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Horatius Bonar posted:This tear gas was used at Central between 9:30 - 10:30 pm, according to my friend who took the picture. Not sure if it is the "last night" you're talking about though, might be the night before that. Does it look like the one you're talking about? I started paying attention in the morning. Didn't see anything timestamped before 1.30ish, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. That said, foreign media only picked it up later in the day, so either all the foreign journos went to bed early or it happened late at night and they didn't see it till the morning.
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Sep 29, 2014 17:38
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It's so surreal seeing those pictures of Hong Kong being so empty. That city is legitimately the most busy and crowded city I've ever been to.
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Sep 29, 2014 17:45
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So where are all the police and why?
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Sep 29, 2014 17:45
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The only reason I can think of to not have the police in the fight is to have a clear line of fire for when the army's sent in.
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Sep 29, 2014 17:46
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Ceciltron posted:The only reason I can think of to not have the police in the fight is to have a clear line of fire for when the army's sent in. Nah, if stuff like looting and vandalizing starts they can point to that and say "look what they did when we were not present" and make sad faces to shop owners. Alternatively, they did their homework by looking into similar recent events around the world and concluded that heavy police repression in the early days deepens the crisis even further.
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Sep 29, 2014 17:53
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Looks like they're getting ready for another try to clear the streets. Stay safe any of you guys who are out there.
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Sep 29, 2014 17:57
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I reported what I saw to different tents and supply camps. No one's too scared but silently murmured dammit. So I'm helping people move stuff now. Water and food last, rarer items like poncho and goggles to the next station. It's a bit of a scramble. After that I was directed to central aid tent in admiralty. When I was at the tent I saw other people coming in and reporting in and about different incidents. Seems like wanchai had a few arrests and police is pushing back. But it might be a rumor. Good news is that what I saw was false alarm. According to people with more experience, every platoon have dudes with flags as standard procedure. And you need 5 buses of police vans to even push. Yesterday's tear gas incident was to give way for other police vehicles coming in because protesters were blocking the access road. Judging from today's calm there shouldn't be anything too funny from the police going on. However Admiralty group is here to stay. There are scooters full of supplies and lines of people loading cargo. Bad news, Scholarism internal supply station communications have messages beware of "triads" starting poo poo up at each supply station. Ugggh. And as this moment there's a scooter column clearing a path to wanchai because supplies need to be moved. Hope it's not related to what I heard. Anyways... More updates soon.
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Sep 29, 2014 18:18
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caberham posted:Bad news, Scholarism internal supply station communications have messages beware of "triads" starting poo poo up at each supply station. What would be the position of triads? Are they known to be collaborating with the HK gov. or the police when it comes to suppressing some dissidents? I know very little about their politics but I believe they would be pretty anti-mainland, no?
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Sep 29, 2014 18:24
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Walked from IFC (Central) to Causeway Bay around 6pm-8pm tonight. I have never seen Hong Kong so united, peaceful and civilized. Pray that everyone stays safe through the night and the coming days. Took a whole lot of photos along the way and can't wait to hear the headcounts of participants these last two days. It's clearly way more than the 30,000 protesters yesterday afternoon. Wouldn't be surprised if there were 100,000 in the 3 main protest areas. Wish the supply stations stocked deodorant. People were spraying water and walking around with portable fans, but someone seriously needs to sponsor a few truckloads of deodorant.
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Sep 29, 2014 18:26
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fspades posted:What would be the position of triads? Are they known to be collaborating with the HK gov. or the police when it comes to suppressing some dissidents? I know very little about their politics but I believe they would be pretty anti-mainland, no? They are generally known to be pro-government yeah, CY Leung was photographed going to dinner with triad leader Shanghai Tsai before his election iirc and anti-Beijing people have been injured in triad attacks I think? One of the guys in HK can probably give a more detailed answer.
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Sep 29, 2014 18:27
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Zohar posted:They are generally known to be pro-government yeah, CY Leung was photographed going to dinner with triad leader Shanghai Tsai before his election iirc and anti-Beijing people have been injured in triad attacks I think? One of the guys in HK can probably give a more detailed answer. Triads are generally pro-tycoon, which is an interest group that is usually pro-government.
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Sep 29, 2014 18:29
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fspades posted:What would be the position of triads? Their services are for sale to Beijing.
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Sep 29, 2014 18:29
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derekf posted:Walked from IFC (Central) to Causeway Bay around 6pm-8pm tonight. I have never seen Hong Kong so united, peaceful and civilized. Pray that everyone stays safe through the night and the coming days. Took a whole lot of photos along the way and can't wait to hear the headcounts of participants these last two days. It's clearly way more than the 30,000 protesters yesterday afternoon. Wouldn't be surprised if there were 100,000 in the 3 main protest areas. Isn't deodorant more of a Western thing? It's my impression that Asians generally don't use it.
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Sep 29, 2014 18:31
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drat, that's pretty bad then. The mix of organized crime and political authoritarianism usually makes for some pretty ugly results.
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Sep 29, 2014 18:35
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So what's happening next? Police pulling back and in go some payed provocateurs to start looting, so that the police can go off the leash?
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Sep 29, 2014 18:39
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JaucheCharly posted:So what's happening next? Police pulling back and in go some payed provocateurs to start looting, so that the police can go off the leash? Seems that way, update on that Reddit live thing if it's not rumor peddling: quote:Arsenal Street requires backup, rumours suggests triads are trying to pick a fight with the police. Keep alerted and take video for evidence.
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Sep 29, 2014 18:45
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What I'm really interested in is the tactics and equipment used by the upcoming police response, especially once the PLA gets involved. Does anyone know if they carry tasers?
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Sep 29, 2014 19:06
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Just as I was about to head home in this lull. People are telling us to get ready put on masks. Supply stations fully mobilized. gently caress me
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Sep 29, 2014 19:13
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fart simpson posted:especially once the PLA gets involved. Piss off you nasty troll.
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Sep 29, 2014 19:19
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Been following this thread since the protests started getting talked about in the news, it's quite remarkable. I really hope the government decides to resolve this diplomatically with some meaningful concessions rather than use violence. I don't know much about the history of protest in China, but would these be the biggest demonstrations since Tienanmen Square? That's the only other famously large protest I know of. It does seem like there's been a general uptick in major protests and uprisings worldwide lately. There's the Arab spring, of course, but also the Maidan of Ukraine and even Ferguson in the U.S. got more out of hand than people expected. I have to wonder if some of these movements are perhaps inspired by the impact others achieved. It's certainly teaching us a lot about each nation by how they react.
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Sep 29, 2014 19:20
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fart simpson posted:What I'm really interested in is the tactics and equipment used by the upcoming police response, especially once the PLA gets involved. Does anyone know if they carry tasers? The PLA (and all police forces, even chengguan I think) is trained in different kinds of crowd management. Things like choralling and diverting are a big part of it. Their extent of force probably depends on which of the military district they come from. The military district that has southwest including Tibet is known for being really rough.
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Sep 29, 2014 19:22
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Dolash posted:It does seem like there's been a general uptick in major protests and uprisings worldwide lately. There's the Arab spring, of course, but also the Maidan of Ukraine and even Ferguson in the U.S. got more out of hand than people expected. I have to wonder if some of these movements are perhaps inspired by the impact others achieved. It's certainly teaching us a lot about each nation by how they react. I was serious with my earlier question, how much have food prices in hong kong increased over the last decade?
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Sep 29, 2014 19:23
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Dolash posted:It does seem like there's been a general uptick in major protests and uprisings worldwide lately. There's the Arab spring, of course, but also the Maidan of Ukraine and even Ferguson in the U.S. got more out of hand than people expected. I have to wonder if some of these movements are perhaps inspired by the impact others achieved. It's certainly teaching us a lot about each nation by how they react. You forgot Occupy (so did everybody else).
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Sep 29, 2014 19:27
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Dolash posted:Been following this thread since the protests started getting talked about in the news, it's quite remarkable. I really hope the government decides to resolve this diplomatically with some meaningful concessions rather than use violence. I don't know much about the history of protest in China, but would these be the biggest demonstrations since Tienanmen Square? That's the only other famously large protest I know of. If this is a Chinese protest it's just one of the many other protests that went under western media's radar in the recent years. Believe it or not, not every protest is suppressed, Tienanmen style. Some of them even manage to gain some concessions. This is getting more attention because: a) It's happening in Hong Kong b) It seems to be populated by presentable middle-class people. c) It's a huge spectacle like every other kind of protest based around occupying some central area.
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Sep 29, 2014 19:27
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fspades posted:If this is a Chinese protest it's just one of the many other protests that went under western media's radar in the recent years. Believe it or not, not every protest is suppressed, Tienanmen style. Some of them even manage to gain some concessions. This is getting more attention because: The protests that are successful in China are all NIMBYist stuff, related to local quality of life issues where governments are trying to improve the local economy by doing some horribly polluting thing and the local people are now informed enough to realize it's not good to have a smelting plant in your backyard. So long as it's local and spontaneous, it's not going to get people in a lot of trouble. Once you get NGOs and outside pressure groups advocating for actual organization to fight against this kind of thing everywhere, that's when the people get arrested. But again, it's all local quality of life stuff and usually what the govt would consider a legitimate grievance. But of the whatever 200,000+ mass incidents that happen in China every year, most of them are purely of that sort, wanting something economic or environmental. But they're not political and they're not well organized. This is special because it's specifically NOT about economics, in fact it's anti-economic, they know that this isn't 'good' for Hong Kong's economy and they don't care about sacrificing 1/87th a percent of GDP growth for the year. It's purely political, it's a demand for legitimate democracy of the kind China has been saying again and again isn't right for Chinese people due to their unique historical conditions. China's line is that Chinese people don't really want democracy and there's no such thing as universal values, universal human rights, a universal sort of government (a weird position for a supposedly Marxist government to take). So when Hong Kongers fill the streets calling for exactly the sort of basic tenets of liberal democracy that the CCP says don't fit China, it really subverts their position in a way that economic and environmental protests don't. China knows they have corrupt officials, China knows their environment sucks, so they can accept that kind of thing. But this, they can't accept, because to do so destroys the entire basis for control.
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Sep 29, 2014 19:38
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It's hard to get a sense of protests sometimes because pictures don't always capture what's happening in the rest of the city. I know Occupy Wall Street was pretty self-contained and you wouldn't know about it unless you specifically went to Wall Street. Media out of context will sometimes magnify a protest's impact (especially if it fits into an existing ongoing story.) I thought this was an interesting passage from the Economist (which is critical of China in general): Economist posted:The expectation of the Communist Party's supporters in Hong Kong, including the tycoons who have long run the territory, is that pragmatism will win the day over idealism. Many bankers and business executives feel there is no chance that China’s leaders will ever compromise; they view the protests as an irritant. The response from America and Britain has been almost negligible thus far (a statement from the American consulate in Hong Kong said America did not “take sides” or support "any particular individuals or groups involved”. Many of the territory’s 7m citizens are sympathetic to the demonstrations. But in most neighbourhoods people are going about their business as usual. Even near the areas of protest the city continues to function. This is partly a testament to the restraint and sense of civic responsibility of the demonstrators (who have even picked up after their own trash and, in some cases, sorted for recycling).
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Sep 29, 2014 19:46
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Freudian posted:You forgot Occupy (so did everybody else). Yeah, this protest or at least part of it is still being called "Occupy Central with Love and Peace." Everyone forgot about it in the US, but thats the US. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 19:58
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The similarities pretty much end there to be fair. The motivating reasons for OCLP and OWS are pretty (e: ie totally) different and OCLP is much more tightly focused.
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Sep 29, 2014 20:12
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I wish Occupy had been more ballsy about interrupting commerce in NYC, but NYPD made sure they didn't interfere with the NYSE and intentionally corralled a march onto the Brooklyn Bridge to inconvenience drivers and make a mass arrest. But OWS also lacked the very clear objective of these protests.
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Sep 29, 2014 20:15
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Yeah, one of the few things that OCLP did was on the first day they put out a list of concrete demands which would theoretically be simple to undertake and most people in HK can get behind. Release the people arrested. CY Leung steps down. Apologize for the tear gas. Reform the voting system. Compare that to OWS where the 'demand' was a total reformation of society in general and the economic system in particular. Even if you agreed with those goals the anarchist undercurrent, lack of leadership and hesitation to speak on the behalf of others meant it wasn't going to be able to be turned into a political movement. OWS was a protest and remained a protest because it had no solutions either the members or society could get behind. OCLP has solutions and the people there can both make sense of and support those solutions.
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Sep 29, 2014 20:17
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Zohar posted:The similarities pretty much end there to be fair. The motivating reasons for OCLP and OWS are pretty (e: ie totally) different and OCLP is much more tightly focused. I wouldn't say that necessarily, at least in actual tactics and infrastructure you have find commonality. I would say OCLP has more in common in the way they do things with OWS than for example the Arab Spring protests or European anti-austerity protests. The motivations are different obviously and very focused, but I think people work a little too hard to forget the influences that OWS had and still seems to be having. Also, there was a big climate change march pretty recently in NYC as well. quote:Yeah, one of the few things that OCLP did was on the first day they put out a list of concrete demands which would theoretically be simple to undertake and most people in HK can get behind. Release the people arrested. CY Leung steps down. Apologize for the tear gas. Reform the voting system. Compare that to OWS where the 'demand' was a total reformation of society in general and the economic system in particular. Even if you agreed with those goals the anarchist undercurrent, lack of leadership and hesitation to speak on the behalf of others meant it wasn't going to be able to be turned into a political movement. OWS was a protest and remained a protest because it had no solutions either the members or society could get behind. OCLP has solutions and the people there can both make sense of and support those solutions. However, that makes complete sense, OCLP is about one goal: democracy while OWS was an outlet of anger about a myriad of social ills and really couldn't be about one particular issue in the same sense. If Beijing allowed open nominations, it would probably satisfy most of the protests at this point. On the other hand, there really wasn't a quick fix to the issues of OWS. Also, OWS wasn't really designed and organized in a real sense, it just happened. OWS went about as far as it could go, the more recent protest was specifically about global warming. That said, you really can't say OWS didn't have its own legacy either and to be fair, each major protest movement usually adds something to the next one that comes down the line. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 20:18
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Saw this making the social media rounds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vvxlGUki7U I came here as soon as I heard about the protests because I was thinking of some of the goons on the ground out there. Stay safe guys.
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Sep 29, 2014 20:32
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So has the Mandate of Heaven changed yet or what
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Sep 29, 2014 20:35
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Ardennes posted:I wouldn't say that necessarily, at least in actual tactics and infrastructure you have find commonality. I would say OCLP has more in common in the way they do things with OWS than for example the Arab Spring protests or European anti-austerity protests. Yes, OCLP seems to be a movement about power rather a protest about convenience. E: Smoking Crow posted:So has the Mandate of Heaven changed yet or what Everyone knows who has true Mandate of Heaven: Taiwan.
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Sep 29, 2014 20:37
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, OCLP seems to be a movement about power rather a protest about convenience. Both were about power, just one is more focused one particular type of it.
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Sep 29, 2014 20:38
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Finally got home, loaded photos, charging batteries. It's almost 4am. I'm going to crash and do a photo dump and report tomorrow. I do blame myself for being so gullible and easily alert. Honestly, this movement is super successful and rumors are abound because major communication equipment got confiscated by the police. Communications is being hampered and disinformation is being spread. However, keep calm, stay in your spot, and if you do see gas or weird poo poo, just slowly back off. Nothing violent, just raise your hands! Anyways in short: All the weird poo poo you hear is nothing more than a rumor. Everyone's peaceful (but tired), supplies are plenty, and movement is still going on. In short, a recap. If someone else can add subtitles to it that would be great, if not I guess I can do tomorrow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUBm6jTz3W4
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Sep 29, 2014 20:55
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Smoking Crow posted:So has the Mandate of Heaven changed yet or what I dunno, did Puyi have any children
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Sep 29, 2014 21:47
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Tezzeract posted:I thought this was an interesting passage from the Economist (which is critical of China in general): This is completely true. I have a lot for family and friends that are critical of the protests not because they're anti democracy or universal suffrage but because they feel that the protestors are naive and don't understand the Chinese government not to mention that the Occupy movement are using students and what was originally a student protest for their political gain. So far the movement has been super successful since all the parties involved are looking for a peaceful solution due to the importance of Hong Kong as a major financial hub and a model of an ideal SAR. That said I don't think anybody in or from Hong Kong expects any real change without Beijing's approval. The best case scenario is probably for CY to get kicked out, some kind of expanded consultation process to review the initial decision and for the nomination committee to be open to more pro HK groups that will eventually pave the way to every resident getting a vote. Its highly unlikely for Beijing to just back down and give the protestors what they want right away.
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Sep 29, 2014 22:28
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Invisible Handjob posted:This is really amazing, I no longer live in China but having spent some time this is cool to watch and I wish the best to everyone involved, stay safe guys. Tuxedo Gin posted:Most pro-independence Taiwanese are watching this as proof that there is no freedom under the CCP, even for SARs. Even the pro-China side is starting to step back and feel wary. When I was in Taiwan ~5 years ago, I was sad to see that most of the people willing to talk politics were resigned to the fact that China was eventually going to unify them, whether they wanted it or not. The protests in Taiwan gave me a lot of hope. From what I understand, there was a lot of dialogue between the Sunflower protesters in Taiwan and the Occupy Central leaders. At least one of the leaders of the Sunflower protest attempted to go to Hong Kong to meet with the Occupy leaders but was denied entry at the airport and put back on a plane to Taipei.
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Sep 29, 2014 22:43
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Small White Dragon posted:What's that mean in English? It's like testicle pain, like you're so bored your balls ache and you have nothing else better to do with your time so you do this stuff. I'm pretty interested on the Taiwanese perspective too if anyone else wants to chime in.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:05
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