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Sergiu64 posted:See the translated post I just made, it sounds like Ukrainians have some crack troops there with a lot of back up and an ability to simultaneously counter attack with artillery, armor and air force. The airport is turning into a trap for attacking separatist & Russian forces. Definitely sounds like they have serious intel to be able to pinpoint exactly where the enemy is and when to hit them. Still sucks that they are shelling the city from the airport area though. Once again it makes it look like (I said look like) pro Russians are more cautious about civilians than Ukrainians (at the same time if they have the same mindset as Lucy Heartifilia who sounds like the queen from Alice in wonderlands "off with their heaaaaads!") I guess they do not care much
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Oct 3, 2014 10:14
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Radio Prune posted:I'm amazed they've been able to hold the airport as long as they have. Quite something considering the circumstances. I read some report which stated that the Donetsk airport has an underground bunker network from the Soviet times. Supposedly the Ukrainian forces are using it to take cover from artillery strikes and when bombing stops, just hop out and take out the attacking infantry and tanks. The tunnels are supposedly also used for counterattacks when some part of the airport is lost. Since the Ukrainian troops withstand the bombing so well thanks to the bunkers, the separatist side sometimes refers to the Donetsk airport defenders as cyborgs. I have no solid sources to confirm this and I cannot find the original article. However it would explain how the Ukrainian forces have been able to hold on for so long
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Oct 3, 2014 11:58
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Dolash posted:Would it be a more legitimate statement from a Ukrainian? Would a Baltic do? What if an American wishes death on Putin, as opposed to a Russian? A Russian ex-pat, or a Russian still within Russia? Hm, navel-gazing about who has the moral highground to say whatever stupid poo poo, now that's what the thread needed more of. His posts are godawful but if it was stuff going on in his country, happening to his friends we could, perhaps, excuse that as a sign of legitimately formed emotional duress. As is its just childish crying that contributes nothing to the thread. quote:Go gently caress yourself. quote:Let's hope for the best. Also as usual: gently caress Russia. quote:Can someone finally assassinate Putin, please? quote:Nah, I just want Putin and his murderers in Ukraine dead. But since this is not likely to happen, full economic warfare against Russia is fine, too. quote:Let's hope Russia has to pay dearly for it's crimes. quote:loving murderous bastards. quote:I have already said it: Destroy Russia's economy. Let it collapse until it is too weak to cause any more harm. quote:Send in weapons and money to Russia to prop up a resistance movement. Also send in assassins to kill key Russian leaders. LOL quote:Hmm, send IS over to Russia. Two birds with one stone as they say. quote:Sounds like Putin. quote:This. All the dead are 100% Russia's fault. None of the actions of Ukraine were a justification for starting a war. quote:Nah, I just want the country crippled until it is unable to cause further harm. Putin and his murderous dogs are the ones who deserve punishment. quote:Hmmm, what did I say about Putin and his group of murderers again? ... Ah yes, kill them all. quote:Nah, no war with Russia. Just Putin and every single member of the separatists dead. quote:Tell that Putin. Thanks. quote:Yo, gently caress this guy. Death to him and Putin. quote:I never called for the destruction of Russia though? Only for the dismantling of it's economy until it is unable to attack it's neighbors anymore. The purpose is not to harm, but to protect. quote:Oh, we're talkig about fantasy scenarios. In this case I would be for occupying Russia, executing the elite and then rebuilding a proper country with democracy, rule of law and no corruption. quote:What the gently caress? ... Death to Putin, death to the separatists? What the gently caress? Look at what he's been posting. Just the same poo poo over and over again. When does it stop being honest contributions and start becoming garbage and spam? Cliff Racer fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Oct 3, 2014 |
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Oct 3, 2014 12:05
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Cliff Racer posted:Look at what he's been posting. Just the same poo poo over and over again. When does it stop being honest contributions and start becoming garbage and spam? As long as people are still actively cheering for the torture and slaughter of thousands of innocent Ukrainians at the hands of Russia's terrorists in this thread, I'd say it's a point that needs to be made. Although neither MP nor archaeo has posted in like a month, so I guess that point's already been reached.
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Oct 3, 2014 12:58
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Finlander posted:As long as people are still actively cheering for the torture and slaughter of thousands of innocent Ukrainians at the hands of Russia's terrorists in this thread, I'd say it's a point that needs to be made. They've gone to the "Clancy Chat" thread the last time I saw. It seems that a lot of people were interested in this thread just because of "Clancy Talk".
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Oct 3, 2014 13:36
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death to putan
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Oct 3, 2014 13:59
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biggie alive in ukraine, biggie aliv and real strong wizard, kill all the rus farm animal with rap magic
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Oct 3, 2014 14:09
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What's with the separatists constantly attacking the Donetsk airport? Did they not get the message about the ceasefire or do they just like walking into a Ukrainian army meat grinder? If they need an airfield they are probably better off making a new one well within their little stronghold because at this point it's probably damaged enough that you aren't going to be landing any planes there.
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Oct 3, 2014 15:10
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The_Franz posted:What's with the separatists constantly attacking the Donetsk airport? Did they not get the message about the ceasefire or do they just like walking into a Ukrainian army meat grinder? If they need an airfield they are probably better off making a new one well within their little stronghold because at this point it's probably damaged enough that you aren't going to be landing any planes there. They don't need an airfield seeing as they don't have any planes to land and they can get Russian air support from across the border just fine.
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Oct 3, 2014 15:34
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According to this article (at the bottom, last paragraph), members of the Council of Europe have demanded an immediate withdrawal of foreign (=Russian) troops from Ukraine and a reestablishment of its souvereignty. Looks like the diplomatic language is getting even rougher now.
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Oct 3, 2014 15:36
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They probably don't want the Ukrainians to hold a repairable and reinforced airfield right next to Donetsk, easy to get reinforcements in and use it as a base for whatever.
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Oct 3, 2014 15:41
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Pimpmust posted:They probably don't want the Ukrainians to hold a repairable and reinforced airfield right next to Donetsk, easy to get reinforcements in and use it as a base for whatever. Yeah, given how the
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Oct 3, 2014 15:47
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SA_Avenger posted:Definitely sounds like they have serious intel to be able to pinpoint exactly where the enemy is and when to hit them. The separatists who shelled the red cross, shot down a civilian airplane and kill and torture dissenters are more cautious than the Ukrainian army?
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Oct 3, 2014 17:34
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The OSCE has apologized for an incident captured on photo where two men in camouflage where seen entering their vehicle. Also in today's report they stated they chastized a Russian military officer(!) who was wearing an OSCE patch on his uniform and carrying "an ID card with the OSCE logo".
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Oct 3, 2014 17:47
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I don't think the airport is very useful as an airport, given that the Russian agents and assorted terrorists have Buks and MANPADs at their disposal. The Ukrainian Air Force lost too many of their operational aircraft already. But the location is obviously easy to defend and its proximity to Donetsk city makes its continued Ukrainian control a thorn in the Russian agents' hide.
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Oct 3, 2014 17:47
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Yeah any airborne insertion kinda deal like in the early days of this conflict is pretty much theoretical at this point, doesn't mean the Russians aren't aware of the possibility and are trying to preempt any Ukrainian attempt to turn the place into something more than a bunker complex. Then again, there's no way to be sure of anything when it comes to Donetsk airport, or just how much stuff the Russians are throwing at it. Is it really waves of companies assaulting on a weekly basis like in that supposed retelling, or are they tossing a couple of rocket barrages at it and playing peak-a-bo with snipers/machineguns? Seems kinda half-assed if they *really* want it, Elite-Clancy defenders or not 
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Oct 3, 2014 17:53
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The_Franz posted:What's with the separatists constantly attacking the Donetsk airport? Did they not get the message about the ceasefire or do they just like walking into a Ukrainian army meat grinder? If they need an airfield they are probably better off making a new one well within their little stronghold because at this point it's probably damaged enough that you aren't going to be landing any planes there. Apparently, if the videos have any truth in them they are shelled from the airport and probably would want to secure it anyway in case any agreement is made that freezes the frontline Lucy Heartfilia posted:The separatists who shelled the red cross, shot down a civilian airplane and kill and torture dissenters are more cautious than the Ukrainian army?
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Oct 3, 2014 17:56
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SA_Avenger posted:Amnesty condemned Ukraine's army for indiscriminate shelling so I'm not sure what's your point Ukraine bad. Ukraine not as bad as Russia. You understand? I don't think a person looking at this conflict and saying that the Ukrainian army acts worse than the separatists would get it though. Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Oct 3, 2014 |
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Oct 3, 2014 20:06
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SA_Avenger posted:Apparently, if the videos have any truth in them they are shelled from the airport and probably would want to secure it anyway in case any agreement is made that freezes the frontline We've got photographic evidence now of the Russians using civilians as shields. It now makes a lot more sense why Ukraine might end up shelling a residential area, if they've been taking grad or MG fire from it. Beyond that, they've got to know that the majority of Ukrainians in the east are being held more or less at gunpoint and that killing them intentionally wouldn't help matters.
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Oct 3, 2014 20:21
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Nilbop posted:What is this?  This all about victorious Ukrainian army that fully takes control over Donetsk airportThe Victory is so close. There is no casualties (c) Tymchuk
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Oct 3, 2014 20:49
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TeodorMorozov posted:
Remember, because TeodorMorozov is Russian, this sentiment has a lot more legitimacy than anything we think and should be respected in a totally-not-parternalistic way. He doesn't know any better!
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Oct 3, 2014 22:17
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Why Ukrainians don't trust the country's judiciary/law enforcement system, some examples: 1) Berkut commander suspected of killing 39 peaceful protestors goes before judge, gets... house arrest as pre-trial detention since he has a family. 2) Fails to show up for court appearances many times. 3) They finally decide to send some officers to fetch him... Suspect's tracking bracelet at home, he is nowhere to be found. Example #2: 1) Man gets convicted for 5 years in jail for separatism. 2) It gets downgraded to 3 years probation for supposedly cooperating. 3) Next day he is in occupied Crimea.
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Oct 3, 2014 22:32
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I like the bit where the 2 soldiers are emptying their automatic rifles while standing in the wide open. 
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Oct 4, 2014 01:15
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Batham posted:I like the bit where the 2 soldiers are emptying their automatic rifles while standing in the wide open. While someone walks through (slightly under?) their line of fire 
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Oct 4, 2014 01:39
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I wonder if the reason casualties are so enormous for Russians attacking the Donetsk airport is simply the difference between offensive and defensive warfare — if you have two rag tag armies with poor coordination, battle will favor the defender. An offense is harder to coordinate than a defense. That, and pre-dialed artillery coordinates.
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Oct 4, 2014 01:46
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That's what doesn't add up, everyone knows that attacking a strongpoint in a head-on assault is going to fail if the enemy can just move in reinforcements at will. They could throw a tactical nuke at the place and still not be able to take it. You'd think they'd have better areas to spend a battalion(s) worth of men at.
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Oct 4, 2014 07:16
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Ukraine bad. Ukraine not as bad as Russia. You understand? I said look like and the reason is simply that Ukrainian army is expected another standard/behavior than rebels which is exactly what Amnesty said. You say Ukraine not as bad as Russia and it's true in the way that Russia is the invader but Ukraine could have looked good by not fighting at all (I don't believe anyone should die for borders). Cocoa Ninja posted:I wonder if the reason casualties are so enormous for Russians attacking the Donetsk airport is simply the difference between offensive and defensive warfare — if you have two rag tag armies with poor coordination, battle will favor the defender. An offense is harder to coordinate than a defense. That, and pre-dialed artillery coordinates. SA_Avenger fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Oct 4, 2014 |
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Oct 4, 2014 08:00
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SA_Avenger posted:I said look like and the reason is simply that Ukrainian army is expected another standard/behavior than rebels which is exactly what Amnesty said. If they weren't fighting Novorosdiya would be a reality now. The separatists are also using the same unguided rockets and artillery as the Ukrainian army without any regard for civilian lives. The Ukrainian army is defensive and only fights back when attacked. They protect the Ukrainian people. The separatists are the ones still trying to invade the homes of even more Ukrainians and bring war and death to them.
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Oct 4, 2014 08:08
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Is the report regarding the Russian Regulars being used to attack the airport, taking a part, then being repelled seen as credible at this point? Its pretty astonishing if so, which sort of calls its relation to actual events into question.
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Oct 4, 2014 08:15
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We've only had one unconfirmed "report" so far, from what I could find, so no way to know.
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Oct 4, 2014 08:43
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:If they weren't fighting Novorosdiya would be a reality now. The separatists are also using the same unguided rockets and artillery as the Ukrainian army without any regard for civilian lives. The Ukrainian army is defensive and only fights back when attacked. They protect the Ukrainian people. The separatists are the ones still trying to invade the homes of even more Ukrainians and bring war and death to them. As of your claim that the Ukrainian only fire back... comon we all know it's not true, if you think they protect Ukrainian people by firing non precise artillery in civilian areas (human shields or not, you do not shoot on civilians) then I am not sure what to tell you. Anyway you have been going for months with "kill em all" shouts so I don't expect you to agree to anything I say. I just think the whole thing is a mess and will cause more harm than good. I am convinced that everybody would have been better off by letting russia take whatever it wants, sticking with international sanctions and that's it, who knows what will happen in 10-20 years anyway.
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Oct 4, 2014 08:45
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You can't be loving serious. The Ukrainian army is protecting the rest of the Ukrainians from Putins murderers. You want the oppression that's happening in the invaded territories to happen to millions more Ukrainians? Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Oct 4, 2014 |
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Oct 4, 2014 08:47
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SA_Avenger posted:I wouldn't care if Novorussia was a thing now, you think it's worth people dieing for that? But I understand that the majority of the people think sovereignty is a thing even considering all the crazy borders drawn and the problems they cause in the middle east right now. If one cares for human lifes then one will always chose a path to avoid war. This is such an stupid outlook I am at a loss for words. It's pure loving idiocy. "No really, you'll be better off if you just sit down and be a serf for the country that invaded you without provocation. It's okay, maybe in 10 or 20 years you'll be free again, or not, who knows." Russia is a poo poo hole and on a societal level Russians are terrible people, in the Ukrainian position I would much rather die fighting them than surrender to their 'mercy'. Just look at the poor loving Tatars. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Oct 4, 2014 |
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Oct 4, 2014 08:51
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SA_Avenger posted:I wouldn't care if Novorussia was a thing now, you think it's worth people dieing for that? But I understand that the majority of the people think sovereignty is a thing even considering all the crazy borders drawn and the problems they cause in the middle east right now. If one cares for human lifes then one will always chose a path to avoid war. This isn't pacifism. Pacifism has an aim. What you're suggesting is for Russian aggression to be left unchecked. It doesn't matter how pacifist you are when the bear knocks down your door and declares your internal organs are Russian citizens. It makes no sense for Ukraine to lie down and allow their land to be taken. It makes no sense for other countries to allow Russia to do what it wants and extend its power, influence and borders towards them.
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Oct 4, 2014 08:59
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OddObserver posted:Why Ukrainians don't trust the country's judiciary/law enforcement system, some examples: It is actually very simple, as long as you have money and/or connections you can get out of either Kievan or Seperatist jail. Of course you need different connections for getting our of a seperatist jail then for getting out of a Kievan jail, the money is the same though. The deal with the Berkut commander was propably like "oh gosh, we cant actually prove anything that would hold up in court, let him run to spare us the embarassment and make him look guilty". It is also possible that he got dissappeared by someone instead of disappearing himself. Depending on what actually happened, and what the guy knew/could prove/"agreed to tell about the whole thing", a surprising variety of powerfull people would want him disappeared. Example 2 may have been an informal prisoner swap. Dude propably just needed some time to come up with his ransom money. Especially since he propably was just a political prisoner and not actually threatening. Note that ransom money is propably a better thing than jailing people as far as an eventual reconciliation is concerned.
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Oct 4, 2014 11:42
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Cocoa Ninja posted:I wonder if the reason casualties are so enormous for Russians attacking the Donetsk airport is simply the difference between offensive and defensive warfare — if you have two rag tag armies with poor coordination, battle will favor the defender. An offense is harder to coordinate than a defense. That, and pre-dialed artillery coordinates. The seperatist made major gains by attacking where the Kievans were weak. Often bypassing roads and going through the green. They then used Sabotage and reconaissance groupings to interdict suppliest and reinforcements for the bypassed Kievan front line units, until those bypassed units were degraded enough to by attackable conventionally. The airport is a fortified stronghold, got reinforced, and is supplied by air. Due to the ongoing shelling of Donetsk from the Airport, they couldnt afford to ignore it forever since they cannot establish themself as the authorities/protectors/"people in charge" while daily shelling is going on. Kievs writ over the area matters as long as they can keep killing civilians in plain sight with impunity. Of course, there are also internal Dynamics at play. Whoever frees the airport and thus ends Kievan shelling of Donetsk gains very major popular props, and could propably translate this into serious influence later on. They thus had to attack, which is propably "just as planned" for the Kievan side. Some seperatists are also claiming that Strelkovs people were led into a trap, but well, the seperatists as a group were only held together by Kievs artillery and Propaganda lies, if Kiev wised up a bit they can exploit internal frictions. Especially by only shelling places only aligned to some groups, but not places aligned to other groups. After all, you have communists, anarchists, nationalists, particularists, foreign intervening forces, Oligarch mercanies and parts of the mob (borders between those are fluid) they can agree on "gently caress Kiev" but thats it. Strategically, Moscow is betting that the winter will degrade the Kievan side enough to achieve an improved position. Parts of the Seperatists disagree, some seek battle when they were victorious, and seek to creat a Novorussija which is large enough to be independent of both Ukraine and Russia. Factions within Moscow want a Novorussija large enough to be independent of Ukraine, but not large enough to be independent of Russia.
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Oct 4, 2014 12:02
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:You can't be loving serious. Pretty much this. Have you even heard of the term "Carthaginian Peace"? It's where peace does so much more damage to a state than even the worst war can possibly do. Comes from the Punic Wars, where Carthage sued for peace, got it for a century or so while it got weaker and Rome got stronger, until the peace expired and Rome just immediately declared war and crushed Carthage almost without a fight. As Tacitus said "A bad peace is even worse than war." And Russia historically considers itself the Third Rome... Lying back and thinking of England is not a strategy to use in war, or even diplomacy. Cetea fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Oct 4, 2014 |
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Oct 4, 2014 12:30
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At about 11:20, Alexander G. talks about his son playing World of Tanks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXac73Oox0U
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Oct 4, 2014 14:18
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I am usually good at explaining crazy Russian political art but even I don't know what the gently caress does this picture with Strelkov mean
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Oct 4, 2014 14:35
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He's holding a mandrake plant, which is poisonous and used for different reasons throughout history, including sorcery. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake_(plant)
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Oct 4, 2014 14:56
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