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Foul Ole Ron posted:So let me get this straight. Aside from what MSP said, also keep in mind that your Archon will have to weather a full turn of enemy shooting before your DSing units can arrive (even assuming you succeed all your reserve rolls), and Dark Eldar are not traditionally known for their durability. Hollismason posted:So you can as Eldar, take that formation. Give the Archon a Webway portal that lets any unit he joins deepstrike without scatter, then put 20 or so Fire Dragons in Raiders who can also deep strike or just you know fly up at you. Space Marines have been able to do this for years with Sternguard and Combimeltas and it hasn't ruined the game. And doing it with Raiders is a lot more risky due to having to worry about scattering onto something (since you don't get the Drop Pod immunities) and a lot more vulnerable to Interceptor (because of 4+ saves rather than 3+.) It's a useful thing to have access to, but it's in no way game-breaking; if anything, it just tones down Knights slightly.
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Sep 29, 2014 20:47
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Yeah it's not just that they get Deep Strike, the vehicle itself has a 3+ cover save, plus is a Open Top Transport, so everyone on it can fire. Or it can just move up and the unit can fire. It's that you can purchase 6 of them in that formation and all you have to purchase is a ARchon who has a webway portal that allows him and the unit he is with to deepstrike without scatter and then you have to buy two dirt cheap troops. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 20:57
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Can allied units even deploy inside someone else's transport, if that transport was taken as a separate unit choice and not a dedicated transport? The battle brothers rule says that they can embark on an allied transport, but nothing about deploying in it.
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Sep 29, 2014 21:01
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Yes, they can. Centurions can get inside Drop Pods that the Space Wolves had and vice versa. There's no restriction it's just treated as a transport. So you can begin the game embarked on it or be embarked on it in reserve. It's how the hilarious Drop Pod Centurions works. Battle Brothers are basically treated as units of your army for like all game purposes pretty much, you can join them, buff them, transport them etc.. You take the Wolf Formation then buy the drop pods and stick Centurions in it. So I mean enjoy Deep Striking Objective Secured Iyanden Wraithguard that don't scatter. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 21:03
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It sucked before, but I'm really going to miss how my Hydras used to ignore cover saves from skimmers now. I think my IG are super hosed, and I was rarely able to win with them as it was. Haha, oh well... Edit: Because I'm bad.
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Sep 29, 2014 22:04
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BuffaloChicken posted:Cheap and super easy. Here's three of the four my brother made. drat, those look loving great! Foul Ole Ron posted:Ok so raiders can be taken as fast attack as well as an dedicated transport?
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Sep 29, 2014 22:05
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It's so you can transport things that don't get a dedicated option!
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Sep 29, 2014 22:08
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Also it does make absolute fluff sense for the Dark Eldar to be fully mechanised and driving out of portals.
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Sep 29, 2014 22:16
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I really want to read Codex : Powerup Eldar.
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Sep 29, 2014 22:38
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In the Dark Eldar rumors, why are there so many things that are useless against And They Shall Know No Fear? Is this a translation issue and it's meant to be Fearless or are space marines just going to be immune to a bunch of cool wargear?
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Sep 29, 2014 22:38
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Is this six Raiders full of Fire Dragons thing even something new? Couldn't you do it already by just running an unbound army? And if not, what detachment is going to let you field six squads of Dragons to put in your Raiders?
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Sep 29, 2014 23:01
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It wasn't six units of Fire Dragons, the Dark Eldar Formation allows you to take 6 FAST ATTACK, but less H. Support and Elites. That's the problem, they gave Eldar a Formation that they can just take to get open top Transports that have a 3+ jink, and can deep strike. A huge problem with a lot of the units is there's no way to really protect them or get them into assault easily. This eliminates that. Especially because of Autarchs and manipulating reserves Eldar are really good at the play the Reserve game thing.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:07
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The real problem with Eldar is that Wave Serpents have too much firepower and Wraithknights are just a little under costed. Raiders aren't going to tip it any further over the edge. With the loss of the Baron, it's a net loss.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:15
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The Baron is gone?
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Sep 29, 2014 23:17
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No model. The Dark Eldar have suffered some pretty harsh regicide.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:21
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Hollismason posted:It wasn't six units of Fire Dragons, the Dark Eldar Formation allows you to take 6 FAST ATTACK, but less H. Support and Elites. That's the problem, they gave Eldar a Formation that they can just take to get open top Transports that have a 3+ jink, and can deep strike. Did you forget your own post? Hollismason posted:So you can as Eldar, take that formation. Give the Archon a Webway portal that lets any unit he joins deepstrike without scatter, then put 20 or so Fire Dragons in Raiders who can also deep strike or just you know fly up at you. So you wanna go assault? Where are you getting all those Elite slots to fill with Eldar assault units? I guess you could go with Wraith Blades, but how big of an army are we talking about here? And again, why couldn't you just do this with an unbound list anyway?
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Sep 29, 2014 23:24
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Hollismason posted:Yes, they can. Centurions can get inside Drop Pods that the Space Wolves had and vice versa. Hahahaha, this means my 20 man tactical squads can ride in A15 Triaros armoured tractors for less than 130 extra points. oh lawd 
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Sep 29, 2014 23:31
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Mef989 posted:I really like this advice, thank you. What do you normally use for the rest of the list? I'm starting an escalation league with a few friends and like to plan our where I'd like to be at higher point levels to give myself some direction to build. Still need to work out points exactly, but was thinking something along the lines of: I'm considering some tweaks to my list at the moment (swapping in more Spiritseers?) but this is the current idea: Spiritseer 2x Wraithguard in Wave Serpent with shuriken cannon 1x Wraithblades (Axe) in Wave Serpent with shuriken cannon 2x Crimson Hunter Wraithknight with Shield/Suncannon/Scatter Laser Fire Prism Wraithlord The Wraithlord is all but useless, so like I said I'll probably swap him out for more spiritseers. The Crimson Hunters are amazing at killing any vehicles, flyer or not, but will die immediately so I usually just make sure I know what I want them to kill. I run my Wraithknight with the cannon because my army has enough anti vehicle stuff, frankly, and the 5+ really matters with most of what people shoot at a Wraithknight. I've considered running a 2nd but points are really hard to find/inflexible in Iyanden. Jetbikes are absurdly good but I don't run them because I don't like them thematically, haha. Fire Prisms either do nothing or are incredible, you'll always remember missing the crucial S9 Lance shot but forget when they wipe out 3 squads of marines in 3 turns, so. I think your list looks good, just remember when playing that your wave serpents are the key to basically everything - they have the most firepower, mobility, and objective scoring potential in the list, so your first priority is always killing what can take down your serpents. After that you can pretty much mop up, I've been incredibly successful with my Iyanden list and I'm not that good at this game. Bonus army pic: 
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Sep 29, 2014 23:53
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PeterWeller posted:Did you forget your own post? Well the main problem isn't that the Raiders are super awesome amazeballs, the problem is that their a Open Top Transport that can Deep Strike. Along wtih the fact that the Webway portal allows you to deep strike without scatter supposedly. The problem is that Eldar now have access and Dark Eldar do as well to just straight up Fast, Skimmer, Deep Striking 3+ jink vehicles. There's all kinds of weird poo poo, the Eldar codex was written at a time that they could not in fact just buy open top skimmers , the books imbalanced as it is you just gave them one of the few things in the game that allow , Assault out of a Transport, which is rare. Along with the Ability to Deep Strike. All at a incredibly low point cost. You've given Eldar the ability to Deep Strike. Formation Archon 2 Troops 6 Raiders or the Venoms ( which now can fire off 12 BS4, 4+ poisoned shots, w/ Shred) Eldar Primary Spiritseer Eldar Farseer if you want one Troops Wraithblades WraithGuard etc.... Hollismason fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Sep 30, 2014 |
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Sep 30, 2014 00:11
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Probably going to swing by dark sphere tomorrow to grab a marine kit, have people got the new stern guard and tactical sculpts? Is the sternguard box worth it? £25 for 5 models is a bit steep but the kit does look very nice!
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Sep 30, 2014 00:24
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Hollismason, you've lost your poo poo over how broken like a dozen armies are since you've been posting in this thread. You wrote a master's thesis on how Daemons were top dog. I think you worry too much.
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Sep 30, 2014 00:30
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I never said summoning was the end all be all just that it's incredibly powerful. Also, I'm not saying it breaks the game, but it is not a good thing to make a already over powered strong book like eldar more powerful. I have hard enough time dealing with Serpent Spam since my friends all think it's loving HILARIOUS to take 5 to 7 of the loving things.
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Sep 30, 2014 00:33
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MasterSlowPoke posted:Hollismason, you've lost your poo poo over how broken like a dozen armies are since you've been posting in this thread. You wrote a master's thesis on how Daemons were top dog. I think you worry too much. Finally someone said it.
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Sep 30, 2014 00:41
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Hollismason posted:I never said summoning was the end all be all just that it's incredibly powerful. And anyways, Eldar could already deep strike certain units and combinations for some time now through the Corsair list in one of the Imperial Armor books. Dropping a bunch of Fire Dragons to handle a large threat is entertaining, but every Fire Dragon Raider means one less Wave Serpent, you know? Slimnoid posted:Finally someone said it. (MSP is a cool dude, and Hollis reaaalllly needs to stop going mad with theory.)
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Sep 30, 2014 00:41
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Hollismason posted:I never said summoning was the end all be all just that it's incredibly powerful. Well, now they'll spam easily destroyed Raiders. :v: And like I keep saying, this isn't some new thing. Filling Raiders and Venoms with Eldar units was literally the first idea I had when I heard about unbound.
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Sep 30, 2014 00:44
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Raiders, Ravagers, and Venoms all have the deep strike rule and have a similar mechanic to Drop Pods. They're basically, Drop Pod : Eldar. edit: Also, I was totally right about Daemon summoning so suck it. I said it'd be overpowered and it is. Just Wave Serpent spam is even worse.
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Sep 30, 2014 00:47
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edit: f, wrong thread. ignore
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Sep 30, 2014 01:03
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Hollismason posted:Also, I was totally right about Daemon summoning so suck it. Oh, wait, they're not completely destroying the scene? The sky isn't falling? What a loving surprise, I tell you what. You take things and blow them horribly out of proportion. You're on Dakka claiming that every Eldar list will run a Dark Eldar formation in three months. You claimed Daemon Summoning wasn't that bad, then that it was OP, and you keep going back and forth, normally leaning on "way loving broken, I tried this list on Vassal and ripped a dude's dick off." You claimed Eldar were broken with summoning Daemons, just loving insane. A few weeks ago, you were claiming Chaos Terminators, of all loving things, were bonkers. You were advocating for a 400 point unit that dies to a Riptide pissing in its general direction. I'm a lovely poster. I've bitched and whined about OP stuff in the last thread. (I've gotten marginally better on that.) Hell, I even summoned "HE WHO HATES GW BECAUSE OF THE TYRANID HOLOCAUST" at the start of the slow descent into the madness of Unbound. Mostly I just go "cool conversion" or "I am bad at Dark Angels help/here are too many words on Chaos." But man, not every loving unit is OP. And when a guy of my caliber can determine that, you're way off the loving mark. HOLLISMASON. WRONG ON DAEMONS. WRONG ON ELDAR. WRONG FOR GOONS.
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Sep 30, 2014 01:11
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Thanks to units in open topped transports taking hits from template weapons, using a Crone and Hive Tyrants with electroshock grubs will absolutely murder a DE army. I imagine helldrakes, hellhounds, and dreadknights will do the same.
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Sep 30, 2014 01:12
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Von Humboldt posted:Daemon Summoning, crushing out events such as : Your right because the majority of the last major tournaments didn't have Daemon Summoning in them... oh wait they did , they just got beat by Wave Serpet spam. I dunno what your talking about with Chaos Terminators, I think your confusing it with the Obliterator thing.
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Sep 30, 2014 01:16
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Von Humboldt posted:HOLLISMASON.  
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Sep 30, 2014 01:18
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I GUARENTEE LOWER PRICES, AND A MINIMUM MODEL COUNT IN ALL FUTURE GW PRODUCTS.
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Sep 30, 2014 01:21
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you definitely talked a poo poo ton about chaos terminators w/ icon of excess and taking slaaneshi chaos sorcerers
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Sep 30, 2014 01:44
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Hollismason posted:Your right because the majority of the last major tournaments didn't have Daemon Summoning in them... oh wait they did , they just got beat by Wave Serpet spam. As for if it was Terminators or Oblits, look at this beauty. Hollismason posted:Chaos Terminators can be some of the most insane units in the game now since Chaos has access to Sanctic, They can have a 4++ save, Bounce around the field w/ GOI, use dimensional key to unlock the never scatter etc.. etc.. Also, I have to say, who ever gave you your avatar is a beautiful person. (It wasn't me, as I am not beautiful.)
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Sep 30, 2014 01:45
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Von Humboldt posted:
 BULBASAUR posted:Hahahaha, this means my 20 man tactical squads can ride in A15 Triaros armoured tractors for less than 130 extra points. Isn't it wonderful? Party Trains are the best thing since half the units have it as a DT option. I can't wait for mine.
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Sep 30, 2014 01:46
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Big ups to Scowny and Zark the Damned for coming to my gig tonight. Additional ups for the big pile of Sisters of Battle from Zark... thanks brother.
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Sep 30, 2014 01:55
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Von Humboldt posted:Ha ha, no. Eldar is strong - but it's not the natural predator of Daemon Summoning lists. There are other things that make Daemon Summoning good or bad, and other lists which are weak or strong against it. BAO and NOVA both had a smattering of Daemon lists, and it wasn't exclusively Wave Serpents making GBS threads on their chests. Telling me that Wave Serpent Spam is OP enough to crush your beloved Daemons and everything else tells me that you like to pick something and panic about it, since Eldar can do a few other lists which are brutal as gently caress and which STILL lose in certain match ups or situations, and it ignores that there are other strong lists that gently caress up Daemon Summoning left and right. No where do I say that unit is broken other than that it can be. Also, stand by that statement and still use that squad so there. That's an awesome unit, you're a crazy person if you don't think it is. Chaos has like few and far between for good units. The Chaos Sorcerer is one of them. So are the Terminators. I mean yeah i guess if you reranged the words or eliminated the words can be from that sentence then you'd be right but otherwise there's nothing wrong with that statement. Also, you're wrong on NOVA and BAO ( I don't think there were any), the top table Chaos Daemons all lost to Eldar. http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tournament/NOVA-Open/1/leaderboard Hollismason fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Sep 30, 2014 |
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Sep 30, 2014 02:21
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Hollismason posted:No where do I say that unit is broken other than that it can be. Funny thing is, those lists aren't "Daemon Summoning" lists. They're lists that can summon Daemons and have a different game plan to win. For gently caress's sake, the top Chaos Daemon list looks to be a Screamstar with Knights playing back-up. Most of the other Chaos Daemon lists look to be Flying Circus variants. Another one has massed Fiends and Hounds, which was popular when Chaos Daemons first dropped as a list. I'm sure they summon daemons to shore up scoring, but they're not "Demon Summoning" lists by any stretch of the imagination, unless you want to argue that a Chaos Daemon player taking some Horrors as troops is a "Daemon Summoning" list. Other strong Eldar lists include as few as two Wave Serpents and often have other win conditions, such as some sort of loving deathstar. Not to mention the top Necrons lost to Eldar - are they so OP that Eldar keep them down? And this completely ignores how Chaos Daemons - with a lot of similar lists to what we see at NOVA - have done well in tournaments for some time! So basically, lists that aren't what you think they are got beat by lists that aren't what you think they are. It's like me going "Space Marines are OP" when I run a bunch of Terminators on Foot and then some guy with a swole Chapter Master wins a bunch - I mean, same army, right? And don't try to shift to "heh, well SUMMONING Daemons is OP, I didn't know you were looking for a specific list," because all you have been going on for months, and wrote a loving thesis about, is a list designed around dumping models all over the table like an ill man taking a poo poo in a hallway before he can reach the toilet. By the way, that unit is still bad. It requires too many loving points and too much work to be something that implodes when a Riptide aims at it, or your Sorcerer decides to piss himself and roll up poo poo powers. Terminators are good. Sorcerers are good. They can be good together. But getting them more expensive than a loving Knight is not a way to make them good. Don't get me wrong, you can like bad units. I like my Defiler. I run that fucker all the time. But I don't pretend it's "good" or people are "crazy" if they think spending 200 points on a dopey walker is bad, because there are multiple things in book I could take for fewer points and better effect. At this point, I'm only contributing to you talking more about Daemons. Deliver some sort of parting shot if you want, but for the love of Christ, post a picture of a model or something in the future, or discuss something besides what flavor of the loving month you think is over powered. We'd all be richer for it.
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Sep 30, 2014 03:15
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Oh well I'm sorry me making a few posts regarding something I think is a bit overpowered made you so butt hurt you had to come bursting in and demanding that I be held accountable for my opinions. It's also loving creepy to follow me on other forums over space men.
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Sep 30, 2014 03:23
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Keep going guys. This is hilarious 
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Sep 30, 2014 03:24
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