can give me my orange belt. I'll just leave the drinking part out of any conversation. I'm progressing very slowly due to absences from training but that is all due to the bipolar. I'm hoping to start catching back up soon. I think the next belt is green and I think he mentioned that we have to test for green and up and it's a 3 hour long test. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 23:54
|
|
|
MalleusDei posted:I train at Marcelo's academy in Seattle, and I can tell you that the Fife club has some legit guys. I've never trained down there in person though. Travis is good, he used to teach Saturdays in Seattle. Hey, WA buddy! Thanks, I'll check it out. Apparently there's also another Marcelo Alonso school right over the bridge. You know anything about him?
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 00:53
|
|
|
Going back half a page and basically everything was already said, but just so, what is "practical" is what you do against resisting partners, the more they resist and the less rules the better when applicable in a "no rules" scenario or some other massive catastrophe you shouldn't be involved in. Out of all the fights I've seen and remeber IIRC 4 (four) punches is the max and fight over, or one takedown. 'cuz only one of the persons involved knew how to fight at all. Well there was this one time when two guys who both knew how to wrassle locked heads and grappled for at least two minutes before the other started getting tired and his friends dragged him off - and they only lasted two minutes because both were high on meth. If you train simulating stuff it won't prolly work. In fact it will certainly not work. Boxers and grapplers are great because they spar and roll against fully resisting partners, people who try to either punch them in the face for reals or choke them out. TMA... sure, might work - if they do the same. No better way to train for something that actually might be useful in a situation where you are physically under threat, apart from Nike Do, which is ladder drills that make you run away really fast. I think it was the great Bas Rutten who said something like "what the gently caress, because we can fight within rules supposedly means we can't fight without rules?" when contemplating real fights instead of ring or cage fights. Exactly. You can bet if someone is a great full contact kickboxer, he can beat the poo poo out of just about anyone who hasn't also spent 10 000 hours training how to knock other people out. (Someone pulls any sort of weapon out, you lose, and might die. Also please don't fight.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 01:33
|
|
|
Dangersim posted:that's kyoshukin You do realise he has spent time training Muay Thai and specifically referenced this many, many times, he trains with Rafael Cordiero or how ever the gently caress you spell it and has brought in Manhoef to help him out with his kickboxing in the past. While I don't disagree he's primarily a Karate fighter, he's used muay thai techniques in the past and continues to train in the style.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 06:22
|
|
|
Gaz2k21 posted:Dangit! I've been told I've got to have eye surgery which pretty much rules out taking any super hard headshots......looks like it's headgear and light sparring for the rest of my days. Condolences. I wake up every morning after sparring wondering if I'll see a retinal detachment (family history, myopia, and serious floaters all risk factors for me). I'm taking a smoker match this Saturday and will try to decide if I want to retire from sparring after that. Mechafunkzilla posted:People were giddy Lyoto Machida, who has a shotokan background, knocked out Randy Couture with a front snap kick because it's a "Shotokan karate move", but it's not like muay thai-style striking (which is also what he's doing exclusively when he's training for a fight) doesn't have front snap kicks too, and fighters with strictly boxing and muay thai backgrounds like Vitor Belfort have also gotten front kick KO's. Well, Vitor's more memorably been KOed that way. Anyways, MMA is subject to the same fad obsession I see with BJJ techniques. Some pro does something cool, and the next day at the gym, you see folks trying it out. There are techniques that exist and are effective but don't get used that much. Some guys, thanks to their less usual backgrounds, do them more. That move's ease of execution for Lyoto comes from his Shotokan background.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 08:18
|
|
|
BlindSite posted:You do realise he has spent time training Muay Thai and specifically referenced this many, many times, he trains with Rafael Cordiero or how ever the gently caress you spell it and has brought in Manhoef to help him out with his kickboxing in the past. Yes I am aware of that, what I was commenting on was the insinuation that Lyoto is really a muay thai fighter who used to do karate, when he is a karate fighter who has incorporated muay thai.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 08:42
|
|
|
A Keg posted:Wing Chun sparring vids I found on youtube look like this to me: To backtack to the Wing Chun talk, I've done a few months of Wing Chun (my first martial art), so here is my very naive opinion of it. It's an evasive, 'soft' art dependent on the redirection of force and is generally heavy on technique. Indeed, maybe a couple of years of boxing or one of the harder arts would serve you better, faster, in the mystical 'combat situation'. Indeed, our sifu does make a differentiation between what you'd use for a sparring against another Wing Chun practitioner to refine the art (chi sau and combinations and the like) and what you'd do against an violent but untrained agressor. When training our basic blocks, for we are constantly reminded, 'well, that's worked this time against his punch, but you aren't over far enough - if he had a knife you'd still be *beep*ed.' He does teach to police forces and the like so I'd say there's some truth to his experience - he has thirty years of it and I sincerely believe, trying as hard as possible to be without bias, that if any random person were to start on him, they would be in a bad way very, very quickly.  It might all be lies, but if a decade of  was good enough for Bruce Lee before he reached what he percieved to be the limitations of it, meanwhile getting into street fights with gangs before then, it's probably good enough for a malcoordinated goon like me. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 10:28
|
|
|
The main problem with wing chun in my eyes is that you spent years learning the theory behind this martial art which works in a range of combat that doesn't exist. If you want to get really good at punching somebody who is too close to punch you effectively but just far away enough that they can't wrestle you effectively, it'll be great.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 12:20
|
|
|
Tawd posted:He does teach to police forces and the like so I'd say there's some truth to his experience - he has thirty years of it and I sincerely believe, trying as hard as possible to be without bias, that if any random person were to start on him, they would be in a bad way very, very quickly. There's no doubt in my mind he would tool most random persons. Untrained vs trained usually ends badly for the untrained. That said like 02-6611-0142-1 points out, someone with 30 years of boxing would probably never let him close enough to do anything, and someone with 30 years of grappling would go for his hips the instant he starts whirling his fists, and take him to the ground instead of letting him chain punch him in the face. There is a reason MMA rings aren't full of Wing Chun fighters.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 13:12
|
|
|
'This works on untrained people' is kind of a hilarious low bar for learning martial arts techniques. Like giving chess lessons on how to beat people who don't know how to play chess.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 13:31
|
|
|
It isn't to say wing chun doesn't have use, I just classify it more like a performance art though with a grounding in good theories on body mechanics, and even if it is good against untrained bros the problem is wing chun doesn't really spar more heavily than chi sao and the foot version I can't remember the name of... So you may as well fight like an untrained monkey, because trying to tan or lop an incoming fist may end up with you eating another fist or a basic take down everyone knows, and you can't defend if you do chun only because chun really doesn't teach ground or take down defense.
Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Sep 25, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 13:34
|
|
|
I have gi burn starting from my eye socket and going in a narrow strip down to my cheek. No idea how it happened.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 16:11
|
|
|
-Blackadder- posted:Hey, WA buddy! Thanks, I'll check it out. Apparently there's also another Marcelo Alonso school right over the bridge. You know anything about him? Well, we had an inter school thing recently, and he coached a guy in to passing my guard... He was friendly enough, but other than that, I don't know anything about him or his school.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 17:43
|
|
|
Tawd posted:It's an evasive, 'soft' art dependent on the redirection of force and is generally heavy on technique. I think you wanted 'mythical.' Boxing is fast and hard, but that doesn't mean it doesn't allow for fighters who prefer evasive tactics and have really fine-tuned technique. There should be plenty of room for individual expression and style within any martial art.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 17:57
|
|
|
If you want to see a true kung fu master watch Floyd jr or classic guys like sweet pea or willie pep. They do all that trapping and evading defense except in real life against great punchers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 20:55
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:Can anyone give me their ideas on traditional martial arts like kung fu/wing chun and their practicality? I was watching some kung fu people in New York and it seemed pretty hokey. I used to take a wing chun class in Brooklyn more legit/interesting than anything I've seen on YouTube and could hook you up if you'd like to give them a try. That said ultimately I switched to bjj/judo with a bit of Muay Thai and ultimately you probably should too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 21:24
|
|
|
kimbo305 posted:I think you wanted 'mythical.' Indeed I did, sorry. A strange irony of the martial arts world is that everyone seems to be preparing for a 'tactical' 'combat situation' street fight against a random, unknown agressor who may or may not be a practitioner of another martial art. Not to foo-foo the question, but in a world where the -fear- of violence at random is far greater than it's actual probability for most people most of the time it's far more likely that you accidently walked onto a movie set. 02-6611-0142-1 posted:The main problem with wing chun in my eyes is that you spent years learning the theory behind this martial art which works in a range of combat that doesn't exist. If you want to get really good at punching somebody who is too close to punch you effectively but just far away enough that they can't wrestle you effectively, it'll be great. No doubt, every criticism I've seen of Wing Chun here could be valid, especially if you were to inflexibly apply the ideas it teaches. But you could apply that argument to almost any martial art, and it would be almost as frustrating as somebody saying, 'what if I've got a gun, duhh?' Does anyone have any hard facts on actual real-world fights or assaults and the forms that they take? I'd be really curious to see any information on that sort of thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
I don't think there's an exhaustive streetfight database out there, but from what I've seen in person and on the web they tend to be a wild swing or two followed by both guys getting scared and grabbing onto each other for dear life. This is one reason Judo is cool.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 22:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 05:00 |
|
|
Tawd posted:
I believe the only facts you can get about street fighting involves numbers of "victimization's", but beyond that it's all probably anecdotal at best.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2014 22:34
|
|