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Tunicate posted:It lost me at the second book, which backpedals a lot on stuff that happened in the first one. Yeah, reading the second book it's all "oh no, I don't want to be magical even though I did all these things" I'm trying to power though it to see if it picks up again.
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Sep 25, 2014 20:18
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Unofficial urban fantasy thread, I bring you an excerpt from Foxglove Summer.
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Sep 26, 2014 02:39
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I was talking about The Dresden Files with another goon and it suddenly the root cause of my dislike in this series. It's because this is supposed to be an R-rated series and yet those elements are conspicuously absent or covered-up, like watching a like film on basic cable and noticing how they've obviously censored the profanity. Butcher's clearly trying to write a series with adult sensibilities but there's clearly something keeping him in first gear. Then again, I just finished Blood Rites-does it get better?
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Sep 26, 2014 08:40
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Ornamented Death posted:Unofficial urban fantasy thread, I bring you an excerpt from Foxglove Summer. Someone already beat you to it here. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh my. Looks like the first chapter of Foxglove Summer is up on Ben Aaronovitch's blog:
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Sep 26, 2014 12:10
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Benny the Snake posted:I was talking about The Dresden Files with another goon and it suddenly the root cause of my dislike in this series. It's because this is supposed to be an R-rated series and yet those elements are conspicuously absent or covered-up, like watching a like film on basic cable and noticing how they've obviously censored the profanity. Butcher's clearly trying to write a series with adult sensibilities but there's clearly something keeping him in first gear. Then again, I just finished Blood Rites-does it get better? Uh, Dresden Files has graphic onscreen murder, multiple sex scenes and lots of swearing. One of the major subplots is literally based around sex rape vampires and I don't think Butcher can go a book without mentioning someone's stiff nipples or whatever. Harry doesn't swear much (aside from his magical swears) but that is because it gives him extra emphasis when he says "gently caress" instead of "Stars and Stones." I mean I'm not really sure how "onscreen werewolf sex orgy" somehow goes hand-in-hand with lack of R-rated elements. If your complaint is that Dresden Files doesn't have enough sex, violence and swearing, I'm not sure what you could read that would give you more aside from one of the "Anita Blake fucks her way through the supernatural set" kind of books which is less adult and more borderline pornography. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Sep 26, 2014 |
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Sep 26, 2014 13:47
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Benny the Snake posted:I was talking about The Dresden Files with another goon and it suddenly the root cause of my dislike in this series. It's because this is supposed to be an R-rated series and yet those elements are conspicuously absent or covered-up, like watching a like film on basic cable and noticing how they've obviously censored the profanity. Butcher's clearly trying to write a series with adult sensibilities but there's clearly something keeping him in first gear. Then again, I just finished Blood Rites-does it get better?
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Sep 26, 2014 14:27
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Benny the Snake posted:I was talking about The Dresden Files with another goon and it suddenly the root cause of my dislike in this series. It's because this is supposed to be an R-rated series and yet those elements are conspicuously absent or covered-up, like watching a like film on basic cable and noticing how they've obviously censored the profanity. Butcher's clearly trying to write a series with adult sensibilities but there's clearly something keeping him in first gear. Then again, I just finished Blood Rites-does it get better? Just because they don't run around screaming "gently caress" all the time doesn't mean it's toned down. Seriously, there's a ton of sex, graphic violence, and swearing. Fucks happen, just not every other word. Also, just FYI, "Hell's Bells" is an actual, real-life curse.
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Sep 26, 2014 15:57
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Benny the Snake posted:I was talking about The Dresden Files with another goon and it suddenly the root cause of my dislike in this series. It's because this is supposed to be an R-rated series and yet those elements are conspicuously absent or covered-up, like watching a like film on basic cable and noticing how they've obviously censored the profanity. Butcher's clearly trying to write a series with adult sensibilities but there's clearly something keeping him in first gear. Then again, I just finished Blood Rites-does it get better? You've just finished a book where half the characters are porn stars.
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Sep 26, 2014 15:59
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Did you miss the scene where in Fool Moon where the 3 werewolves are loving each other while eating a human they killed or the scene in Grave Peril were Dresden ties up a blood lust filled half turned red vampire so he can gently caress the lust out of her so she doesn't kill him and turn? This series has enough hosed up "Adult" content for you to enjoy I don't think they need more.
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Sep 26, 2014 16:11
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Hey, remember that snuff film sex scene in Skin Game? Good times.
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Sep 26, 2014 16:22
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Yeah, "Blood Rites" involved a porn production and porn stars, but it felt to me like Butcher was over-compensating. Like, when I read it, I could hear his insecurity about how Harry's a private detective, so he should handle sleazy cases, and what's sleazier than porn? And that's the core of it. I'm almost finished with "The Rivers of London" by Ben Aaronavitch and I'm impressed by his prose and his characterization, too. The protagonist is rookie cop Peter Grant who talks and acts like a well-adjusted adult. Also, Aaronovitch, so far, doesn't need to exploit salacious elements in order to remind us that this is a hardboiled detective story. Wheras Butcher's Harry Dresden is a manchild who says things like "It's an Asian sword without the class of a proper katana". I read Aaronavich and I appreciate how the author is an older hand at genre fiction who's protagonist is, refreshingly enough, a mature adult and who lets the story develop organically. I read Butcher and it still feels one step removed from a creative writing student's project. Not only that, but Butcher's aping Chandler through Harry. I'm a huge fan of Chandler, myself, but I'll read Chandler if I want to read him I shouldn't have to read a second-rate imitation by somebody who doesn't realize that good harboiled fiction restrains itself, which is something that Butcher doesn't seem willing to do from what I've read. The difference to me between Butcher and Aaronovitch is early Image comics vs contemporary Image, Quentin Tarantino vs Martin Scorsese. That's what I'm getting at. I'm going to keep reading The Dresden Files for two reasons. First is because it's a sunk cost--I snapped up seven of the books second-hand at the local library and I just bought "Dead Beat", so I might as well keep reading. Second is I'm reading Butcher from my perspective as an aspiring writer and current Thunderdomer, in that Butcher is an example of how not to write supernatural mystery. In the meanwhile, I'm going to suplement that by reading both Aaronovitch and Neil Gamian. I'm gonna pick up "American Gods" soon.
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Sep 26, 2014 16:43
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Yeah, if you're going to throw Neil Gaiman into the mix there is no way I'm going to argue about Butcher's level of writing. American Gods loving owns and you should be ashamed for not having read it ten years ago, assuming you weren't literally five years old back then or something. Pretty much everything Gaiman does is gold, though.
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Sep 26, 2014 17:14
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Firstly, I wanted to thanks the thread for recommending the Alex Verus series. I enjoyed it a lot. Secondly, how is Dresden not adult? Is it just the relative lack of onscreen sex?
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Sep 26, 2014 17:25
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Dresden still makes idiotic nerd references to poo poo, probably. At least he isn't the Iron Druid.
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Sep 26, 2014 17:30
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Rygar201 posted:Firstly, I wanted to thanks the thread for recommending the Alex Verus series. I enjoyed it a lot.
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Sep 26, 2014 19:35
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Kaptain K posted:It's written in the style of young adult, it's PG13. Adult subject matter =/= adult content. So if the movie version of Full Moon were played and included the aforementioned scene where three werewolves gently caress and eat the corpse of a human they just killed, what rating do you think that would be? Edit: loving autocorrect -Fish- fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Sep 26, 2014 |
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Sep 26, 2014 19:58
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-Fish- posted:So if the movie version of Full Moon were played and included the aforementioned scene where three werewolves gently caress and eat the corpse of a human they just killed, what rating do you think that would be? It would be rated R because the adult subject matter would be depicted explicitly (because the visual medium is inherently explicit). This is not the case in the books. Allusions to adult situations don't automatically make something "mature" or "adult".
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Sep 26, 2014 20:02
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Kaptain K posted:It would be rated R because the adult subject matter would be depicted explicitly (because the visual medium is inherently explicit). This is not the case in the books. Allusions to adult situations don't automatically make something "mature" or "adult". You and I have differing definitions of the word allusion. That's not an allusion, that's an explicit depiction.
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Sep 26, 2014 20:20
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After rereading Small Favor its clear when Lucifer intervened, once capturing Marcone and once capturing the Archive. However Uriel is a lot less clear, I only come up with once giving Harry soulfire. Anyone catch the second intervention?
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Sep 26, 2014 21:14
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Azuth0667 posted:After rereading Small Favor its clear when Lucifer intervened, once capturing Marcone and once capturing the Archive. However Uriel is a lot less clear, I only come up with once giving Harry soulfire. Anyone catch the second intervention? Edit: Whoops spoiler for the wrong book here.
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Sep 26, 2014 21:17
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Azuth0667 posted:After rereading Small Favor its clear when Lucifer intervened, once capturing Marcone and once capturing the Archive. However Uriel is a lot less clear, I only come up with once giving Harry soulfire. Anyone catch the second intervention? It's been a while since I read it, but I think it was when Harry's burnt hand moved on its own.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:31
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quote:Second is I'm reading Butcher from my perspective as an aspiring writer and current Thunderdomer, in that Butcher is an example of how not to write supernatural mystery.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:24
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Dude, he expressed an opinion. That's allowed in this thread.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:27
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Benny the Snake posted:I read Aaronavich and I appreciate how the author is an older hand at genre fiction who's protagonist is, refreshingly enough, a mature adult and who lets the story develop organically. You're not wrong that Aaronavich is a better writer but Peter is absolutely not a mature adult. He's not quite as manchild as Dresden but he's pretty manchild. He makes multiple pop culture references including to children's television shows that (by his age) he probably shouldn't be familiar with and is often less mature than other people his own age. Like if you're reading RoL and going "That Peter, he's a mature adult," you're missing actual plot threads in the books. Peter is way less straight-up manchild dork than Dresden but still on a road to maturity instead of actually being there and he's still pretty manchild dork. If there's one thing I'll say about Peter over Dresden is that (hat jokes aside), Peter is way less of a fedora-wearing type than Dresden. To give Butcher some credit, Dresden's plot is specifically that he has to become a mature adult. He's just not as good a writer. (And Neil Gaiman is infinitely better than both.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Sep 27, 2014 |
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Sep 27, 2014 00:31
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I can honestly see someone who went in expecting Philip Marlowe But With Magic being thrown by getting what turns out to be Spider-Man But With Magic, though it's not really a complaint I have.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:33
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Coyote Dreams is so much better over the second book. I'm glad I decided to power though. So far the Walker Papers is turning out decently. I can even tolerate every car metaphor.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:53
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Azuth0667 posted:After rereading Small Favor its clear when Lucifer intervened, once capturing Marcone and once capturing the Archive. However Uriel is a lot less clear, I only come up with once giving Harry soulfire. Anyone catch the second intervention? e: VVV ah Elizabethan Error fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Sep 27, 2014 |
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Sep 27, 2014 01:52
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MasterFugu posted:you're crediting Lucifer with the actions of the Denarians Lucifer explicitly powered their super circles.
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Sep 27, 2014 02:37
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MasterFugu posted:you're crediting Lucifer with the actions of the Denarians Uriel states that Lucifer used his overtly and directly while saying that he was more subtle about it.
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Sep 27, 2014 03:11
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ImpAtom posted:You're not wrong that Aaronavich is a better writer but Peter is absolutely not a mature adult. He's not quite as manchild as Dresden but he's pretty manchild. He makes multiple pop culture references including to children's television shows that (by his age) he probably shouldn't be familiar with and is often less mature than other people his own age.  Because the sign of a mature adult is hating cartoons, not stuff like living independently, or having integrity, or standing up for your friends. What's that CS Lewis quote again? quote:Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow.
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Sep 27, 2014 06:43
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Cicero posted:Because the sign of a mature adult is hating cartoons, not stuff like living independently, or having integrity, or standing up for your friends. What's that CS Lewis quote again? Uh? Did you decide to jump on me for some particular reason or did you just completely ignore the person I was responding to and the context of the conversation?
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Sep 27, 2014 06:57
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ImpAtom posted:Uh? Did you decide to jump on me for some particular reason or did you just completely ignore the person I was responding to and the context of the conversation?
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Sep 27, 2014 07:02
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Cicero posted:I guess I could throw in his quote too, but it seemed like you agreed with his premise of what constitutes a mature adult. I mean I agree that Dresden definitely matures over the course of the series, I just think the whole "well this character knows about [pop culture thing], ugh, what a manchild" thing is stupid. Because no matter how much you post that quote, it doens't change the fact that Dresden (and to a lesser extent Peter) are still immature manchildren no matter how much they stand up for their friends. It is in fact a central part of Dresden's story and at least part of that is his fixation on things like that. Knowing pop culture references and using them as a central bit of your mindset are two very different things. Dresden especially is bad about this. The dude lives and breathes pop culture (and happens to be in a universe where that works out for him) and uses it inappropriately and (even recognized in-story) as an escape from actual responsibility and mature reactions. Dresden lives independently, has integrity, and always stands up for his friends. He's also got a childish view of women, an inability to keep his mouth shut when it could avoid problems, a fixation on pop culture that intrudes on other parts of his life, and perhaps most importantly is not willing to accept responsibility unless he has no other choice. (Most easily seen with Maggie but also in other parts of his life.) He is gradually growing out of that but in some cases it had to be literally ripped away from him before he would do so. Dude is completely a manchild but he's growing out of it, ever-so-slowly. That doesn't mean he stops liking pop culture, just that he handles it better. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Sep 27, 2014 |
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Sep 27, 2014 07:04
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Cicero posted:I guess I could throw in his quote too, but it seemed like you agreed with his premise of what constitutes a mature adult. I mean I agree that Dresden definitely matures over the course of the series, I just think the whole "well this character knows about [pop culture thing], ugh, what a manchild" thing is stupid. The issue with Peter is that whenever he gets his manchild pop culture reference on, he's almost always wrong (and this is deliberate, not the writer being literally old enough to be Peter's father) - someone called him an unreliable narrator earlier in the thread - I don't think that's true, but certainly not everything he says is correct.
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Sep 27, 2014 21:37
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Hey so my drawing schedule lightened up now that my book is coming out from Darkhorse. So I have the free time to do Daily Dresden Drawings for Summer Knight and maybe Death Masks. But I'm drawing a blank on what to use at the cover Summer Knight. So what are some of you guys favorite scenes in Summer Knight. Preferable comedy wise so it matches the Harry dressed as cheesy vampire drawing I did for my Grave Peril booklet which is still free BTW> https://gumroad.com/l/RpbD Edit: And same question for Death Marks
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Sep 28, 2014 20:57
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ookiimarukochan posted:The issue with Peter is that whenever he gets his manchild pop culture reference on, he's almost always wrong (and this is deliberate, not the writer being literally old enough to be Peter's father) - someone called him an unreliable narrator earlier in the thread - I don't think that's true, but certainly not everything he says is correct. Aaronovitch has been called out before for getting some geography stuff wrong. He has responded that it was written as intended. Peter not being 100% reliable definitely happens.
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Sep 28, 2014 22:00
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KellHound posted:Hey so my drawing schedule lightened up now that my book is coming out from Darkhorse. So I have the free time to do Daily Dresden Drawings for Summer Knight and maybe Death Masks. But I'm drawing a blank on what to use at the cover Summer Knight. So what are some of you guys favorite scenes in Summer Knight. Preferable comedy wise so it matches the Harry dressed as cheesy vampire drawing I did for my Grave Peril booklet which is still free BTW> https://gumroad.com/l/RpbD Not sure about comedy wise (though I always did like Meryl chumping Harry into bins and out of pizza as well as Sanya's prank calls) but Harry unhorsing the Sidhe charge and Nicodemus facing off against Harry, Michael and Marcone on the train. Murphy's chainsaw and Ursiel are both right up there, too.
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Sep 28, 2014 22:23
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packsmack posted:Aaronovitch has been called out before for getting some geography stuff wrong. He has responded that it was written as intended. Peter not being 100% reliable definitely happens. Interesting, where exactly do these lapses happen?
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Sep 28, 2014 22:31
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KellHound posted:Hey so my drawing schedule lightened up now that my book is coming out from Darkhorse. So I have the free time to do Daily Dresden Drawings for Summer Knight and maybe Death Masks. But I'm drawing a blank on what to use at the cover Summer Knight. So what are some of you guys favorite scenes in Summer Knight. Preferable comedy wise so it matches the Harry dressed as cheesy vampire drawing I did for my Grave Peril booklet which is still free BTW> https://gumroad.com/l/RpbD For Summer Knight, you have to either do "I don't believe in fairies!" or "For the Pizza Lord! Charge!" From Death Masks, you could do Thomas being drunk at the duel, Larry Fowler's set on fire, or Cassius being left behind with only a quarter.
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Sep 28, 2014 23:55
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KellHound posted:Hey so my drawing schedule lightened up now that my book is coming out from Darkhorse. So I have the free time to do Daily Dresden Drawings for Summer Knight and maybe Death Masks. But I'm drawing a blank on what to use at the cover Summer Knight. So what are some of you guys favorite scenes in Summer Knight. Preferable comedy wise so it matches the Harry dressed as cheesy vampire drawing I did for my Grave Peril booklet which is still free BTW> https://gumroad.com/l/RpbD Summer Knight: Harry dumping a glass of ice water on himself. More cheesy, the Blue beetle + chainsaw vs. the plant demon. Death Masks: Harry summoning the oracle spirit in a cabbage patch doll. Harry gloating on the boat right before he is caught by one of the churchmice.
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Sep 29, 2014 00:25
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