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In Elona my male characters keep getting pregnant.
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Oct 1, 2014 15:35
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Potsticker posted:In 2014, allowing a gender choice is still pretty progressive for roguelikes. What? Nethack had "pick your character's gender" back in 1987.
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Oct 1, 2014 15:57
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ToxicFrog posted:What? Nethack had "pick your character's gender" back in 1987. And Crawl does it the other way: it doesn't ask you because it doesn't matter. The only beings with specified genders are (some) unique enemies. Yours, the gods', and generic enemies are intentionally unstated (they renamed the mermaid enemy recently).
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Oct 1, 2014 16:08
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Tollymain posted:Crawl is funny because your character's apparent gender is not something you control, nor is it something that is ever even distinguishable unless you really want to find out. it's possible to find out your gender in crawl?
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Oct 1, 2014 16:11
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Guys, what the hell. No matter who's right and who's wrong, can we keep this out of here please.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:13
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Jack Trades posted:Guys, what the hell. Yes heaven forbid we discuss how gender in gaming (a hugely relevant recent issue) affects our little nerd corner.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:18
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..btt posted:I don't get it. Men and women, who are in fact different in real life, are represented differently in silly game ways in silly games. Does this genuinely upset anybody? Do you also rage that succubi and incubi in nethack are all heterosexual? Or that only females can lay eggs? No one should be made to feel penalized for wanting to play a character who looks like them. And 99% of gender difference stats in videogames are ~biotruths~ - what on earth kind of justification can someone give for telling me that, because I want to play a male character, my accuracy stat is never going to be as high as it would be for a female character?
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Oct 1, 2014 16:18
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andrew smash posted:Yes heaven forbid we discuss how gender in gaming (a hugely relevant recent issue) affects our little nerd corner. Sure thing, like you said it's a relevant issue right now, but is this thread really the right place for that? A roguelike thread of all places.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:22
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Jack Trades posted:Sure thing, like you said it's a relevant issue right now, but is this thread really the right place for that? since it came up with regard to a roguelike, yes. Anyway, that bastion of progressive ideas and social justice that is dungeons and dragons has been getting this right for like four decades, it's dumb as poo poo that it's still a thing in other similar games.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:25
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This is worse than the what is a roguelike derails we usually get. If you pick a male character the entire game should be monochrome. Then if you pick a female character you should have a lessened chance of heart attack. Realism in games is fun.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:26
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andrew smash posted:it's possible to find out your gender in crawl? The only thing I can think of is whether you use the left or right hand tile in the tiles version.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:29
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I think at this point we have hit every keynote in this highly important highly serious discussion.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:30
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Jack Trades posted:Sure thing, like you said it's a relevant issue right now, but is this thread really the right place for that? Gender issues in other game genres generally takes the form of sexualization of characters, differing capabilities for romantic interests, or simply the inability to play a female character when given the option of customizing your character's appearance. Roguelikes are uniquely unsuited for any of those topics, so the relevant discussion is going to be stats, and I've seen many more examples of stat differentiation in roguelikes than in any other genre.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:31
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MrBims posted:No one should be made to feel penalized for wanting to play a character who looks like them. It's true, it infuriates me to no end that every roguelike cripples my character's intelligence and spellcasting abilities when I pick a troll or an ogre.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:32
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How is Keeper RL? Saw the web page and thought Dwarf Fortress+Dungeon Keeper, but I'm pretty sure that if I download it the dream will shatter, crash and burn.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:33
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I dunno, when I play an RPG I don't play to insert my RL persona into the game, I play it to role play a character within the context of the game. I'm not a barbarian either, I don't complain that they are stronger than a wizard. I find only playing your own gender odd. Do you also only play as a fat nerd character? At end of the day, it's not even inaccurate the most part - men are physically stronger than women. Not every man is stronger than every woman, but generally speaking. I don't know why anyone would feel that's some kind of ~biotruth~ or insulting to women. As I alluded to in my previous post, female characters are rarely worse than male characters. They're just different. They are in real life too. It adds flavour. What's the problem? I would understand if truly damaging stereotypes were being propagated (I'm sure there are games that do this, and I wouldn't argue with such a complaint), but I haven't seen one mentioned so far.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:34
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Because sometimes people want to play women who are physically strong, or men who are dexterous. By imposing weird backwards rear end gender stat bonuses you're not only pushing this dumbdumb idea that heroic adventurers are unable to overcome a (miniscule) preference for physical strength in one gender, you're also limiting the number of potential choices for one gender for no reason. Comparing them to classes or even races isn't really accurate, unless you want to try and say that the biological differences between men and women are just as relevant as an Ogre and a Elf or a Wizard and a Fighter. No one is saying women and men aren't genetically inclined to do certain things better than the other, it's just that genetic inclination isn't that strong and shouldn't really matter when you're talking about mythological beings. As for the damaging stereotypes, women being physical weaklings who can't fight is kind of a Bad Thing(tm) and someone already mentioned another part where Charisma = Attractiveness in Women which, again, kinda baddumb.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:46
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Well, since we are apparently going there here are my 2 cents. RPG games that do gender-based stat differences usually go for something like Men get +1 STR while Women get +1 AGI, which is realistic if you ask me, since that's a way to show the underlying physical baseline differences between genders. Male Wizards are still going to have less STR than Female Warriors or whatever, which is realistic, I guess, and since those are supposed to be role-playing games I don't see any issues with playing a female character if I want to go for an AGI min-maxing build or something. That does mean that I can't do the exact build I want and play the exact character I want but seriously who the gently caress cares. No matter if a game does gender-based stat differences or not, I think it's fair game. It's just another role-play thing tied to game mechanics.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:47
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..btt posted:I don't get it. Men and women, who are in fact different in real life, are represented differently in silly game ways in silly games. Does this genuinely upset anybody? Do you also rage that succubi and incubi in nethack are all heterosexual? Or that only females can lay eggs? I like this, actually. Nethack is too much kitchen sink (kick it!) design for me, but those are certainly ways to differentiate between genders in a way that's relatively benign, yet still has an impact. Though I'm sure that makes me cis/hetscum for not wanting gay incubi and lesbian succubi. Or making them both bisexual.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:48
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:Because sometimes people want to play women who are physically strong, or men who are dexterous. I haven't seen a single RPG game where those differences weren't small enough to ignore. That -1 potential AGI on a Male Rogue isn't gonna make any real difference to the gameplay. You don't have to min/max everything. Nemesis Of Moles posted:As for the damaging stereotypes, women being physical weaklings who can't fight is kind of a Bad Thing(tm) and someone already mentioned another part where Charisma = Attractiveness in Women which, again, kinda baddumb. I do agree that things like that are loving stupid though.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:50
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I enjoy playing roguelike video games such as binding of isaac, rouge legacy, and many others as well as other roguelike games on the computer. I believe that mario 3 for the nes entertain ment system is also a rouge like. ?
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Oct 1, 2014 16:53
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Regarding the adom thing, do you realise shop keepers are racist as well as sexist? Does this bother you? Not a loaded question, I'm genuinely interested.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:54
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..btt posted:Regarding the adom thing, do you realise shop keepers are racist as well as sexist? Does this bother you? Not a loaded question, I'm genuinely interested. Roguelike shopkeepers are traditionally enormous assholes, so this seems entirely in character.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:59
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..btt posted:Regarding the adom thing, do you realise shop keepers are racist as well as sexist? Does this bother you? Not a loaded question, I'm genuinely interested. I did not realize they were sexist! Do they charge more or something, because I never noticed any outright hostility or anything? Like I said previously, I like when there are differences that aren't just +1 STR / +1 CHA. If the NPCs react differently based on your selection of race, class or gender then I feel like that makes your choice have more meaning and leads to a more interesting experience.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:01
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Jack Trades posted:I haven't seen a single RPG game where those differences weren't small enough to ignore. That -1 potential AGI on a Male Rogue isn't gonna make any real difference to the gameplay. You don't have to min/max everything. Then what's the point? Yeah you could argue that it's saying they're more agile there's a balance neither is the weaker but it's still making assumptions of an individual along a gender line when it does nothing other than to say "WE'RE DIFFERENT" with no meaning or purpose. And makes assumptive 'BIOTRUTH' statements. Also as to why we're discussing it, learning about gender in crawl was cool, I legitimately didn't notice. This is a good discussion.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:01
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I'm confused, you guys keep talking about Crawl but it doesn't sound anything like the roguelike game Crawl? http://store.steampowered.com/app/293780/ 
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Oct 1, 2014 17:02
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Potsticker posted:I did not realize they were sexist! Do they charge more or something, because I never noticed any outright hostility or anything? You can have a game that makes a distinction on gender without casting superiority of either in one area or another. Those same interactions can still occur.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:02
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Arnold of Soissons posted:I'm confused, you guys keep talking about Crawl but it doesn't sound anything like the roguelike game Crawl? http://store.steampowered.com/app/293780/ Linley's Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is too long to type every time, hth.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:04
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Arnold of Soissons posted:I'm confused, you guys keep talking about Crawl but it doesn't sound anything like the roguelike game Crawl? http://store.steampowered.com/app/293780/ http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/
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Oct 1, 2014 17:04
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Pladdicus posted:Then what's the point? Dunno. Some developers just want to make their role-playing games more "realistic" I suppose. I'm just saying that even if that gender stat thing is in a game, it's usually something you can just ignore.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:05
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I am Otis posted:I enjoy playing roguelike video games such as binding of isaac, rouge legacy, and many others as well as other roguelike games on the computer. I believe that mario 3 for the nes entertain ment system is also a rouge like. I enjoy playing rogues in WoW. In fact, it's my favourite rogueliking game. You could even say it's very roguelike.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:10
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my dad posted:This might be a silly question, but have you considered making Dungeonmans available on GOG? It'll happen, I'm waiting until I've actually finished the game.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:12
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What does it add to a game to have gender-differentiated stats? Would it detract from a game that already had those if a patch removed them? Edit: To be clear about my point, if doing a thing one way is hurtful to some, while the other way is hurtful to none, why would you be a staunch defender of the former? SilverMike fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Oct 1, 2014 |
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Oct 1, 2014 17:12
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I am Otis posted:I believe that mario 3 for the nes entertain ment system is also a rouge like. Well, Mario does wear red...
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Oct 1, 2014 17:17
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Potsticker posted:I did not realize they were sexist! Do they charge more or something, because I never noticed any outright hostility or anything? As someone mentioned, the shopkeepers lower prices for make characters based on their Charisma, but for female characters they care about Appearance instead.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:18
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SilverMike posted:What does it add to a game to have gender-differentiated stats? Would it detract from a game that already had those if a patch removed them? Further mechanical customization of your character, in the same way that Dwarves might have higher CON or someone from a tribe on the coast of Finland is better at fishing and swimming than someone from inland Finland (who are stronger and stupider).
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Oct 1, 2014 17:18
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Jack Trades posted:Dunno. Some developers just want to make their role-playing games more "realistic" I suppose. If it is something you can ignore, why does it need to be in the game in the first place? You gotta question the motives of what led to it being there. esquilax posted:Further mechanical customization of your character, in the same way that Dwarves might have higher CON or someone from a tribe on the coast of Finland is better at fishing and swimming than someone from inland Finland (who are stronger and stupider). The fantasy example is far different from the bolded one. When you are talking about real life people it can get offensive very quickly - 'As a Black Man, you receive +5 to Basketball Playing and -5 to Literacy' would not be any less of a stereotype, but the Finland fishing one only sounds less egregious because it doesn't hit as close to home. MrBims fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Oct 1, 2014 |
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Oct 1, 2014 17:20
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Jack Trades posted:Dunno. Some developers just want to make their role-playing games more "realistic" I suppose. But realism is the argument I find weak. It's presumptive, and inaccurate. Is this really the value of the difference? Not withstanding these characters are heroes who naturally break these norms of average people. And since the value is so small, why bother including it? It's this lack of value that makes its inclusion say something.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:20
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Potsticker posted:Like I said previously, I like when there are differences that aren't just +1 STR / +1 CHA. If the NPCs react differently based on your selection of race, class or gender then I feel like that makes your choice have more meaning and leads to a more interesting experience. You could do this by selecting Traits a la Fallout. For example, a Nerd could have +1 INT and -1 STR.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:21
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esquilax posted:Further mechanical customization of your character, in the same way that Dwarves might have higher CON or someone from a tribe on the coast of Finland is better at fishing and swimming than someone from inland Finland (who are stronger and stupider). Could you not just allow everyone to tweak their stats by +1/-1 off the racial baseline and be happy with that?
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Oct 1, 2014 17:22
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